HOF locks - Pedro & Randy

[DragonfromTO]

Are individual value and achievement the same thing though?

I agree that a smart team would select the best woman from the previous example and that would likely make her the most valuable but are you saying that would also make her the best ball player on the field?

Not in a vacuum she might not be. But in that particular league, under those particular rules?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Couldn't you apply that statement to most of the middle infielders in the Hall of Fame then? There are very very few Hall of Fame middle infielders that would be there if they'd put up their numbers at 1B (even with equally good defense) instead.

But again, why should previous mistakes make it ok to make another one??

and no, you have to look at each case alone... some made it because they hit a milestone, some made it because they were good defenseman... I am sure there are cases of players that made it to the HOF solely because of their position, and i don't like that, as we are talking about our opinions not about actual fact... I am not going to put a player in to the HOF solely because someone else who i don't think should have made it into the HOF made it into the HOF...


But if you are comparing players you have to first ask why did this player make the HOF before you do the comparison...

For example Craig Biggio, who i thought should have made it due to hitting the milestone of hits... if he did not hit that milestone, there is a chance i would not have had him in the HOF... I would not use him as a comparison to get others in, because i don't know if he was deserving without the milestone...

 

[DragonfromTO]

But again, why should previous mistakes make it ok to make another one??

and no, you have to look at each case alone... some made it because they hit a milestone, some made it because they were good defenseman... I am sure there are cases of players that made it to the HOF solely because of their position, and i don't like that, as we are talking about our opinions not about actual fact... I am not going to put a player in to the HOF solely because someone else who i don't think should have made it into the HOF made it into the HOF...


But if you are comparing players you have to first ask why did this player make the HOF before you do the comparison...

For example Craig Biggio, who i thought should have made it due to hitting the milestone of hits... if he did not hit that milestone, there is a chance i would not have had him in the HOF... I would not use him as a comparison to get others in, because i don't know if he was deserving without the milestone...

Do you honestly believe that large of a percentage of the middle infielders in the Hall of Fame were "mistakes"? And that a player's career suddenly changes remarkably when he turns that dial from 2,999 to 3,000? One hit over 15-20 seasons matters that much?

 

[calsnowskier]

But again, why should previous mistakes make it ok to make another one??

and no, you have to look at each case alone... some made it because they hit a milestone, some made it because they were good defenseman... I am sure there are cases of players that made it to the HOF solely because of their position, and i don't like that, as we are talking about our opinions not about actual fact... I am not going to put a player in to the HOF solely because someone else who i don't think should have made it into the HOF made it into the HOF...


But if you are comparing players you have to first ask why did this player make the HOF before you do the comparison...

For example Craig Biggio, who i thought should have made it due to hitting the milestone of hits... if he did not hit that milestone, there is a chance i would not have had him in the HOF... I would not use him as a comparison to get others in, because i don't know if he was deserving without the milestone...

Biggio is a good comparison. They both played at the same time, but were very different players.

Kent essentially stayed at the same position while Biggio moved around. Kent was had 1 MVP, was 4-times top 10 and received votes in 7 years. Biggio received votes in 5 year, but was only top 10 twice (4th was his highest finish). Ignoring positional factors, Kent was generally considered to be an overall elite player more often than Biggio.

IF you consider Biggio a HOFer, than I am not sure there can be much argument about Kent. I agree with you, though, that if you do not believe Biggio belongs, than that is not a given that Kent does. One mistake should not require a second mistake.

 

[calsnowskier]

Do you honestly believe that large of a percentage of the middle infielders in the Hall of Fame were "mistakes"? And that a player's career suddenly changes remarkably when he turns that dial from 2,999 to 3,000? One hit over 15-20 seasons matters that much?

Especially when Biggio was pretty tough to watch the last couple years (his two lowest OPS seasons since 1990) because he wanted to get that hit.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Do you honestly believe that large of a percentage of the middle infielders in the Hall of Fame were "mistakes"? And that a player's career suddenly changes remarkably when he turns that dial from 2,999 to 3,000? One hit over 15-20 seasons matters that much?

Not what i said at all... What i asked is only for comparing, and this is why i don't compare... If i don't think someone deserved to make it in the first place, why should i use them as the comparison...

But you also have to understand why someone is a HOFer before you even use them as a comparison... If they made it because they only made it because they hit a milestone, then they are not good comparisons... if someone made it because of their defense, then they are not good comparisons for offense...

And yes a players career does dramatically change in the way it is perceived after they hit the magic number...

Even in a season, there is a big difference between a 19 game winner and a 20 game winner!!!

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Last year the average 2B hit .256/.313/.373, while the average 1B hit .255/.331/.426. If 2B isn't more "demanding" defensively why wouldn't more organizations move more mashing first basemen to second base so that their team can gain an immediate (large) offensive advantage there?

Teams typically put older, banged up guys at 1B but there are plenty of great hitters who could probably have been perfectly adequate 2B.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Biggio is a good comparison. They both played at the same time, but were very different players.

Kent essentially stayed at the same position while Biggio moved around. Kent was had 1 MVP, was 4-times top 10 and received votes in 7 years. Biggio received votes in 5 year, but was only top 10 twice (4th was his highest finish). Ignoring positional factors, Kent was generally considered to be an overall elite player more often than Biggio.

IF you consider Biggio a HOFer, than I am not sure there can be much argument about Kent. I agree with you, though, that if you do not believe Biggio belongs, than that is not a given that Kent does. One mistake should not require a second mistake.

In all fairness though, a lot of this tends to ride on team success and voter biases (often towards higher HR/RBI numbers). Look at how much it's helped Ryan Howard or Juan Gonzalez for instance.

I'd argue Biggio's 1996 and 1999 seasons for instance were as good or better than Kent's 1997, but Kent finished 8th that year while Biggio didn't crack top 10 in neither 1996/1999.

If were were to look at WAR (for what it's worth), Kent had 3 seasons with a WAR of 5+, whereas Biggio had 5 such seasons. Kent had 5 seasons of a 4+ WAR, where Biggio had 9 (although a few were at catcher).

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Not in a vacuum she might not be. But in that particular league, under those particular rules?

Maybe we're viewing the talents of men and women differently, I don't know.

 

[calsnowskier]

In all fairness though, a lot of this tends to ride on team success and voter biases (often towards higher HR/RBI numbers). Look at how much it's helped Ryan Howard or Juan Gonzalez for instance.

I'd argue Biggio's 1996 and 1999 seasons for instance were as good or better than Kent's 1997, but Kent finished 8th that year while Biggio didn't crack top 10 in neither 1996/1999.

If were were to look at WAR (for what it's worth), Kent had 3 seasons with a WAR of 5+, whereas Biggio had 5 such seasons. Kent had 5 seasons of a 4+ WAR, where Biggio had 9 (although a few were at catcher).

It is very difficult to compare different seasons by different players. Biggio looks good in those seasons, but I would like a further study of how the rest of the league did those years to see if he got "screwed" out of any MVP votes.

Another view...

Biggio had a career OPS+ of 112 with 6 seasons at 120+. Kent had a career mark of 123 with 8 seasons at 120+. Granted, OPS+ completely ignores defense, but no stat is perfect.

And let's not act like Bigio was Roberto Alomar and Kent was a constant, later-day Steve Sax, either. According to BBRef, Biggio had a career dWAR of -3.9 (granted, this takes into account his OF and catching years). Kent had a career -0.7 (again, this includes his 3B and 1B time).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It is very difficult to compare different seasons by different players. Biggio looks good in those seasons, but I would like a further study of how the rest of the league did those years to see if he got "screwed" out of any MVP votes.

Another view...

Biggio had a career OPS+ of 112 with 6 seasons at 120+. Kent had a career mark of 123 with 8 seasons at 120+. Granted, OPS+ completely ignores defense, but no stat is perfect.

And let's not act like Bigio was Roberto Alomar and Kent was a constant, later-day Steve Sax, either. According to BBRef, Biggio had a career dWAR of -3.9 (granted, this takes into account his OF and catching years). Kent had a career -0.7 (again, this includes his 3B and 1B time).

Also, OPS+ is a power stat... so yes, Kent was a better power hitter... But Biggio had a better OBP and he did that in significantly more PA... Also, Biggio was significantly better at SBs... But naming stats one is better at is not enough to say one is the better player... It needs to be an analysis of many stats to be accurate and the more stats the more accurate...

 

[calsnowskier]

Also, OPS+ is a power stat... so yes, Kent was a better power hitter... But Biggio had a better OBP and he did that in significantly more PA... Also, Biggio was significantly better at SBs... But naming stats one is better at is not enough to say one is the better player... It needs to be an analysis of many stats to be accurate and the more stats the more accurate...

OPS+ is not a power stat. It is a hitting stat. Adjusted OBP + SLG.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

OPS+ is not a power stat. It is a hitting stat. Adjusted OBP + SLG.

Maybe i am wrong here, but since when has SLG not been a Power stat?? HR hitters have better SLG!!!

 

[calsnowskier]

Maybe i am wrong here, but since when has SLG not been a Power stat?? HR hitters have better SLG!!!

So you don't like OPS?

That's fine if you don't, but it is currently the most accepted percentage stat for hitters since it takes both aspects into account. A great OBP guy will still have a high OPS. A Dave Kingman will take a major hit to his OPS since he is either trotting around the bases or trotting back to the dugout.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So you don't like OPS?

That's fine if you don't, but it is currently the most accepted percentage stat for hitters since it takes both aspects into account. A great OBP guy will still have a high OPS. A Dave Kingman will take a major hit to his OPS since he is either trotting around the bases or trotting back to the dugout.

not in a comparison between a power hitter and a non power hitter...

I like the stats, but of course Giancarlo stanton has a higher OPS than Jose Altuve....

 

[calsnowskier]

not in a comparison between a power hitter and a non power hitter...

I like the stats, but of course Giancarlo stanton has a higher OPS than Jose Altuve....

Bad example. Stanton was one of, if not the best hitters in the game in '14. He had a higher OBP than Altuve as well. If he didn't have a higher OPS, the stat would be worthless.

Altuve had an OPS of .830 with an OPS+ of 134 in '14. Those are pretty elite numbers. And he did that with only 7 HRs.

If you hadn't brought up that example to show how it is not a versatile stat, I would have brought it up to show that it IS a versatile stat.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Bad example. Stanton was one of, if not the best hitters in the game in '14. He had a higher OBP than Altuve as well. If he didn't have a higher OPS, the stat would be worthless.

Altuve had an OPS of .830 with an OPS+ of 134 in '14. Those are pretty elite numbers. And he did that with only 7 HRs.

If you hadn't brought up that example to show how it is not a versatile stat, I would have brought it up to show that it IS a versatile stat.

Fine, it was a bad example, but my point is still the same... I don't like to use stats that weigh power over non power when i am comparing a power hitter to a non power hitter... But i am also the type that creates my own statistics.... Also, like i said, the more statistics you use the more accurate of an analysis you can make...

I was just commenting because that was the one stat you used in that specific post...

 

[calsnowskier]

Fine, it was a bad example, but my point is still the same... I don't like to use stats that weigh power over non power when i am comparing a power hitter to a non power hitter... But i am also the type that creates my own statistics.... Also, like i said, the more statistics you use the more accurate of an analysis you can make...

I was just commenting because that was the one stat you used in that specific post...

Fair enough.

But there is also more the "power" than just HRs. SLG looks at 2Bs and 3Bs as well (and singles, to be technical). Altuve is a perfect example of a player that is represented well by the stat without actually hitting HRs.

To be fair, as well, Altuve brings MUCH more to the table than just his bat. He has legs and a glove as well, and OBP, SLG and OPS all completely ignore those aspects (SLG represents speed in a minor way, though, because Altuve will extend singles to doubles and doubles to triples).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Fair enough.

But there is also more the "power" than just HRs. SLG looks at 2Bs and 3Bs as well (and singles, to be technical). Altuve is a perfect example of a player that is represented well by the stat without actually hitting HRs.

To be fair, as well, Altuve brings MUCH more to the table than just his bat. He has legs and a glove as well, and OBP, SLG and OPS all completely ignore those aspects (SLG represents speed in a minor way, though, because Altuve will extend singles to doubles and doubles to triples).

I also have a problem with slugging % with the weights it gives each hit, but thats another story for another thread...

 

[Mondo Jay]

Biggio is a good comparison. They both played at the same time, but were very different players.

Kent essentially stayed at the same position while Biggio moved around. Kent was had 1 MVP, was 4-times top 10 and received votes in 7 years. Biggio received votes in 5 year, but was only top 10 twice (4th was his highest finish). Ignoring positional factors, Kent was generally considered to be an overall elite player more often than Biggio.

IF you consider Biggio a HOFer, than I am not sure there can be much argument about Kent. I agree with you, though, that if you do not believe Biggio belongs, than that is not a given that Kent does. One mistake should not require a second mistake.

Well said.