How about selling

[banditshcky11]

Anyone else think that maybe it's time to realize that even though the Flyers have shown flashes of brilliance that they have mostly been up and down all year long? I think this is the year to sell and I mean in a big way, basically sell off everything that isn't core at this stage and ask everyone who has a NTC/NMC if they would be willing to waive it to play for a contender or in a certain market. I mean I'm not saying there's no way but I just don't see a parade in the cards for this or even next year with the state thsi team is in from top to bottom and it starts with lacking one true identity model through out the management group. the following players should all be talked to under the premise that management is finally trying to do what's best for the franchise.

Forwards- Lecavilier (maybe TOR would be interested again and they seem to hate Gardiner now), Hartnell (tons of team foaming at the mouth for his brand of player), Downie (added grit with some skill to fill a bottom 6 role).

Defense- Timonen ( the ultimate rental and warrior, the guy deserves a shot at a cup and could bring back good value with the current crop d D available), Streit ( would not be a rental but more of a hockey trade, according to cap geek he does not have an NTC clause), Grossman (a guy most playoff teams would love for his style of defensive play), Coburn ( regardless of what people say he's a work horse and steady plus he has years left, EDM also loves this guy so maybe a deal could be made there).

Goalies- Emery ( the only reason I bring him up is a team with a hurt back up could use a steady hand and he could bring something back since I doubt we re-sign him, plus Mason should be playing most of the game going forward anyway).


What I'm basically suggesting is try to move tons of money out and start to rebuild this team through trades or drafting to ONE MODEL. I know some people will say some of these are bad contracts but with the cap raising the numbers will be more and more palatable with each passing year. I'd specifically love to see them target the Oilers 1st round pick but I'm not sure if that's in play at all now but I could see them making moves to get a guy like Girardi and immediately resigning him or using assets to trade for Erhoff/Edler or something of the sort. If the Flyers are nothing else they are aggressive with making bold moves and I believe now is the perfect time to remind the league about that going towards the draft and free agency.

Basically I'm saying I think the shelves should be stocks and the doors made open for teams to make offers on anyone in the O&B right now especially the players listed above as they all fit key roles that teams looking to go deep need but they don't seem to gel as well in Philly currently. I'm sure some of you think I'm nuts or overly optimistic but I'm just expressing my opinion, so enjoy.

 

[JBM73]

Interesting take. I think the Flyers are in the same boat as 80% of the league - not enough talent to win a Cup, not bad enough to get high draft picks to acquire a few stars to build around. Let's look at the past 5 Cup winners:

2009 Pittsburgh - sucked for several years and drafted a few stars who led them to the Cup
2010 Chicago - sucked for several years and drafted a few stars who led them to the Cup
2011 Boston - the one team on this list who used all available options in building a Cup team - drafting, trades, free agency - fairly equally
2012 LA - traded the future (Schenn, Johnson, Simmonds, high draft picks) for present stars (Richards, Carter) to support a solid core of drafted players
2013 Chicago - see above, plus moved veterans for draft picks to keep the cheap talent pipeline flowing

Where do the Flyers fall in terms of their approach? Where should they be headed? The Flyers have ONE star - Giroux. The rest of the roster is either over-the-hill, good-but-not-great, journeymen or full of "potential". That's not good enough at present. Unless at least a couple of other players develop into true stars, this team will continue to be an also-ran. So, the question for our good friend Paul Holmgren is this - WILL any other current players develop into stars? If the answer is yes, then he should stand pat for the most part. If the answer is no, then trades are needed.

 

[awaz]

the flyers are already a couple years in to the rebuild and the defensive core hasn't come along yet.

schenn, simmonds, read, couturier, and giroux (in his present role) are all difference makers up front and potential all-stars.

laughton, gostisbehere, morin, hagg, and potentially cousins on the way to hopefully fortify the defense and provide a few role players.

they may not be cup contenders for a year or two, but based on the level of rebuild they're going through, they shouldn't be. they just got to this point much quicker than rebuilding teams typically do.

patience and do nothing. would be my plan.

 

[lasgop8]

the flyers are already a couple years in to the rebuild and the defensive core hasn't come along yet.

schenn, simmonds, read, couturier, and giroux (in his present role) are all difference makers up front and potential all-stars.

laughton, gostisbehere, morin, hagg, and potentially cousins on the way to hopefully fortify the defense and provide a few role players.

they may not be cup contenders for a year or two, but based on the level of rebuild they're going through, they shouldn't be. they just got to this point much quicker than rebuilding teams typically do.

patience and do nothing. would be my plan.

 

[JBM73]

they may not be cup contenders for a year or two, but based on the level of rebuild they're going through, they shouldn't be. they just got to this point much quicker than rebuilding teams typically do.

Holmgren misjudged the state of the rebuild by signing LeCavalier and Streit - by the time the Flyers have the potential to be true Cup contenders, these guys will be over the hill and major anchors on the cap. Either let the talent develop and THEN plug the holes that remain, or make trades now in order to win now. Holmgren seriously erred in this case.

 

[awaz]

Holmgren misjudged the state of the rebuild by signing LeCavalier and Streit - by the time the Flyers have the potential to be true Cup contenders, these guys will be over the hill and major anchors on the cap. Either let the talent develop and THEN plug the holes that remain, or make trades now in order to win now. Holmgren seriously erred in this case.

i can agree with that. i'm ok with signing both players, but i think they're signed 2 years too long each.

 

[Cobiemonster]

When you're playing well like the Flyers have had the last three months, they're not selling - but if they can move a guy or two and get a fresh face in here that can give them another dynamic(especially on the blueline) and help their cap situation just a bit, that wouldn't be a bad thing - people are conditioned to feel that when a team is playing well, you can't really sell - you can do both but you have to be careful that if you're selling someone, that you're sending the right message and not the wrong one

I don't think the Flyers have to do anything at the deadline, they're a team that as long as they get consistently good goaltending from Steve Mason and guys like G, Wayne, Jake and a few others do their thing, they'll be just fine - I would like to see them tinker with the defense and add a little speed and mobility to it but they're not in a situation where it is a complete necessity for them - they just need to continue to play well as a team, take care of business and things will be fine

 

[Cobiemonster]

Holmgren misjudged the state of the rebuild by signing LeCavalier and Streit - by the time the Flyers have the potential to be true Cup contenders, these guys will be over the hill and major anchors on the cap. Either let the talent develop and THEN plug the holes that remain, or make trades now in order to win now. Holmgren seriously erred in this case.

I still like those two signings because they needed more offense out of their center position and while Vinny has been inconsistent and has had injuries, he was the one guy playing well early on so he might be able to get a spark late in the season

I wasn't a fan of the Mark Streit signing at the beginning but more and more over time I like it because they need a number one PP QB d-man and with Kimmo regressing, Mark Streit has really helped the power play - he's creative and smart offensively and that goes well with the skilled guys like G, etc

 

[awaz]

I still like those two signings because they needed more offense out of their center position and while Vinny has been inconsistent and has had injuries, he was the one guy playing well early on so he might be able to get a spark late in the season

I wasn't a fan of the Mark Streit signing at the beginning but more and more over time I like it because they need a number one PP QB d-man and with Kimmo regressing, Mark Streit has really helped the power play - he's creative and smart offensively and that goes well with the skilled guys like G, etc

yep. timonen's the man, but streit has looked better QB'ing the PP this season

 

[Cobiemonster]

yep. timonen's the man, but streit has looked better QB'ing the PP this season

It takes pressure off of G on the power play because he doesn't have to be the playmaker as often

 

[JBM73]

Corsi stats say Kimmo's still the man on the PP. Disappointed to see Gus so low.

BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host]

 

[Cobiemonster]

Corsi stats say Kimmo's still the man on the PP. Disappointed to see Gus so low.

BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host]

Corsi is overrated - I get tired of people trying to base whether a player is good based on an advanced stat and not what they see with their own two eyes

 

[banditshcky11]

Interesting take. I think the Flyers are in the same boat as 80% of the league - not enough talent to win a Cup, not bad enough to get high draft picks to acquire a few stars to build around. Let's look at the past 5 Cup winners:

2009 Pittsburgh - sucked for several years and drafted a few stars who led them to the Cup
2010 Chicago - sucked for several years and drafted a few stars who led them to the Cup
2011 Boston - the one team on this list who used all available options in building a Cup team - drafting, trades, free agency - fairly equally
2012 LA - traded the future (Schenn, Johnson, Simmonds, high draft picks) for present stars (Richards, Carter) to support a solid core of drafted players
2013 Chicago - see above, plus moved veterans for draft picks to keep the cheap talent pipeline flowing

Where do the Flyers fall in terms of their approach? Where should they be headed? The Flyers have ONE star - Giroux. The rest of the roster is either over-the-hill, good-but-not-great, journeymen or full of "potential". That's not good enough at present. Unless at least a couple of other players develop into true stars, this team will continue to be an also-ran. So, the question for our good friend Paul Holmgren is this - WILL any other current players develop into stars? If the answer is yes, then he should stand pat for the most part. If the answer is no, then trades are needed.

This is my primary point. So I can't understand why not sell off pieces that would potential get good value back and help true contenders while helping us stock up and giving us the one thing that stops us from being able to enter trade discussion for most major pieces ASSESTS. If they moved those players and brought guys like Laurdisen, McGinn & the like up full time we may see a very different team that more fits Beurebe's "system" since they will be full of compete and bring a high intensity level every night since they have a lot to prove.

I hate to say this but I'd be ok missing the playoffs this year or being a one and done type team to get a better draft pick. I'd rather stock up for Giroux's prime when Vorachek, Simmonds, B Schenn and Couturier have truly developed to their full NHL potential. I'm looking at the Pittsburgh model, you win through strength up the middle. This also gives us some time to get Ghost, Morin and Hagg possibly ready for the show plus maybe add some more players through drafting or trades that could develop into the key roles we'll need.

My point is we're not going to buy a cup winning team now, how many years did Clarke try to & how many years did it fail? The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result. The Flyers are a good team but not a cup contender now. We should embrace this and be sellers this season and then re-tool at the draft and during FA. This is just the reality, if the Flyers want to see a cup again in the next few years they need to approach things differently. I know crazy knee jerk moves have worked out in the past & this may just be another form of one but it makes sense to me at least. It gives us an opportunity to get things back for players we shouldn't have signed or don't need as well.

 

[banditshcky11]

When you're playing well like the Flyers have had the last three months, they're not selling - but if they can move a guy or two and get a fresh face in here that can give them another dynamic(especially on the blueline) and help their cap situation just a bit, that wouldn't be a bad thing - people are conditioned to feel that when a team is playing well, you can't really sell - you can do both but you have to be careful that if you're selling someone, that you're sending the right message and not the wrong one

I don't think the Flyers have to do anything at the deadline, they're a team that as long as they get consistently good goaltending from Steve Mason and guys like G, Wayne, Jake and a few others do their thing, they'll be just fine - I would like to see them tinker with the defense and add a little speed and mobility to it but they're not in a situation where it is a complete necessity for them - they just need to continue to play well as a team, take care of business and things will be fine

This statement says it all, but if you're selling to make a team more competitive in the long run it makes a lot of sense. As a player I would be elated if I knew this was the case honestly because I would immediately think of what the Bruins & Blackhawks have done.

 

[banditshcky11]

I wonder if Grossman and a pick could get us Girardi (probably a pipe dream but Grossman is a cheaper more physical version if Girardi)? Since their both defensive defense men who can log big minutes against key opponents, block shots and Grossman is much more physical or maybe he gets you Edler with a similar deal. I'd live to package Gus & other prospects and try to get Erhoff for them but may not be what Buffalo is looking to get for him. These moves do all provide potential cap relief though and that could be valuable to the Rags and Van who I believe are both out of buyouts as well moving forward.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I wonder if Grossman and a pick could get us Girardi (probably a pipe dream but Grossman is a cheaper more physical version if Girardi)? Since their both defensive defense men who can log big minutes against key opponents, block shots and Grossman is much more physical or maybe he gets you Edler with a similar deal. I'd live to package Gus & other prospects and try to get Erhoff for them but may not be what Buffalo is looking to get for him. These moves do all provide potential cap relief though and that could be valuable to the Rags and Van who I believe are both out of buyouts as well moving forward.

No chance you can get Girardi for that, nor Edler - those two guys are more premium d-men and Edler brings a hell of a lot more offense

I like Ehrhoff but there's still too many years on that contract - smh at Buffalo giving him 10 flipping years(I don't care if it was a way to lower the cap hit)

 

[banditshcky11]

No chance you can get Girardi for that, nor Edler - those two guys are more premium d-men and Edler brings a hell of a lot more offense

I like Ehrhoff but there's still too many years on that contract - smh at Buffalo giving him 10 flipping years(I don't care if it was a way to lower the cap hit)

Oh I didn't mean straight up. I just meant as a player to start with since he fits a specific role not teams need. A big work horse D that can block shots and use his body to neutralize players and clear the porch.

On Erhoff even with the year the cap his is so small and will only continue to shrink so if we can get him reasonably he's be an upgrade IMO and it's a move we should make. Plus he only has like 8 years left so that's a teams max signing length and if we traded or had a ifs D worth it they should get a max length deal, just without the ntc.

 

[awaz]

Corsi is overrated - I get tired of people trying to base whether a player is good based on an advanced stat and not what they see with their own two eyes

also, and maybe this is me not completely understanding corsi, but Streit's been on the 2nd PP most of the year, and for the most part, the 2nd unit as a whole has been horrible. i would think playing with the top unit has helped timonen's numbers quite a bit.

 

[banditshcky11]

also, and maybe this is me not completely understanding corsi, but Streit's been on the 2nd PP most of the year, and for the most part, the 2nd unit as a whole has been horrible. i would think playing with the top unit has helped timonen's numbers quite a bit.

First, I don't think the people who come up with the corsi ratings fully understand them honestly. Secondly the second PP unit has not been the bad considering the first unit is out for 70-75% if the PP time (which I think is a bother problem for a separate conversation). I'm sure Kimmo being out there for a larger portion if time with one of the leagues best players in Giroux who's partial to using Kimmo to setup definitely doesn't hurt his rating though.

 

[awaz]

First, I don't think the people who come up with the corsi ratings fully understand them honestly. Secondly the second PP unit has not been the bad considering the first unit is out for 70-75% if the PP time (which I think is a bother problem for a separate conversation). I'm sure Kimmo being out there for a larger portion if time with one of the leagues best players in Giroux who's partial to using Kimmo to setup definitely doesn't hurt his rating though.

ya i dont really have anything to back up calling the 2nd unit 'horrible' haha.. it just seems like they very rarely get set up. i actually noticed in the game last night when they got set up and i thought to myself 'wow, this is the first sustained pressure i've seen from the second unit in a long while'. couturier looked very poised with the puck on that particular sequence.

vinny and schenn do have a handful of PP goals, so maybe 'horrible' was a little harsh.