Indulge me: 2010 = 2024?

[SF11704]

Read all the posts here a few times. We are all Giant fans and also tend to confuse what we want with actual reality. IMHO I think our main issue trying to get top of the line FAs is that we are not viewed as a comptitive team in relationshup to who else is bidding. In the past 8 years we haplayed under 500 ball 6 times. 500 ball it self once and the miracle 107 win season. That is not considered to be competitive. Almost any amount of money we throw at Snell can and will be marched by any of the divisional leaders. Unless the offer is way out of line. All divisional leaders are competitive. You may think we are but the record says otherwise. I think it's imperative that we get to at least 500 ball this season. That shows we have made changes and are in a poition to improve even more. I think this is the key to the FA market.

Money will always be a factor but with any top tier FA they will get what thay want. Along wirh the money I still feel that the need to play for a winner is a critical comlonent for al.ost all FAs. It's very hard to sell next year if you are under performing now ...

 

[calsnowskier]

Read all the posts here a few times. We are all Giant fans and also tend to confuse what we want with actual reality. IMHO I think our main issue trying to get top of the line FAs is that we are not viewed as a comptitive team in relationshup to who else is bidding. In the past 8 years we haplayed under 500 ball 6 times. 500 ball it self once and the miracle 107 win season. That is not considered to be competitive. Almost any amount of money we throw at Snell can and will be marched by any of the divisional leaders. Unless the offer is way out of line. All divisional leaders are competitive. You may think we are but the record says otherwise. I think it's imperative that we get to at least 500 ball this season. That shows we have made changes and are in a poition to improve even more. I think this is the key to the FA market.

Money will always be a factor but with any top tier FA they will get what thay want. Along wirh the money I still feel that the need to play for a winner is a critical comlonent for al.ost all FAs. It's very hard to sell next year if you are under performing now ...

This is why it is more important to build the core from within (or through trades) FIRST. FA should be the frosting, not the cake.

 

[sf1giantfan]

This is why it is more important to build the core from within (or through trades) FIRST. FA should be the frosting, not the cake.

Although I agree with you 99%, the fact is most players want to win and preferably the World Series. I see just with Snell and Chap we have a chance with keeping them because of their connections to our manager and being close to home for them both. And who knows maybe they just might like playing for the Giants too.

I do prefer to build from within like we did with our somewhat recent championship seasons. But if we do that we may flounder for a few seasons as our rookies try to become stars.

The fact is Snell, Chapman and Ray’s decision to stay might partly depend what each other decides. They all might feel they have a better chance if the other stays and helps lead the team to the playoffs.

Just my opinion but I just might be right… again.

 

[calsnowskier]

Although I agree with you 99%, the fact is most players want to win and preferably the World Series. I see just with Snell and Chap we have a chance with keeping them because of their connections to our manager and being close to home for them both. And who knows maybe they just might like playing for the Giants too.

I do prefer to build from within like we did with our somewhat recent championship seasons. But if we do that we may flounder for a few seasons as our rookies try to become stars.

The fact is Snell, Chapman and Ray’s decision to stay might partly depend what each other decides. They all might feel they have a better chance if the other stays and helps lead the team to the playoffs.

Just my opinion but I just might be right… again.

Absolutely. I have no prob keeping Chap around. He likely isn’t going to demand a long, unwieldy contract, and we don’t have anyone atm kicking in the 3B door. And he brings off-field benefits. But Snell COULD cost both years AND $$, and that COULD be prohibitive. If he is willing to sign her for 4 years at league minimum, of course I am all about locking him up. Heck, I would even be OK with doubling the length of the contract, while paying him double the money on the back half of the contract (I am just THAT kind of guy, I guess). But if he requires 5 years at 200M? Pass.

 

[SF11704]

Although I agree with you 99%, the fact is most players want to win and preferably the World Series. I see just with Snell and Chap we have a chance with keeping them because of their connections to our manager and being close to home for them both. And who knows maybe they just might like playing for the Giants too.

I do prefer to build from within like we did with our somewhat recent championship seasons. But if we do that we may flounder for a few seasons as our rookies try to become stars.

The fact is Snell, Chapman and Ray’s decision to stay might partly depend what each other decides. They all might feel they have a better chance if the other stays and helps lead the team to the playoffs.

Just my opinion but I just might be right… again.

The ONLY chance of them staying is exactly what you mentioned. They will have to believe that the core of this team is worth staying for.

This is also the reason I believe that we couldnt sign Ohtani or Yamamato.. They wanted to play on a team with an estsblished core. Judge was a different story. He never intened to leave the NYY. We were just used for leverage.

 

[sf1giantfan]

The ONLY chance of them staying is exactly what you mentioned. They will have to believe that the core of this team is worth staying for.

This is also the reason I believe that we couldnt sign Ohtani or Yamamato.. They wanted to play on a team with an estsblished core. Judge was a different story. He never intened to leave the NYY. We were just used for leverage.

I agree Judge is a bastard.

 

[PolarVortex]

Interesting. Doesn't sound like a guy who won two CY awards...

Well, he's been pitching 9 years. You are going off of the only two years in which he was healthy enough not to miss a start. I'm going off of the other 7 years in which the most starts he ever made was 27 and in none of those seasons was he anything close to CY Worthy. If the guy shows some consistency and strings a few years of good health together, then I'll be a believer. But, at age 31, I just don't see that happening.

 

[SF11704]

Well, he's been pitching 9 years. You are going off of the only two years in which he was healthy enough not to miss a start. I'm going off of the other 7 years in which the most starts he ever made was 27 and in none of those seasons was he anything close to CY Worthy. If the guy shows some consistency and strings a few years of good health together, then I'll be a believer. But, at age 31, I just don't see that happening.

This is the core of LHG's concerns as they relate to Snell. When he is at the top of his game he is a Cy Worthy pitcher ... when he isn't ... he looks like a 3rd tier pitcher. If we persue him we need to be careful. No more than a 3 year contract and hope that he stays at his current level of consistency. We know he is capable ....

 

[calsnowskier]

This is the core of LHG's concerns as they relate to Snell. When he is at the top of his game he is a Cy Worthy pitcher ... when he isn't ... he looks like a 3rd tier pitcher. If we persue him we need to be careful. No more than a 3 year contract and hope that he stays at his current level of consistency. We know he is capable ....

1st, he ain’t taking a 3-year contract this time. He was forced to last year because Boras was colluded against.

And he doesn’t need to be effective for the life of his contract. But he does need to be productive ENOUGH during his good years to carry his down years. And that is where the risk is with him.

In a bubble, if we can get 2 CY or All-Star level seasons from him and another season (or two) where he just occupies a rotation spot performing at a #4 level, I would be fine giving him a 150M (4 or 5 years). If he could give us what he has shown this last month for a whole career (norm’d down, obviously, because over the last month he has been the greatest pitcher in the history of the game), that is worth 50M or so. That would pay for a HUGE chunk of whatever contract we give him.

But (and this has been my argument AGAINST signing him) we don't operate in a bubble. Assuming Ray opts in (I think this is likely, but far from a certainty) than we already have a full (if improveable) rotation for next year. Webb, Ray, Harrison, Birdsong, Hicks (with Beck, Winn, Whisenhunt, Roupp, etc). That money MIGHT be better spent on getting a 3rd OF (assuming Matos/Encarnacion do not grab the 3rd spot), replacing/resigning Chappy, getting a solid backup catcher, filling holes in the bully, getting a 2B (assuming Lucky is, in fact, just a DH) or investing in the international market (pro or amateur).

We have a solid catcher. We have a 1B who is MAYBE 1 season away from locking down that position for the next 10 years. We have a 2B with a very questionable glove. We MIGHT have our next SS. We have an aging, AS-level 3B who could be gone next season. We have 2 OF spots locked up for the foreseeable future, with no one APPARENTLY ready in the next 2 years or so to take the 3rd slot (again, Matos/Encarnacion are not zero-chance options).

We still need work, but I do think, if the sun hits the roster just right and you squint and tilt your head at the right angle, the bones might be there.

Or it could all crumble down like a house of cards. None of our current crop are “can’t miss” studs. Not a one of them.

 

[sf1giantfan]

I’m changing my vote again, or did I already do that??

 

[SF11704]

Per Cal's response ....I agree 100%. I was just iterating what LHG had been saying for a while.
WhIle I think Snell would be a great addition I also think there may be better options for a 150M investment on some of the core everyday positions. If Ray does return we will have a real good rotation. Snell would make it elite but at a rather high investment. If money is no object ... I'd go after him ....