How many Finals MVPs for Bill Russell if the Award was around at the time?

[tlance]

LeBron has been quite mediocre at two of those things and done just fine.

Agreed.

Because he is the single greatest raw athlete to ever lace em up.

His combination of size, strength, speed, mobility and explosiveness has never been topped IMO.

And unlike Giannis who is close athletically, he does have above average skills to go with it.

 

[MAGA2024]

"LeBron's limited repertoire"


View attachment 398427

VERY limied, Offensively, as he shoots 38% from beyond 3-feet from the basket for his career (36% in the Playoffs)... his games is 75% bullrushing his way to the basket (repeatedly using his off arm to shove the defender out of the way but rarely getting whistled for an Offensive foul).

Otherwise what's his repertoire?

Long range shooting? Borderline average relative to his peers.

Any advanced analytics of him on offense is that he was meh on O.

Overall Russell was probably average Offensively relative to his Era, but he wasn't needed for Offense because the Celtics were stacked with Scorers. Even still, 6 times in the Finals he averaged at leats 17-23 PPG for the series, and twice led the Celtics in Finals Scoring, so he proved he can Score when it matters most, and when/if needed.

But as noted, the Celtics won 11 Championships because of their Defense, which is half the game... and Russell was clearly the best defender on the team.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Agreed.

Because he is the single greatest raw athlete to ever lace em up.

His combination of size, strength, speed, mobility and explosiveness has never been topped IMO.

And unlike Giannis who is close athletically, he does have above average skills to go with it.

Never seen a better combination of size, speed, explosiveness, control, court vision, and skill than Lebron. He’s a once in a multiple generation player. He and Wilt are probably the best raw athletes as far as great NBA players in history.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

VERY limied, Offensively, as he shoots 38% from beyond 3-feet from the basket for his career (36% in the Playoffs)... his games is 75% bullrushing his way to the basket (repeatedly using his off arm to shove the defender out of the way but rarely getting whistled for an Offensive foul).

Otherwise what's his repertoire?

Long range shooting? Borderline average relative to his peers.


Overall Russell was probably average Offensively relative to his Era, but he wasn't needed for Offense because the Celtics were stacked with Scorers. Even still, 6 times in the Finals he averaged at leats 17-23 PPG for the series, and twice led the Celtics in Finals Scoring, so he proved he can Score when it matters most, and when/if needed.

But as noted, the Celtics won 11 Championships because of their Defense, which is half the game... and Russell was clearly the best defender on the team.

He is ben wallace

 

[Mr. Friscus]

He is ben wallace

Let me know when Ben Wallace gets 20th in MVP voting once, much less 5 actual MVP’s

It’s like saying MJ was Gerald Wilkins

 

[MAGA2024]

I watched almost every game Jordan played.

He was a great offensive weapon.

But the three main skills in offensive basketball are shooting, ball handling and passing.

And there are plenty of guys who do all 3 better.

Jordan was among the best ever at creating space and leverage with his footwork, then using his athleticism to finish the play.

But you can’t honestly say that his shooting or ball handling skill is anywhere close to a Steph Curry or a Kyrie Irving.

The most skilled players today are simply the most skilled players of all time.

And I don’t think that is even really debatable.

So you started by saying he wasn't as skilled as Joker or Doncic, now you're asking if he was a better shooter/ballhandler than Curry or Kyrie... so we're using the skills of four (4) different players vs. one (1) Michael Jordan?

lol... c'mon.

Sure you could argue a handful of players today are on Jordan's level from an "overall" skill perspective, but that's it. 18-20 feet in, Jordan was unstoppable. Unstoppable mid-range shot, unstoppable in the post, unstoppable at the rim, unstoppable off the dribble (going right or left). His footwork is right-there with anyone today, and his ball-handling was also elite... only Jordan didn't dance around the perimeter for 15 seconds waiting for a pick so he could chuck a 3 (like Steph, Kyrie and Luka do so often today). Instead he'd just break the defenders ankles off the dribble if they played up on him, or bury the 16-18 foot mid-range in their face if they played off him.

Granted, he wasn't a better long-range shooter than most of the stars today; however we both know 3-point shooting simply wasn't a part of the game for the vast majority of MJ's career, so trying to hold that against him is disingenuous.

Jordan was also an elite Passer... but that facet of his game was (also) overlooked because he didn't pass as often as other guys since he was the GOAT Scorer... and GOAT Scorers don't "defer" the Scoring to less talented Scorers IF they want to win 6 Championships in 8 years.

Was he the most skilled in every facet. No, of course not... but there aren't many / if any players who were "more skilled" than Jordan "overall" as a whole... and if anything it would be EASIER for his skills to shine today because of the soft Defense and massive Spacing.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Let me know when Ben Wallace gets 20th in MVP voting once, much less 5 actual MVP’s

It’s like saying MJ was Gerald Wilkins

He is Ben Wallace

 

[Stakesarehigh]

My favorite part is Ben Wallace has a 47 percent field goal pct and Bills is 44

 

[Wamu]

VERY limied, Offensively, as he shoots 38% from beyond 3-feet from the basket for his career (36% in the Playoffs)... his games is 75% bullrushing his way to the basket (repeatedly using his off arm to shove the defender out of the way but rarely getting whistled for an Offensive foul).

Otherwise what's his repertoire?

Long range shooting? Borderline average relative to his peers.


Overall Russell was probably average Offensively relative to his Era, but he wasn't needed for Offense because the Celtics were stacked with Scorers. Even still, 6 times in the Finals he averaged at leats 17-23 PPG for the series, and twice led the Celtics in Finals Scoring, so he proved he can Score when it matters most, and when/if needed.

But as noted, the Celtics won 11 Championships because of their Defense, which is half the game... and Russell was clearly the best defender on the team.

Okay LeBron sucks is that better?

 

[MAGA2024]

Never seen a better combination of size, speed, explosiveness, control, court vision, and skill than Lebron. He’s a once in a multiple generation player. He and Wilt are probably the best raw athletes as far as great NBA players in history.

Outside of his Passing ability there was/is nothing special whatsoever about LeBron's "skills".

Below average (actually a pretty bad) shooter, as his 38% shooting from outside 3 feet will attest; average/below-average FT shooter; so so handles, footwork average at best. Court vision... with more Turnovers than anyone in NBA history I'll have to think aboit that one.

Size and strength is what has "made" LeBron, just like Shaq... but that's got nothing to do with talent or skill and everything to do with God-given genetics.

LeBron is a bigger version of Scottie Pippen (minus Scottie's GOAT level Defense of course) playing in an Era where it's been much easier to Score than it was when Pippen played.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Outside of his Passing ability there was/is nothing special whatsoever about LeBron's "skills".

Below average (actually a pretty bad) shooter, as his 38% shooting from outside 3 feet will attest; average/below-average FT shooter; so so handles, footwork average at best. Court vision... with more Turnovers than anyone in NBA history I'll have to think aboit that one.

Size and strength is what has "made" LeBron, just like Shaq... but that's got nothing to do with talent or skill and everything to do with God-given genetics.

LeBron is a bigger version of Scottie Pippen (minus Scottie's GOAT level Defense of course) playing in an Era where it's been much easier to Score than it was when Pippen played.

Then why do you suspect his PER is 26.9 and MJ is 27.9

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Scottie's PER is 18.6 ftr

 

[tlance]

So you started by saying he wasn't as skilled as Joker or Doncic, now you're asking if he was a better shooter/ballhandler than Curry or Kyrie... so we're using the skills of four (4) different players vs. one (1) Michael Jordan?

lol... c'mon.

Sure you could argue a handful of players today are on Jordan's level from an "overall" skill perspective, but that's it. 18-20 feet in, Jordan was unstoppable. Unstoppable mid-range shot, unstoppable in the post, unstoppable at the rim, unstoppable off the dribble (going right or left). His footwork is right-there with anyone today, and his ball-handling was also elite... only Jordan didn't dance around the perimeter for 15 seconds waiting for a pick so he could chuck a 3 (like Steph, Kyrie and Luka do so often today). Instead he'd just break the defenders ankles off the dribble if they played up on him, or bury the 16-18 foot mid-range in their face if they played off him.

Granted, he wasn't a better long-range shooter than most of the stars today; however we both know 3-point shooting simply wasn't a part of the game for the vast majority of MJ's career, so trying to hold that against him is disingenuous.

Jordan was also an elite Passer... but that facet of his game was (also) overlooked because he didn't pass as often as other guys since he was the GOAT Scorer... and GOAT Scorers don't "defer" the Scoring to less talented Scorers IF they want to win 6 Championships in 8 years.

Was he the most skilled in every facet. No, of course not... but there aren't many / if any players who were "more skilled" than Jordan "overall" as a whole... and if anything it would be EASIER for his skills to shine today because of the soft Defense and massive Spacing.

There are lots of players more skilled than Jordan was.

That is my point.

None that also had his size, athleticism and heart though.

But you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot with this stance. It is very easy to look at stats and find literally hundreds of current and former players who are better pure shooters.

And no, Jordan was not an elite passer.

He was a good passer with a sky high usage rate and he drew a lot of attention from defenses.

So of course he is going to get his share of assists.

 

[MAGA2024]

Okay LeBron sucks is that better?

LeBron certainly does not suck, he's just nowhere near as great as his fans make him out to be.

Off the top of my head I'd take Jordan, Jabbar, Duncan, Dream and Bird over LeBron as "players"... maybe even Wilt and Shaq but those two guys were such HUGE liabilities at the FT line I'd have to think long/hard about it. Then again LeBron isn't exactly lights-out from the line either, especially in the clutch.... hell. I even heard talk that he puposely shys away from taking the last shot/s in tight games for fear he'll get fouled and he forced to the line.

Regardless, there's lots of guys I'd take over James... now if we're talking their entire career body of work like on a GOAT list, then that list is shorter of course, but I'd still rank MJ, Jabbar, Russ and Duncan (and maybe a couple others) higher on the AT list.

 

[MAGA2024]

Scottie's PER is 18.6 ftr

Right... which makes Pippen the 140th best player ever IF you give that stat any legit credibility.

I don't buy it. Thinking Pip was just a wee bit better than that.

 

[MAGA2024]

There are lots of players more skilled than Jordan was.

That is my point.

None that also had his size, athleticism and heart though.

But you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot with this stance. It is very easy to look at stats and find literally hundreds of current and former players who are better pure shooters.

And no, Jordan was not an elite passer.

He was a good passer with a sky high usage rate and he drew a lot of attention from defenses.

So of course he is going to get his share of assists.

Lots of players more skilled in one or two facets, sure... Bird was a better shooter and passer, Magic a better passer, Steph a better shoter with better handles, etc... but a better skill-level overall? No... not even close to "lots" of players.

We can go round-round about his Passing... I could show you clip after clip of Jordan's absolutely "elite" Passing skills, but you can do that too, and remind yourself of his greatness in that facet of his game.

Also... a great/elite "Passer" doesn't only mean a guy who racks up a ton of Assists. as I'm sure you know... so what measurement are you using to say he wasn't great?

 

[DJ Fieri]

View attachment 398411

 

[DJ Fieri]

Why are you so angry?

He's short.

Napolean complex.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Outside of his Passing ability there was/is nothing special whatsoever about LeBron's "skills".

Below average (actually a pretty bad) shooter, as his 38% shooting from outside 3 feet will attest; average/below-average FT shooter; so so handles, footwork average at best. Court vision... with more Turnovers than anyone in NBA history I'll have to think aboit that one.

Size and strength is what has "made" LeBron, just like Shaq... but that's got nothing to do with talent or skill and everything to do with God-given genetics.

LeBron is a bigger version of Scottie Pippen (minus Scottie's GOAT level Defense of course) playing in an Era where it's been much easier to Score than it was when Pippen played.

The turnovers? Are more a testament to how long he has played....it's called longevity.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Right... which makes Pippen the 140th best player ever IF you give that stat any legit credibility.

I don't buy it. Thinking Pip was just a wee bit better than that.

Ah so you pick and choose which facts support your opinion.

LeBron having the 3rd best PER in history kind of fucks up your little rant.