I'd rather have Tristan or Whiteside Poll

[trojanfan12]

A shot blocker leaves his man occasionally to get the weak side shot block? This is really news. You do know every good shot blocker does the same right? You think their shot blocks are only coming on the opposing center who their guarding or is it coming on guards or forwards who they leave their man for to block a shot?

^^^This^^^

To expand a little further. Every very good to great shot blocker gets burned from time to time throughout their careers. Often, it's because they left their man to defend against a guard or forward who beat their man off the dribble, only to have that player pass to the man they left for a dunk. Usually because weakside help didn't rotate fast enough or at all. It especially happens on teams like the Heat last year who were basically a group of guys who haven't played together much. It also happens with players like Whiteside, who are in the early stages of their development and are still learning that you can't block everything. When you have both at the same time, it ends up making the shot blocker look even worse.

Porous perimeter defense can make a center look bad as well. The Lakers with Hibbert are an example. Everyone expected that he would make the defense better by giving them a paint presence. Problem was, at least for the first part of the season, the Lakers perimeter defense was so bad that opposing guards and forwards were driving to the hoop at will. There have been times Hibbert has looked like a revolving door trying to spin and move in the paint to try to defend against what was coming at him.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

You do realize that most fans watch more games of their favorite team than those guys who work on ESPN, NBATV, Yahoo, or TNT right?

You're one of those idiots who believe everything the media tells you to believe.

I've seen the media be lied to, to report to idiots like him.

 

[Heatles84]

As Trojan suggested, why not GTFO of SportsHoopla and post with your reporters?
Again,
1. Read the thread.
2. Look at the voting
3. Read the comments.

Only person you impress is yourself.

The thing about "experts" are, they're right as much as posters on this forum or any forum. I've seen some asinine shit come out of the mouths of some of these "experts" who are paid to do what they do.

 

[WiggyRuss]

^^^This^^^

To expand a little further. Every very good to great shot blocker gets burned from time to time throughout their careers. Often, it's because they left their man to defend against a guard or forward who beat their man off the dribble, only to have that player pass to the man they left for a dunk. Usually because weakside help didn't rotate fast enough or at all. It especially happens on teams like the Heat last year who were basically a group of guys who haven't played together much. It also happens with players like Whiteside, who are in the early stages of their development and are still learning that you can't block everything. When you have both at the same time, it ends up making the shot blocker look even worse.

Porous perimeter defense can make a center look bad as well. The Lakers with Hibbert are an example. Everyone expected that he would make the defense better by giving them a paint presence. Problem was, at least for the first part of the season, the Lakers perimeter defense was so bad that opposing guards and forwards were driving to the hoop at will. There have been times Hibbert has looked like a revolving door trying to spin and move in the paint to try to defend against what was coming at him.

Trojan--- just stepping back and thinking about it objectively- if ANYONE in the league came out of no where- and started averaging almost 4 blocks a game- which is an INSANE total as we all know- BY FAR the highest in the league- I would think the impact this guy was making would be extraordinary- it would be like adding a rich mans Dikembe Mutombo- a potential BIG TIME game changer. The same would be said of anything- if a guy came out of no where and was getting 20 rebounds a game- it would open a lot of eyes-

i understand that- i understand that the VAST majority of fans- still rely on those basic statistics as a quick way to determine worth.

i dont know if any of you guys like baseball- but 20 years ago- everyone quoted batting average- now- everyone knows that when you figure WINNING- batting avareage is not NEARLY as important is OBP---- and now there are stats that are FAR more advanced then that- that are EXTREMELY good and MUCH MUCH better predictors of value than even OBP- let alone average---like----- FIP, BABIP, ERA+, OPS, etc.....

the same exact thing is happening in basketball- its a LITTLE bit behind baseball in this statistical revolution- but its started over a decade ago and is now pervasive.

When i see a guy like Whiteside- have a totally crazy outlier like 4 blocks a game- and the advanced stats are showing his team plays better defense WITHOUT him- the immediate question is WHY?!!!--- that ESPN article tries to bridge that gap---- to make us understand- why these old statistics and old ways of evaluating players- are archaic and outdated.

It just makes TOTAL sense that Whiteside is hunting blocks at the expense of team defense....if that wasnt the case- and the Heat found the best rim protector in the history of teh game- shouldnt that be showing up when you grade how well the team plays defense as a unit?

 

[trojanfan12]

I've seen the media be lied to, to report to idiots like him.

That's what's so funny. He acts like teams and "sources" are always 100% truthful to reporters. I mean, look at the KD stuff. 2 of the most well known NBA reporters have presented conflicting articles about what KD's plans are, both citing "sources."

You have Stephen A., who according to several on here, has very credible NBA sources claiming that the Lakers have been led to believe that they are the frontrunners for KD.

Then, 2 days later, we get a Woj bomb that GSW is a serious threat to get him.

Yet, what these teams and sources tell these guys is supposed to be accurate all the time.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

The thing about "experts" are, they're right as much as posters on this forum or any forum. I've seen some asinine shit come out of the mouths of some of these "experts" who are paid to do what they do.

Like I say all the time, anyone is entitled to their opinion.

As far as Whiteside vs Tristan, it's really no contest.

If one idiot wants to keep challenging everyone else, it's fine, but it's reached the point of redundance.

He'll never admit he is wrong, he'll just keep googling and posting anything that makes him feel better about himself.

 

[gordontrue]

I'm just impressed that a TT vs Whiteside thread produced 23 pages in under 36 hours.

 

[Heatles84]

Like I say all the time, anyone is entitled to their opinion.

As far as Whiteside vs Tristan, it's really no contest.

If one idiot wants to keep challenging everyone else, it's fine, but it's reached the point of redundance.

He'll never admit he is wrong, he'll just keep googling and posting anything that makes him feel better about himself.

Yep, he's gone 23 pages strong. Kind of debunks that whole "I'll admit when I'm wrong" phrase he throws out all the time. Only way he does if he makes a bet. Which, at least he'll honor, so there's that.

 

[WiggyRuss]

That's what's so funny. He acts like teams and "sources" are always 100% truthful to reporters. I mean, look at the KD stuff. 2 of the most well known NBA reporters have presented conflicting articles about what KD's plans are, both citing "sources."

You have Stephen A., who according to several on here, has very credible NBA sources claiming that the Lakers have been led to believe that they are the frontrunners for KD.

Then, 2 days later, we get a Woj bomb that GSW is a serious threat to get him.

Yet, what these teams and sources tell these guys is supposed to be accurate all the time.

im not talking about talking heads or opinions or sources

i am talking about 100% black and white cold hard statistics.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding apparently--

do you guys realize their is a difference between:

A. talking heads giving their opinions

and B.

B. objective statistics developed by genuises combing through every single recorded assist, point, block etc in the history of the NBA and finding where they correlate to winning.--- THIS IS what i am citing-- and it cracks me up to hear some guy on his couch try and explain that stuff away as OPINION....LOL

 

[WiggyRuss]

Like I say all the time, anyone is entitled to their opinion.

As far as Whiteside vs Tristan, it's really no contest.

If one idiot wants to keep challenging everyone else, it's fine, but it's reached the point of redundance.

He'll never admit he is wrong, he'll just keep googling and posting anything that makes him feel better about himself.

Im posting cold hard stats that are objective......while you have big ole pastrami hanging out your mouth grumbling about I SEE WHAT I SEE! that type of analysis has been thoroughly crushed in the NBA and MLB....its the way old stodgy, stubborn, regressive people that think that way- the same people that deny global warming and try and cite statistics as opinion.-its why those guys are being driven out of the game for the most part and replaced by PH'ds and statisticians and Harvard MBA's-----

 

[trojanfan12]

Trojan--- just stepping back and thinking about it objectively- if ANYONE in the league came out of no where- and started averaging almost 4 blocks a game- which is an INSANE total as we all know- BY FAR the highest in the league- I would think the impact this guy was making would be extraordinary- it would be like adding a rich mans Dikembe Mutombo- a potential BIG TIME game changer. The same would be said of anything- if a guy came out of no where and was getting 20 rebounds a game- it would open a lot of eyes-

Really didn't need to read anymore of your diatribe than this. Because if you truly think this, then you don't know near as much about basketball as you claim to.

When a team with an elite shot blocker, and I think I've read in here that even you admit he's an elite level shot blocker, is at it's best defensively is when everyone is communicating and knows/trusts that everyone else is doing their job. This leads to the shot blocker being the true last line of defense and he only has to clean up the occasional mistake.

When you have a situation like the Heat were in last year, there is little to no communication defensively. This results in guys being out of position and unmolested drives to the hoop. This leaves the shot blocker having to go after shots a lot more often than they should have to. More shots to go after = more blocks. But, since we know that they can't block everything, it also leads to more baskets for the opposition and more fouls on the shot blocker, which makes him look bad despite gaudy shot block statistics.

If the Heat continue to improve their defense (as January seems to show they are) and continue to communicate, it's likely that we will see Whiteside's blocked shots drop because he will have fewer attempts to go after. This will be especially true once he understands that there are some shots he shouldn't go after.

On the other hand, we will also likely see his number of fouls drop as well as the opponents field goal percentage.

At least that's what my eyes have shown me over the 45+ years that I have been actually watching and following the NBA.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Really didn't need to read anymore of your diatribe than this. Because if you truly think this, then you don't know near as much about basketball as you claim to.

When a team with an elite shot blocker, and I think I've read in here that even you admit he's an elite level shot blocker, is at it's best defensively is when everyone is communicating and knows/trusts that everyone else is doing their job. This leads to the shot blocker being the true last line of defense and he only has to clean up the occasional mistake.

When you have a situation like the Heat were in last year, there is little to know communication defensively. This results in guys being out of position and unmolested drives to the hoop. This leaves the shot blocker having to go after shots a lot more often than they should have to. More shots to go after = more blocks. But, since we know that they can't block everything, it also leads to more baskets for the opposition, which makes the shot blocker look bad despite gaudy shot block statistics.

If the Heat continue to improve their defense (as January seems to show they are) and continue to communicate, it's likely that we will see Whiteside's blocked shots drop because he will have fewer attempts to go after. This will be especially true once he understands that there are some shots he shouldn't go after.

On the other hand, we will also likely see his number of fouls drop as well as the opponents field goal percentage.

if that is the case and his teammates are holding him back---- then why when he is off the floor do they play better on defense? Simple question.

why do the statistics that have been designed to illuminate INDIVIDUAL performance- and take away and isolate all those ancillary factors- show that when Whiteside is on the court- the Heat give up MORE points per 100 possessions?

its really very simple- hes not very good and he inflates his stats at the expense of the team......this isnt me saying that- this isnt some talking heads opinion----- this is what the cold hard data that is objective says--- you guys can try and spin that all you want--- but as i have said on here a ton of times--- that should be argument 1 through 1 million.....

if Whiteside was truly an impact player on defense- why when he is off the court do the Heat give up LESS points per 100 defensive possessions? Its easy- he just isnt nearly as good as the old time stats would hae you believe because stats are his aim and not winning. PERIOD

 

[WiggyRuss]

Really didn't need to read anymore of your diatribe than this. Because if you truly think this, then you don't know near as much about basketball as you claim to.



If the Heat continue to improve their defense (as January seems to show they are) and continue to communicate, it's likely that we will see Whiteside's blocked shots drop because he will have fewer attempts to go after. This will be especially true once he understands that there are some shots he shouldn't go after.

A.

I certainly think this is possible- and it agrees with my point that whiteside is an idiot that go's for blocks when he shouldnt.........maybe he will learn that padding your stats to try and get a lot of blocks hurts his team and his defensive metrics go up....i am extremely curious to find out a couple months from now.

THIS IS NOT STEPHEN A SAYING THIS---- THIS IS NOT ETHAN SKOLNICK SAYING THIS--- THIS IS NOT BRIAN WINDHORST OR WHOEVER- THIS IS NOT ME SAYING IT-

this is 100% objective statistical data put into a format that is easy to compare and developed by GENIUSES who have incorporated every stat ever written on a box score in the history of the league.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

That's what's so funny. He acts like teams and "sources" are always 100% truthful to reporters. I mean, look at the KD stuff. 2 of the most well known NBA reporters have presented conflicting articles about what KD's plans are, both citing "sources."

You have Stephen A., who according to several on here, has very credible NBA sources claiming that the Lakers have been led to believe that they are the frontrunners for KD.

Then, 2 days later, we get a Woj bomb that GSW is a serious threat to get him.

Yet, what these teams and sources tell these guys is supposed to be accurate all the time.

Common sense would tell you that teams aren't going to
give away their real plans.

That's why Wiggy doesn't get it.
No common sense.
It's a trait in people who claim to be book smart.
I doubt he's even that.

 

[trojanfan12]

if that is the case and his teammates are holding him back---- then why when he is off the floor do they play better on defense? Simple question.

Once again, you show your lack of understanding of the game. When he isn't on the floor, his teammates know they don't have that last line of defense, so they gamble less and have more focus on the defensive end.

For someone who claims to know more about basketball than anyone on this board, you sure don't seem to have much grasp of some the simplest aspects of the game.

Additionally, it's not a matter of his teammates holding him back. It's a matter of learning to communicate and trust each other defensively as a unit. Considering how early Whiteside is in his career, it's also about him learning to do a better job of knowing when he should go for the block or just show and try to alter the shot. The latter is the more difficult of the 2 and even the best/most experienced shot blockers in the game get it wrong from time to time.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Common sense would tell you that teams aren't going to
give away their real plans.

That's why Wiggy doesn't get it.
No common sense.
It's a trait in people who claim to be book smart.
I doubt he's even that.

Those are talking heads opinions based on human sources with bias

have absolutely NOTHING to do what i am talking about- which is purely objective. You simply have no argument against this- and to do so would make you look like an idiot- so you try and conflate objective statistics with opinion- and its just not even close to the case.

That stat that shows the Heat play better defense when Whiteside is nailed ot the bench?!! THATS NOT STEPHEN A's oPINION- or MY OPINION- OR WOJ's OPINION------ thats 100% nonadultered objective FACT.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Once again, you show your lack of understanding of the game. When he isn't on the floor, his teammates know they don't have that last line of defense, so they gamble less and have more focus on the defensive end.

For someone who claims to know more about basketball than anyone on this board, you sure don't seem to have much grasp of some the simplest aspects of the game.

Additionally, it's not a matter of his teammates holding him back. It's a matter of learning to communicate and trust each other defensively as a unit, and considering how early Whiteside is in his career, it's also about him learning to do a better job of knowing when he should go for the block or just show and try to alter the shot.

GREAT Argument

we have a great shot blocker so everyone slack on defense. its bullshit... I will GUARANTEE you Dikembe Mutombo had a positive defensive rating... do you understand how unbelievably stupid it is to try and make that argument?

the real reason is- A. he cant guard the pick and roll because he is too slow B. he cant get out to the 3 pt line and guard it because he is too slow C. he cant switch any assigment because he is too slow and D. he goes for stats at the expense of his teammates.

 

[bksballer89]

GREAT Argument

we have a great shot blocker so everyone slack on defense. its bullshit... I will GUARANTEE you Dikembe Mutombo had a positive defensive rating... do you understand how unbelievably stupid it is to try and make that argument?

the real reason is- A. he cant guard the pick and roll because he is too slow B. he cant get out to the 3 pt line and guard it because he is too slow C. he cant switch any assigment because he is too slow and D. he goes for stats at the expense of his teammates.

And you know any of this how? Remember you don't watch heat games so basically you're making an assumption because you hate Whiteside

 

[trojanfan12]

we have a great shot blocker so everyone slack on defense. its bullshit

Once again, you are resorting to twisting words and making shit up because you are desperately trying to cling to yet another one of your incorrect statements.

I never said they slack on defense. I said they gamble less and are more focused defensively because they know they don't have an elite shot blocker to clean up their mistakes. It's a lot easier to justify gambling for steals, trying to jump passing lanes or be more concerned about getting in position for a fast break than staying in front of your man when you know you have someone to clean it up.

This is something that any of your "experts" would tell you and it's gone on in the NBA since the George Mikan days.

 

[WiggyRuss]

And you know any of this how? Remember you don't watch heat games so basically you're making an assumption because you hate Whiteside

oh yah-- i mean you guys gotta be right--- i bet a TON of the best shot blockers in NBA history had their team play better defense when they were on the bench like Whiteside,