Indulge me: 2010 = 2024?

[msgkings322]

No. (He brought ONE of the twins here)

But he is the reason power arms sign here? Snell signed a prove it contract with a ridiculous opt out that very few other teams utilize or want anything to do with. I am SOOOOO done with the “The park is killing us” argument.

You may be done with it but the hitters aren’t

 

[tzill]

You may be done with it but the hitters aren’t

I think that's true.

We should be going all in on developing hitters in our system and signing FA arms.

 

[msgkings322]

I think that's true.

We should be going all in on developing hitters in our system and signing FA arms.

Yep, don't even bother with the thumpers in free agency, develop our own and trade for them

 

[calsnowskier]

You may be done with it but the hitters aren’t

Because we are signing all the top pitchers to very team friendly deals because they want to take advantage of the park effects.

You can’t have one side of the coin without the other side.

 

[msgkings322]

Because we are signing all the top pitchers to very team friendly deals because they want to take advantage of the park effects.

You can’t have one side of the coin without the other side.

Exactly! Use the park for what it helps and stop fighting what it hurts. Focus the FA dollars on pitching, draft and trade for power hitters. Hitters with speed that aren't home run types can also be targetted as FAs (like The Grandson Of The Wind). Don't even bother with offers to Harper, Soto, Judge, etc.

 

[calsnowskier]

Exactly! Use the park for what it helps and stop fighting what it hurts. Focus the FA dollars on pitching, draft and trade for power hitters. Hitters with speed that aren't home run types can also be targetted as FAs (like The Grandson Of The Wind)

I would be happy to accept the argument that hitters won’t sign here IF WE ABLE TO SIGN THE PITCHERS. I am still waiting for the big pitcher to sign here without us giving him a stupid contract.

 

[msgkings322]

I would be happy to accept the argument that hitters won’t sign here IF WE ABLE TO SIGN THE PITCHERS. I am still waiting for the big pitcher to sign here without us giving him a stupid contract.

I'm not sure I agree the Snell/Rodon contracts have been 'stupid'. And if they have to pay up to sign Snell after this year that's how the game works. Guys are entitled to maximize what they can get and big name pitchers can get a lot. We just have a better shot at winning those like we have a much worse shot landing the big boppers. This is hardly a controversial take.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not sure I agree the Snell/Rodon contracts have been 'stupid'. And if they have to pay up to sign Snell after this year that's how the game works. Guys are entitled to maximize what they can get and big name pitchers can get a lot. We just have a better shot at winning those like we have a much worse shot landing the big boppers. This is hardly a controversial take.

People have complained about our ability to sign hitters for 25 years (30 years?). But again, if all the hitters want to sign with small-park teams, then why isn’t every hitter signing with Cin or Col? And if that statement is true, than the converse statement that pitchers want to sign in big parks also must be true (unless you can explain why pitchers are just greedier than hitters). And if that second statement is true, why weren't we able to sign Snell to a friendly long term deal, and instead had to give him a poison pill opt-out? Why weren’t we able to attract CC back when he was a FA? How about Gaussman when he had established himself? Greinke? Scherzer? Verlander?

 

[msgkings322]

People have complained about our ability to sign hitters for 25 years (30 years?). But again, if all the hitters want to sign with small-park teams, then why isn’t every hitter signing with Cin or Col? And if that statement is true, than the converse statement that pitchers want to sign in big parks also must be true (unless you can explain why pitchers are just greedier than hitters). And if that second statement is true, why weren't we able to sign Snell to a friendly long term deal, and instead had to give him a poison pill opt-out? Why weren’t we able to attract CC back when he was a FA? How about Gaussman when he had established himself? Greinke? Scherzer? Verlander?

I mean, I guess we just see things really differently. I think it's clear we will never be first choice for big power hitters and we are able to sign big pitchers pretty frequently. But I don't have to convince you of my take, it's fine. I also am referring to how we won titles, with pitching first and foremost. Just saying let's stick with that, and also that the 2024 team we have now (unfortunately we didn't have this team all year) fits that mold.
Based on this model we should be very aggressive trying to keep Snell. He's the kind of piece you pay up for, to make our title winning model work.

 

[calsnowskier]

I mean, I guess we just see things really differently. I think it's clear we will never be first choice for big power hitters and we are able to sign big pitchers pretty frequently. But I don't have to convince you of my take, it's fine. I also am referring to how we won titles, with pitching first and foremost. Just saying let's stick with that, and also that the 2024 team we have now (unfortunately we didn't have this team all year) fits that mold.
Based on this model we should be very aggressive trying to keep Snell. He's the kind of piece you pay up for, to make our title winning model work.

But we ARENT able to “sign big pitchers pretty frequently”. We are able to get dumpster dives quite regularly, but I don’t know how unique we are on that front. I really don’t see the long list of pitchers we have been able to attract due to our park. Rodon was coming off an injury and needed to “prove it”. He was not particularly “sought after” when we signed him. Gaussman was a dumpster dive. Hicks is doing a career transformation, so it isn’t like everyone was kicking in his door to let him flip his career around. Rogers came to pitch with his wombmate. Scrabble was grossly over paid. Cueto is one example where he could fit into your argument, granted. Zito was an embarrassing over pay. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[SF11704]

Just curious. ...like to see all of your thoughts on this hypothetical signing ....

Snell is a FA looking to sign ... to start the Dodgers throw a 3 year 105M contract to the table. But we all know ... besides the money ... they also can offer an almost guaranteed playoff run as well as very possible divisional title. I also think that some of the other divisional leaders can offer the same benifits besides the money.

What can the Giants do to counter this? I don't think money alone will solve it. I think players of this caliber almost require that ... as a team you are competitive. For the past decade we have played just about 500 ball and that includes a 107-52 season. This may take a year or two before we can be called a 'winning' team again.

Adding Snell would make us an elite team as it relates to pitching, but we still need to fix our offense. Just my 2 cents ....

 

[tzill]

Exactly! Use the park for what it helps and stop fighting what it hurts. Focus the FA dollars on pitching, draft and trade for power hitters. Hitters with speed that aren't home run types can also be targetted as FAs (like The Grandson Of The Wind). Don't even bother with offers to Harper, Soto, Judge, etc.

And yet...Carlos Correa. #forevergiant

 

[tzill]

I'm not sure I agree the Snell/Rodon contracts have been 'stupid'. And if they have to pay up to sign Snell after this year that's how the game works. Guys are entitled to maximize what they can get and big name pitchers can get a lot. We just have a better shot at winning those like we have a much worse shot landing the big boppers. This is hardly a controversial take.

Counterpoint: The Zito deal was pretty stupid.

I mean, it worked out but it was stupid.

 

[calsnowskier]

And yet...Carlos Correa. #forevergiant

The Mets seemed to have agreed with the Giants on bailing on him. And he had to go back to Minnesota on a MUCH smaller contract after he was “exposed”.

Props to FZ or whomever made the decision to back out of that deal. Sure he has played well since, but no one was worried about the first few years of that contract. It was the last MANY years that caused the concern, and there is no reason to think those concerns will come to fruition.

 

[tzill]

The Mets seemed to have agreed with the Giants on bailing on him. And he had to go back to Minnesota on a MUCH smaller contract after he was “exposed”.

Props to FZ or whomever made the decision to back out of that deal. Sure he has played well since, but no one was worried about the first few years of that contract. It was the last MANY years that caused the concern, and there is no reason to think those concerns will come to fruition.

Oh agreed...we dodged a bullet there. Nonetheless, we did land a big FA bat.

Almost.

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh agreed...we dodged a bullet there. Nonetheless, we did land a big FA bat.

Almost.

By overpaying grossly for damaged goods.

Again, BIG ups to whomever put the kibosh on that signing.

 

[tzill]

By overpaying grossly for damaged goods.

Again, BIG ups to whomever put the kibosh on that signing.

I'm sure someday we'll get the story on that.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm sure someday we'll get the story on that.

You can have that story.

I want the 2016 story and the story Bum was going to tell about his breakup with the Giants back in Spring 2020. He never ended up telling that promised story.

 

[LHG]

I don't understand the FZ hate...I might be mistaken on a couple of these names but isn't he the guy who got us Snell, Ray, Fitz, Ramos, Matos, Luciano, Doval, the Rogers twins, Wade, Chapman, Bailey, Harrison, Birdsong, etc...?

Most GMs don't win titles, right now he's one of those. He's not the reason power bats won't sign here.

Of of those names, FZ's FO acquired the following:
Drafted players - Fitzgerald, Bailey, Harrison, Birdsong
Acquired in trades - Ray, Wade
Free agents signed - Snell, Taylor Rogers, Chapman

Ramos was drafted by Evans and Tyler Rogers by Sabean(!). Matos, Luciano and Doval were international amateur free agent signings by Evans.

 

[msgkings322]

Of of those names, FZ's FO acquired the following:
Drafted players - Fitzgerald, Bailey, Harrison, Birdsong
Acquired in trades - Ray, Wade
Free agents signed - Snell, Taylor Rogers, Chapman

Ramos was drafted by Evans and Tyler Rogers by Sabean(!). Matos, Luciano and Doval were international amateur free agent signings by Evans.

Yeah cal already corrected me. Still, while FZ is obviously not heading to the hall of fame, I don't think of him as that bad. C+/B- so far with some stuff I like shaping up for 2025. Keeping Snell would be a big feather in his cap and I think it's doable.