Is Miguel Cabrera the best hitter ever

[broncosmitty]

There probably are stats to prove that it is indeed actually not annoying as fuck.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I am sure I could, but if I don't spend my entire life finding every tiny little meaningless stat and quote them in every single post, you get douche canoes like smarther who says that homeruns, batting average, RBI's are all meaningless stats. So I need to tell you what Trout's OPS+, in day games, after the allstar game, played at home to be able to post here.

Which was never said by anyone in this thread...if you're interpreting smarther saying 'the triple crown stats aren't the most important' as 'the triple crown stats are meaningless,' then there's an issue with your interpretation, no?

 

[Wazmankg]

Saying he hit .257 in September is misleading. It ignores the last three days of the season which brings his Sept./Oct. average up to .289.

Still, remind me why we're only looking at batting average? For a leadoff hitter?

Including his last few games with respect to his value to his team is also slightly misleading given they were eliminated on Oct 1st. There's no doubt that he tailed off considerably in August & Sept. when his team was fighting for their playoff lives. Now he's definitely validated his worth this season proving he was no 2+ month wonder that some (me, for instance) argued might be the case. But at the time he was a guy who had 2 amazing months and 2 decidedly non-mvp ones during a very important time for his team while Miggy raked all year.

 

[Steelboy84]

Pujols the best I have ever seen.

 

[da55bums]

Pujols the best I have ever seen.

Pujols, Bonds and actually Vlad Guerrero (the guy would never NOT swing, don't know how he hit the stuff he did)

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Because I don't feel like rattling off the 98 stats that you sabermetric assholes look for. His OPS dropped 100 points compared to his season average in August and September and struck out nearly 25% of his plate appearances. God these boards are just as douchey as the ESPN boards were. I love baseball but the casual fan can't come here because of pricks like you smarther.

His .900 OPS still isn't "floundering", even if it's his lowest month of the season.

The casual fan can come here all they want, just prepared for back-and-forth and relevant discussion. No one's being a douche, just correcting obvious, glaring mistakes. If you have an uninformed opinion, be prepared to be called on it. I'd expect the same if I posted on the Michigan State board.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I am sure I could, but if I don't spend my entire life finding every tiny little meaningless stat and quote them in every single post, you get douche canoes like smarther who says that homeruns, batting average, RBI's are all meaningless stats. So I need to tell you what Trout's OPS+, in day games, after the allstar game, played at home to be able to post here.

Remind me again where I said that HR were a meaningless stat? Or that any of those stats were meaningless, for that matter?

Oh, I didn't? Ever? I see. So you're just going to put words in my mouth as if I said anything close to those things. But I'm a douche canoe. Noted.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Driving runs in is scoring runs. What good does it do for a player to get on base without a batter that can drive him in?

On offense, it's all about putting runs on the board. Unless you're Ty Cobb, you won't be stealing home often. The player on base will need help.

"Driving in runs is scoring runs"??? What does that even mean?

You realize a run can score without an RBI, right? And that it happens very often? Hell, the Yankees did it just last night, as did the Twins, Nationals and Phillies.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

The Dodgers won 7-4 last night. They only had 4 RBI. The Rockies also had 4 RBI.

The Angels scored 1 run in their game last night. 0 RBI.

7 teams just last night had more runs scored than RBI. That's just one night.

Teams have won games without driving in a run. Teams have won games while driving in fewer runs than the opponent.

 

[Howie115]

They don't decide games by RBI, they decide them by R. So if you're going to put a counting stat that accounts for runs, then the stat should be runs scored rather than RBI. Still, runs scored are influenced by a number of factors a hitter can't control.

Most of the time, a runner doesn't score without some help in the lineup behind him. Yeah, some score on errors, WPs and double-plays, but to use that fact to discount the clutch hitters in the league is ludicrous. Name me 5 guys who have hit a combined .381 with RISP over the last two seasons, as Cabrera has. I could get with a "runs produced" stat that adds Runs and RBI. Cabrera would have won that 248 to 202, though in 50 more at-bats than Trout.

 

[Howie115]

Pujols the best I have ever seen.

Pujols' stats through his first 10 seasons were better across the board than Miguel's. So I couldn't argue with picking Pujols as the best. We will have to see if Cabrera experiences the same post-30 decline as Pujols or if he keeps it going for a few more seasons.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Most of the time, a runner doesn't score without some help in the lineup behind him. Yeah, some score on errors, WPs and double-plays, but to use that fact to discount the clutch hitters in the league is ludicrous. Name me 5 guys who have hit a combined .381 with RISP over the last two seasons, as Cabrera has. I could get with a "runs produced" stat that adds Runs and RBI. Cabrera would have won that 248 to 202, though in 50 more at-bats than Trout.

But simply the stats runs and RBI does not tell me how a run is produced.

Player A walks
Player B doubles, Player A goes to third
Player C grounds out, Player A scores

Player A gets a run, Player C gets an RBI

Player B did the most to produce that run yet doesn't get a run nor RBI.

 

[MI Nightmare]

"Driving in runs is scoring runs"??? What does that even mean?

You realize a run can score without an RBI, right? And that it happens very often? Hell, the Yankees did it just last night, as did the Twins, Nationals and Phillies.

You can't understand the importance of RBIs? There are a number of other ways to score but nearly all are a result of the opposition's failure to play sound baseball. I'm not sure why you would think leaving it up to chance is more important than a run batted in.


You may understand the rules and math but I don't think you understand the fundamentals of baseball. The percentages, ratios, formulas, and means are endless, and sometimes useful, but the most important aspect of offense is hitting the ball in order to get on base, while moving players around the path and across the plate, and scoring oneself. A base hit, for example, is greater than a base on balls or hit by pitch, especially with runners on base. If you can't see why then you probably never played ball, or simply couldn't hit the ball. A batter goes to the plate with the intention of getting on base but more importantly getting a hit, scoring the runners on base and scoring himself. That is why BA, HRs and RBIs are the three, singular, top offensive categories. They are the most significant and difficult to achieve and require no assistance from the opponent.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You can't understand the importance of RBIs? There are a number of other ways to score but nearly all are a result of the opposition's failure to play sound baseball. I'm not sure why you would think leaving it up to chance is more important than a run batted in.


You may understand the rules and math but I don't think you understand the fundamentals of baseball. The percentages, ratios, formulas, and means are endless, and sometimes useful, but the most important aspect of offense is hitting the ball in order to get on base, while moving players around the path and across the plate, and scoring oneself. A base hit, for example, is greater than a base on balls or hit by pitch, especially with runners on base. If you can't see why then you probably never played ball, or simply couldn't hit the ball. A batter goes to the plate with the intention of getting on base but more importantly getting a hit, scoring the runners on base and scoring himself. That is why BA, HRs and RBIs are the three, singular, top offensive categories. They are the most significant and difficult to achieve and require no assistance from the opponent.

And the "most important" part of pitching is winning the game, but that doesn't mean wins are the best measure of a pitcher's quality.

 

[MI Nightmare]

The Dodgers won 7-4 last night. They only had 4 RBI. The Rockies also had 4 RBI.

The Angels scored 1 run in their game last night. 0 RBI.

7 teams just last night had more runs scored than RBI. That's just one night.

Teams have won games without driving in a run. Teams have won games while driving in fewer runs than the opponent.

Ok, so that means 23 teams had equal runs to RBIs?

 

[StanMarsh51]

You can't understand the importance of RBIs? There are a number of other ways to score but nearly all are a result of the opposition's failure to play sound baseball. I'm not sure why you would think leaving it up to chance is more important than a run batted in.


You may understand the rules and math but I don't think you understand the fundamentals of baseball. The percentages, ratios, formulas, and means are endless, and sometimes useful, but the most important aspect of offense is hitting the ball in order to get on base, while moving players around the path and across the plate, and scoring oneself. A base hit, for example, is greater than a base on balls or hit by pitch, especially with runners on base. If you can't see why then you probably never played ball, or simply couldn't hit the ball. A batter goes to the plate with the intention of getting on base but more importantly getting a hit, scoring the runners on base and scoring himself. That is why BA, HRs and RBIs are the three, singular, top offensive categories. They are the most significant and difficult to achieve and require no assistance from the opponent.

OPS takes into account BA and HR's, in addition to other things (ability to walk, non-HR extra base hits), so I'm not sure why either of those individually are considered more important than OPS when OPS creates a better overall picture.

I mean, using just AVG, HR, RBI, you'd get the impression that Adrian Gonzalez' 2011 was close to Miguel Cabrera, but Cabrera was much better.

Gonzalez - .344 AVG, 30 HR, 105 RBI, 1.033 OPS
Cabrera - .338 AVG, 27 HR, 117 RBI, 0.957 OPS

 

[MI Nightmare]

And the "most important" part of pitching is winning the game, but that doesn't mean wins are the best measure of a pitcher's quality.

Are we talking the pitching triple crown? There are some big differences.

 

[rokketmn]

A base hit, for example, is greater than a base on balls or hit by pitch, especially with runners on base. If you can't see why then you probably never played ball, or simply couldn't hit the ball. A batter goes to the plate with the intention of getting on base but more importantly getting a hit, scoring the runners on base and scoring himself. That is why BA, HRs and RBIs are the three, singular, top offensive categories. They are the most significant and difficult to achieve and require no assistance from the opponent.

Nice explanation. I am also of the belief that a walk is not always as good as a hit, and that OBP and OPS numbers get artificially inflated by walks in instances where they are not helpful.

For instance, and intentional walk (or an unintentional "intentional" walk). The opposing pitcher and manager get exactly the result they want in an at bat, while taking the bat out of the hands of a good hitter. I don't know what the actual numbers are for the results AFTER that walk, but my guess is that they heavily favor the pitcher. I want my hitter (let's use Miggy in this example) to get the chance to swing the bat.

Now this example is something that is completely out of the hitter's hands. He is not going to swing at pitches way out of the zone. What drives me nuts is when I see a hitter in the middle of the order taking close pitches and drawing a walk with a runner in scoring position and lesser hitters coming up after him. Once again, this benefits the pitcher most of the time. Sometimes you just need a groundout or fly ball to get that runner home. The batter sacrifices his average, OBP, and OPS, but he actually produced a run that is now less likely to score without him at the plate.

It's all about the situation when an at bat occurs, and not simply accumulating walks to boost OBP.

 

[rokketmn]

OPS takes into account BA and HR's, in addition to other things (ability to walk, non-HR extra base hits), so I'm not sure why either of those individually are considered more important than OPS when OPS creates a better overall picture.

I mean, using just AVG, HR, RBI, you'd get the impression that Adrian Gonzalez' 2011 was close to Miguel Cabrera, but Cabrera was much better.

Gonzalez - .344 AVG, 30 HR, 105 RBI, 1.033 OPS
Cabrera - .338 AVG, 27 HR, 117 RBI, 0.957 OPS

You have the OPS numbers reversed. It is Miggy with the 1.033 and A-Gone with the .957.

If I were just looking at the Triple Crown stats, I would draw the conclusion that A-Gone was about the same as Cabrera. There is little differentiation in the stats.

But, a look further shows that Cabrera walked much more while only scoring 3 more runs. Was he really that much more productive?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Most of the time, a runner doesn't score without some help in the lineup behind him. Yeah, some score on errors, WPs and double-plays, but to use that fact to discount the clutch hitters in the league is ludicrous. Name me 5 guys who have hit a combined .381 with RISP over the last two seasons, as Cabrera has. I could get with a "runs produced" stat that adds Runs and RBI. Cabrera would have won that 248 to 202, though in 50 more at-bats than Trout.

I've never at any point discounted clutch hitters. I realize Cabrera has a special talent for big hits and would never suggest otherwise. But he is given tons of opportunities because of where he hits in the lineup and the guys who are in front of him.

Also, there are stats that measure run production, and it's a lot more than just Runs + RBI.