Ichiro or Lofton

[MilkSpiller22]

I have had this debate elsewhere on the hoop, and I think this is an interesting one...

Clearly ichiro Suzuki is a first ballot HOFer.. and Kenny Lofton is a borderline player at best...


But who would you rather have on your team??

I prefer Lofton,


on an ideal team, I prefer my lead off hitter to get walks... I don't like one who just didn't get too many walks...

 

[redseat]

I get what you are saying with the walks, which I believe is a lead offs hitter job to do... But it doesn't matter if you get on base in your teammates can't get you in.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

On base percentage is on base percentage. Walk, hit, HBP, accidentally make it to first, doesn't matter as long as that lead off hitter is getting on base.

But I'll take Lofton.

 

[navamind]

I get what you are saying with the walks, which I believe is a lead offs hitter job to do... But it doesn't matter if you get on base in your teammates can't get you in.

But that has nothing to do with Ichiro/Lofton. That's their teammates.

 

[redseat]

But that has nothing to do with Ichiro/Lofton. That's their teammates.

I'm just saying to me its more valuable not only to get walks but yourself to hit for a little power and knocked yourself in

 

[navamind]

Lofton. Not only was he better at getting on base, but Lofton himself was a great base runner and he even had some pop. But it's close, especially considering Ichiro started his career at a later age.

 

[redseat]

Lofton. Not only was he better at getting on base, but Lofton himself was a great base runner and he even had some pop. But it's close, especially considering Ichiro started his career at a later age.

with what I said above and this ^^ I would also go with Lofton

 

[RazorsEdge]

I'd probably go Lofton too, 90's Lofton when he was a base stealing machine.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

On base percentage is on base percentage. Walk, hit, HBP, accidentally make it to first, doesn't matter as long as that lead off hitter is getting on base.

But I'll take Lofton.

I disagree that it doesn't matter how you get on base. The reason I like my lead off hitters to get walks is because that means they are seeing a lot of pitches. Which also helps knock out the pitcher earlier. It also allows the othe batters on your team to also see more pitches which will help them when they are at bat. The skill of the walk is huge IMO and a lead off hitter should have this skill.

That's also why I don't look at OBP. I look at BA and walk percentage. Yes that is similar to OBP but for me this is more telling.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

I disagree that it doesn't matter how you get on base. The reason I like my lead off hitters to get walks is because that means they are seeing a lot of pitches. Which also helps knock out the pitcher earlier. It also allows the othe batters on your team to also see more pitches which will help them when they are at bat. The skill of the walk is huge IMO and a lead off hitter should have this skill.

That's also why I don't look at OBP. I look at BA and walk percentage. Yes that is similar to OBP but for me this is more telling.

For the most part, in a 162 game season, you've seen this pitcher before, you know what he's got. Seeing a lot of pitches comes more in handy when facing someone for the first time, or maybe a young pitcher you don't have many at bats on. Just because you work deep counts, doesn't mean you're being productive.

 

[Villain]

There's no wrong answer here.

 

[Omar 382]

Lofton. I do think Ichiro should be a HOFer simply because of what he's done for baseball and Japan. But picking Suzuki over Lofton based on actual performance is ludicrous. If Lofton was Japanese and broke the hit record, no one would pick Ichiro over him.

Lofton has a higher JAWS, WAR, wRC+, wOBA, OPS, ISO, and WPA. Statistics say Suzuki was a better baserunnet, and he may have been, but Lofton stole 100 more bases in 1,000 less PA with nearly identical SB% (81% for Ichiro, 80% for Lofton). UZR and DRS wasn't measured until 2002, after Lofton's prime and right during Suzuki's prime, so Ichiro has better numbers in those categories, but Kenny blows him away in Fangraphs' Fielding and Positional Adjustment combined (139.4 for Lofton, 67.5 for Ichiro).

Lofton's HOF chances are severely hurt by playing for so many teams. From 2002-2007, he played for 10 teams. If he could have played 15 years for two or three teams, I think he would be in the Hall by now.

 

[Omar 382]

I get what you are saying with the walks, which I believe is a lead offs hitter job to do... But it doesn't matter if you get on base in your teammates can't get you in.

How is that the hitter who takes a walk's fault?

 

[Omar 382]

Lofton. Not only was he better at getting on base, but Lofton himself was a great base runner and he even had some pop. But it's close, especially considering Ichiro started his career at a later age.

You must have voted Kirby Puckett into the Hall of Fame

 

[Wamu]

Kenny Lofton.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Lofton. I do think Ichiro should be a HOFer simply because of what he's done for baseball and Japan. But picking Suzuki over Lofton based on actual performance is ludicrous. If Lofton was Japanese and broke the hit record, no one would pick Ichiro over him.

Lofton has a higher JAWS, WAR, wRC+, wOBA, OPS, ISO, and WPA. Statistics say Suzuki was a better baserunnet, and he may have been, but Lofton stole 100 more bases in 1,000 less PA with nearly identical SB% (81% for Ichiro, 80% for Lofton). UZR and DRS wasn't measured until 2002, after Lofton's prime and right during Suzuki's prime, so Ichiro has better numbers in those categories, but Kenny blows him away in Fangraphs' Fielding and Positional Adjustment combined (139.4 for Lofton, 67.5 for Ichiro).

Lofton's HOF chances are severely hurt by playing for so many teams. From 2002-2007, he played for 10 teams. If he could have played 15 years for two or three teams, I think he would be in the Hall by now.

I actually do agree and have said it before that the JAPANESE aspect of ichiro is a huge reason to why we see him to be so great...

The only knock against Lofton is that he only had 7 seasons of 600 or more PA... and only 150+ games twice... compared to Ichiro having 12 seasons of 600 or more PA and only had 3 seasons of BELOW 150 games...

 

[calsnowskier]

I actually do agree and have said it before that the JAPANESE aspect of ichiro is a huge reason to why we see him to be so great...

The only knock against Lofton is that he only had 7 seasons of 600 or more PA... and only 150+ games twice... compared to Ichiro having 12 seasons of 600 or more PA and only had 3 seasons of BELOW 150 games...

Good points, but the best ability is availability...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Good points, but the best ability is availability...

Definitely... And that is why Ichiro is a clear HOFer... I do think he is over-rated though...

That's also why I did not ask which player had the better career... That is almost as obvious as tony Gwynn vs Torii Hunter...

But I asked which player you would rather have...

I think Lofton was the better player with his skill sets...

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I disagree that it doesn't matter how you get on base. The reason I like my lead off hitters to get walks is because that means they are seeing a lot of pitches. Which also helps knock out the pitcher earlier. It also allows the othe batters on your team to also see more pitches which will help them when they are at bat. The skill of the walk is huge IMO and a lead off hitter should have this skill.

That's also why I don't look at OBP. I look at BA and walk percentage. Yes that is similar to OBP but for me this is more telling.

Stole my thunder...if the leadoff guy is seeing a lot of pitches, not only can he take that info to the dugout, by the 3rd time around, the pitcher may have thrown 10-12 more pitches vs a good hitting leadoff guy that maybe only see 3 or 4 pitches per AB.

 

[navamind]

You must have voted Kirby Puckett into the Hall of Fame

Puckett started at the age of 24. Ichiro was like 27.5 years old. Bit of a difference.

And Ichiro still managed over 10,000 plate appearances.