HOF locks - Pedro & Randy

[broncosmitty]

Biggio had no business being inducted to the HOF.

Yer dum.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm not exactly a stat guy and only recommend this half heartedly but maybe the HOF should do away with voting altogether and come up with some kind of points system. Assign X amount of points for HRs, Y for RBIs, etc. then add them up and if the total surpasses a certain threshold then they're automatically inducted 10 years after retirement and I get a signed baseball from them.

Clearly that's not exactly a great (or even good) system but these voters go out of their way to be assholes most years.

I actually agree, not with assigning any stat any points, but baseball is a game of statistics... statistics should get players in not voters... And if you want to punish Steroids(which i am not one) then just say that all these players are exempt for this years vote... But i wouldn't mind the abolishment of this voting process...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

here is a question:

should position played be a factor in HOF decision if that player was not a good defender??

for example Jeff Kent, he was not a good second baseman, but he is the best power hitting second baseman of all time, should it matter??? same with Mike Piazza...

 

[StanMarsh51]

here is a question:

should position played be a factor in HOF decision if that player was not a good defender??

for example Jeff Kent, he was not a good second baseman, but he is the best power hitting second baseman of all time, should it matter??? same with Mike Piazza...

Yes...even if they weren't a good defender, it's reasonable to say that playing certain more demanding positions can have an adverse effect on one's offensive numbers. I mean, Piazza may have been able to hit better than he did had he been a 1B for his entire career as an example, particularly later in his later years.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes...even if they weren't a good defender, it's reasonable to say that playing certain more demanding positions can have an adverse effect on one's offensive numbers. I mean, Piazza may have been able to hit better than he did had he been a 1B for his entire career as an example, particularly later in his later years.

fine, but how much should position be taken into account??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes...even if they weren't a good defender, it's reasonable to say that playing certain more demanding positions can have an adverse effect on one's offensive numbers. I mean, Piazza may have been able to hit better than he did had he been a 1B for his entire career as an example, particularly later in his later years.

and how about Kent playing second base.... that is not much more demanding than other positions... should being the best power second baseman matter??

 

[calsnowskier]

here is a question:

should position played be a factor in HOF decision if that player was not a good defender??

for example Jeff Kent, he was not a good second baseman, but he is the best power hitting second baseman of all time, should it matter??? same with Mike Piazza...

Absolutely.

For his career, he not only took the added wear and tear of actually fielding a position, but his managers felt he was good enough at the position to play.

If being the best power-hitting 2B is no big deal, why didn't other decent hitters play there as well? Kent played a good enough 2B to stay there his whole career and be sought-after (traded for 3 times, signed to lucrative FA contracts twice).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Absolutely.

For his career, he not only took the added wear and tear of actually fielding a position, but his managers felt he was good enough at the position to play.

If being the best power-hitting 2B is no big deal, why didn't other decent hitters play there as well? Kent played a good enough 2B to stay there his whole career and be sought-after (traded for 3 times, signed to lucrative FA contracts twice).

don't get me wrong i am not asking whether Kent should make it to the HOF or not, i am just wondering if being the BEST power hitting 2B is a valid reason for someone who was not a good defenseman...

Piazza was a bad inclusion to the question because Catchers deserve different standards... But is a second baseman any different than any other defensive position, so why does a mediocre at best defensive player need to be compared to the rest of his position??

 

[DragonfromTO]

And that, IMHO, is a bastardization of the process.

On the radio yesterday, I heard a thought process that I 100% agree with...

"Vote as if your ballot were the only one that counted."

If a player falls off the ballot, then he was, by definition, not one of the elite of his generation. There were clearly more than 10 other players on the ballot that were viewed as more worthy. 5% is not hard to gather for anyone who has a legit argument to at least table the discussion.

The lineup of guys who were bounced from the ballot after only one (sub 5%) year is a lot more impressive than you seem to be implying. Ted Simmons, Lou Whitaker, Will Clark, Darrell Evans, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Kenny Lofton... probably more guys I'm not thinking of. Not all of those guys are Hall of Famers of course (although some of them should be), but all have a more than "legit argument"

 

[DragonfromTO]

don't get me wrong i am not asking whether Kent should make it to the HOF or not, i am just wondering if being the BEST power hitting 2B is a valid reason for someone who was not a good defenseman...

Piazza was a bad inclusion to the question because Catchers deserve different standards... But is a second baseman any different than any other defensive position, so why does a mediocre at best defensive player need to be compared to the rest of his position??

Because you have to field a player at every position during an MLB game, and as such a player provides value to his team by being better than the alternatives at the specific position he plays.

 

[calsnowskier]

The lineup of guys who were bounced from the ballot after only one (sub 5%) year is a lot more impressive than you seem to be implying. Ted Simmons, Lou Whitaker, Will Clark, Darrell Evans, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Kenny Lofton... probably more guys I'm not thinking of. Not all of those guys are Hall of Famers of course (although some of them should be), but all have a more than "legit argument"

Good players, all. But I don't see a HOFer amongst them. And for a Giants fan to that about Clark, it carries some weight.

Should Lofton have remained on the ballot longer? Possibly. But there were not even 5% of the voters who believed he belonged on their ballot, so there is absolutely zero chance he ever would have gotten in. By getting dropped from the ballot, though, he goes to the veterans committee all that much sooner.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

[/B]


Because you have to field a player at every position during an MLB game, and as such a player provides value to his team by being better than the alternatives at the specific position he plays.

i question that logic... but thats for another thread...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Good players, all. But I don't see a HOFer amongst them. And for a Giants fan to that about Clark, it carries some weight.

Should Lofton have remained on the ballot longer? Possibly. But there were not even 5% of the voters who believed he belonged on their ballot, so there is absolutely zero chance he ever would have gotten in. By getting dropped from the ballot, though, he goes to the veterans committee all that much sooner.

bobby grich was a snub... not sure if i would induct him, but he deserved serious thought...

 

[DragonfromTO]

Good players, all. But I don't see a HOFer amongst them. And for a Giants fan to that about Clark, it carries some weight.

Should Lofton have remained on the ballot longer? Possibly. But there were not even 5% of the voters who believed he belonged on their ballot, so there is absolutely zero chance he ever would have gotten in. By getting dropped from the ballot, though, he goes to the veterans committee all that much sooner.

I would vote for Simmons, Whitaker and Grich for sure. I suspect that the first two will get in through the veterans committee. Grich is probably shit out of luck, but you never know.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Good players, all. But I don't see a HOFer amongst them. And for a Giants fan to that about Clark, it carries some weight.

Should Lofton have remained on the ballot longer? Possibly. But there were not even 5% of the voters who believed he belonged on their ballot, so there is absolutely zero chance he ever would have gotten in. By getting dropped from the ballot, though, he goes to the veterans committee all that much sooner.

I'd say Whitaker is as much, if not more a HOFer than Kent.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Yes...even if they weren't a good defender, it's reasonable to say that playing certain more demanding positions can have an adverse effect on one's offensive numbers. I mean, Piazza may have been able to hit better than he did had he been a 1B for his entire career as an example, particularly later in his later years.

Should that really matter though?

You're effectively adding points to their offense because of their defense which you're acknowledging was bad in the first place.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Should that really matter though?

You're effectively adding points to their offense because of their defense which you're acknowledging was bad in the first place.

again catcher was a bad example... But for Jeff kent, is second base more demanding than any other defensive position?? Why does the title of BEST matter, shouldn't they make it on their own merits and not because the pool was not good at that specific aspect of baseball...

should Jack doyle make the HOF since he Was the BEST SB guy of any first baseman??

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

again catcher was a bad example... But for Jeff kent, is second base more demanding than any other defensive position?? Why does the title of BEST matter, shouldn't they make it on their own merits and not because the pool was not good at that specific aspect of baseball...

should Jack doyle make the HOF since he Was the BEST SB guy of any first baseman??

I don't think it makes much of a difference where someone plays. In my view, you're either one of the greatest players in the game or you're not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't think it makes much of a difference where someone plays. In my view, you're either one of the greatest players in the game or you're not.

I mostly agree with you, but feel that you may be a little too much on it...

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

I mostly agree with you, but feel that you may be a little too much on it...

Everyone is welcome to their opinion.

I always point to Derek Jeter and David Ortiz in discussions like that. Both are very good hitters but did the former really help his team by playing SS awfully and the latter hurt his team by not playing SS even worse? I think both teams would have been a lot better off with competent defenders playing the position and moving the other two to positions they could actually make a positive impact on the field - in this case, for Ortiz, that's riding the pine on defense.