How about selling

[JBM73]

First, I don't think the people who come up with the corsi ratings fully understand them honestly.

Well, I didn't come up with them but I can still tell you with all sincerity I understand them. 90% anyway. I agree that to say those stats are the be all and end all of evaluation is crazy. Dismissing them entirely is equally crazy. But hey, more power to those who think they can provide a better evaluation via their one TV angle...

 

[JBM73]

vinny and schenn do have a handful of PP goals, so maybe 'horrible' was a little harsh.

My recollection is that the 2nd unit was strong early on, but has since fallen off of a cliff.

Also, the Flyers have now given up 10 shorties...

 

[JBM73]

Also, the Flyers have now given up 10 shorties...

...tied for worst in the league.

Team Short Handed Goals Against - 2013-14 - NHL Season Statistics

 

[Cobiemonster]

...tied for worst in the league.

Team Short Handed Goals Against - 2013-14 - NHL Season Statistics

Remember the one year when they didn't give up any shorthanded goals until the last game of the season?

 

[JBM73]

Remember the one year when they didn't give up any shorthanded goals until the last game of the season?

2008-09?

Team Short Handed Goals Against - 2008-09 - NHL Season Statistics

 

[Cobiemonster]

2008-09?

Team Short Handed Goals Against - 2008-09 - NHL Season Statistics

Yeah that was the year - they gave up a shorthanded goal in the final game of the season and had they not, they would have had home ice in that first round of the playoffs I think

 

[banditshcky11]

Well, I didn't come up with them but I can still tell you with all sincerity I understand them. 90% anyway. I agree that to say those stats are the be all and end all of evaluation is crazy. Dismissing them entirely is equally crazy. But hey, more power to those who think they can provide a better evaluation via their one TV angle...

Well your better at deciphering them then I am sir. I'm not completely dismissing them but I don't put nearly as much faith in them as some people do. The reason is because a players Corsi has as much to do with his line mates as his own play, which I feel over complicates attempting to access a players effectiveness.

I know last night was only one game but it just re-affirms my belief that we should be very aggressive making trades and swapping pieces now and at the draft. They're certainly not as bad as they appeared last night and the Olympics totally fuck up any sort of rhythm a team has gotten in and disrupts the players level of conditioning. There are deals to be made all over the place if management just asks players if they'd be willing to waive their clauses and for a list of team they won't go to (so unfortunately we may have to count the Oilers and so much of their promising youth or super sexy 1st rounder out ). I just think we need to finish this re-build, we're 75-80% of the way there we just need to collect a few more pieces and we become a perennial cup favorite in a year of so.

On a side note I FUCKING WHAT HOMER TO CALL ABOUT O'Reilly NOW (his trade freeze is up today)!!! I'm a huge believer in him and want to see him lined up with G and Jake.

 

[JBM73]

Yeah that was the year - they gave up a shorthanded goal in the final game of the season and had they not, they would have had home ice in that first round of the playoffs I think

Looks like you're right!

2008-09 NHL Regular Season Divisional Standings - National Hockey League - ESPN

New York Rangers vs. Philadelphia Flyers - Boxscore - April 12, 2009 - ESPN

The Rangers won the last game of the season 4-3, in part due to the lone short-handed goal against for the season, dropping the Flyers to 5th in the Conference.

 

[banditshcky11]

Looks like you're right!

2008-09 NHL Regular Season Divisional Standings - National Hockey League - ESPN

New York Rangers vs. Philadelphia Flyers - Boxscore - April 12, 2009 - ESPN

The Rangers won the last game of the season 4-3, in part due to the lone short-handed goal against for the season, dropping the Flyers to 5th in the Conference.

Anyone remember when Richie scored 3 shorties back to back to back games when killing off 5 on 3 PP's? What year was that?

 

[JBM73]

The reason is because a players Corsi has as much to do with his line mates as his own play, which I feel over complicates attempting to access a players effectiveness.
.

Agreed, just as that player has an effect on the performance/stats of his linemates. It's one tool that should be used in an evaluation, not the only one. However, you can also use it to compare the effectiveness of each player on a line relative to the others. All 3 may have good Corsi ratings if the line as a whole is good, but the best player on the line would likely have the highest Corsi rating, and the worst player on the line would have the worst Corsi rating. For example, the top 3 Corsi ratings on the Flyers at even-strength this year are, in order: Voracek, Hartnell, Giroux. Why? As you said, they have been the Flyers primary 1st and best line and have affected each other's stats. You might be surprised to see Giroux in 3rd, not 1st. However, Giroux was certainly not himself from the start of the season thru about mid-December, both offensively and defensively. Does that mean he's the 3rd best player on that line? No, of course not. It just means that over the course of THIS season to date he's been the 3rd best. If we looked at Corsi stats just since mid-December, he'd almost certainly be first. Now, let's pretend for a minute that for some reason the Flyers had Jay Rosehill in Hartnell's spot on the first line. What would his Corsi rating look like? Well, it would certainly be better than what it is now on the 4th line. It would also still be significantly worse than that of his linemates, Giroux and Voracek. Why? Well, as we all know even though the Flyers 1st line may consist of players X, Y and Z, those 3 players do not play together for the entire game every game, due to injuries, penalties, uneven line changes, etc. So, Rosehill would still find himself out on the ice at times with players other than Giroux and Voracek. Gee and Jake would support his stats to some extent, but Rosehill's ability, or lack thereof, would still shine through in the end compared to his "regular" linemates.

Hope that helps put it in perspective.

 

[JBM73]

Anyone remember when Richie scored 3 shorties back to back to back games when killing off 5 on 3 PP's? What year was that?

That was 2008-09 as well:

Before the start of the 2008–09 season, on September 17, 2008, Richards was named the 17th captain in Flyers history, succeeding previous captain Jason Smith, who had signed with the Ottawa Senators in the off-season.[12] On February 15, 2009, Richards became the first player in NHL history to score three career 3-on-5 shorthanded goals when he beat New York Rangers goalie Henrik Lundqvist in a 5–2 win.[13] Six days later, on February 21, Richards became the first Flyer in team history[citation needed] to score a shorthanded goal in three consecutive games and the first NHL player to do so since Joe Sakic in 1998.[14] He finished the season second in team scoring to Jeff Carter with 80 points to go with a league-leading 7 shorthanded goals.[14]

 

[banditshcky11]

Agreed, just as that player has an effect on the performance/stats of his linemates. It's one tool that should be used in an evaluation, not the only one. However, you can also use it to compare the effectiveness of each player on a line relative to the others. All 3 may have good Corsi ratings if the line as a whole is good, but the best player on the line would likely have the highest Corsi rating, and the worst player on the line would have the worst Corsi rating. For example, the top 3 Corsi ratings on the Flyers at even-strength this year are, in order: Voracek, Hartnell, Giroux. Why? As you said, they have been the Flyers primary 1st and best line and have affected each other's stats. You might be surprised to see Giroux in 3rd, not 1st. However, Giroux was certainly not himself from the start of the season thru about mid-December, both offensively and defensively. Does that mean he's the 3rd best player on that line? No, of course not. It just means that over the course of THIS season to date he's been the 3rd best. If we looked at Corsi stats just since mid-December, he'd almost certainly be first. Now, let's pretend for a minute that for some reason the Flyers had Jay Rosehill in Hartnell's spot on the first line. What would his Corsi rating look like? Well, it would certainly be better than what it is now on the 4th line. It would also still be significantly worse than that of his linemates, Giroux and Voracek. Why? Well, as we all know even though the Flyers 1st line may consist of players X, Y and Z, those 3 players do not play together for the entire game every game, due to injuries, penalties, uneven line changes, etc. So, Rosehill would still find himself out on the ice at times with players other than Giroux and Voracek. Gee and Jake would support his stats to some extent, but Rosehill's ability, or lack thereof, would still shine through in the end compared to his "regular" linemates.

Hope that helps put it in perspective.

Yes that actually does make it a bit easier to understand the reasoning behind the Corsi rating. Poor Giroux really needs to be ensured full time line mates and not used to jump start other players at various points during the season, I think it really messes with his flow (which may be illustrated in the Corsi somewhere).

 

[JBM73]

YPoor Giroux really needs to be ensured full time line mates and not used to jump start other players at various points during the season, I think it really messes with his flow (which may be illustrated in the Corsi somewhere).

There you go, now you've got it. Great point.

 

[awaz]

giroux has had pretty consistent linemates in hartnell and voracek.. for the past 2 seasons or so they've been the flyers top line.. raffl bumped up for a few games this year, and gagne/read bumped up a few times last year i think.. but for the most part, it's been voracek and hartnell

i'm more concerned with playing the right way than i am who is on what line right now. they scored 3 even strength goals last night against one of the better defensive teams in the league (5th in team GAA). on a typical night, 3 even strength goals should be enough to win.

 

[JBM73]

giroux has had pretty consistent linemates in hartnell and voracek.. for the past 2 seasons or so they've been the flyers top line.. raffl bumped up for a few games this year, and gagne/read bumped up a few times last year i think.. but for the most part, it's been voracek and hartnell

i'm more concerned with playing the right way than i am who is on what line right now. they scored 3 even strength goals last night against one of the better defensive teams in the league (5th in team GAA). on a typical night, 3 even strength goals should be enough to win.

The Flyers definitely needed someone consistently laying on the lumber near the crease last night. Soft. WAAAAAAY too soft.

 

[lasgop8]

why do we come out of every long break flat as a pancake.

 

[awaz]

why do we come out of every long break flat as a pancake.

been like that for years too.. i dont understand it

 

[banditshcky11]

giroux has had pretty consistent linemates in hartnell and voracek.. for the past 2 seasons or so they've been the flyers top line.. raffl bumped up for a few games this year, and gagne/read bumped up a few times last year i think.. but for the most part, it's been voracek and hartnell

i'm more concerned with playing the right way than i am who is on what line right now. they scored 3 even strength goals last night against one of the better defensive teams in the league (5th in team GAA). on a typical night, 3 even strength goals should be enough to win.

Yea but remember Hartnell was only put back on that line to get him going same with Lecavilier, Raffl was put there to actually help Giroux and Vorachek & Read well fills in wherever really. I am fine with Harts, G and Jake being our top line, they just need to leave it in tact is all I'm saying.

Your concern is definitely the bigger one and main reason why I'm so pro multiple trades and finishing the rebuild for once (at least in the 31 years of my life, 20 or so I can remember pretty clearly). I'm not one to condone losing for top draft pick like some other franchises have done, repeatedly. There are enough guys publicly on the trade block though & pending free agents that it wouldn't be hard to find some pieces that we could use and exploring adding them. I'm fine if it all takes place at the draft too since some of the asking prices are way out of line, especially for ufa's IMO.

 

[banditshcky11]

why do we come out of every long break flat as a pancake.

This is a good question, can we Corsi this???

 

[awaz]

The Flyers definitely needed someone consistently laying on the lumber near the crease last night. Soft. WAAAAAAY too soft.

yep. sad thing is, that's what some people *cough grossmann* *cough schenn* are in the lineup to do.. very frustrating.