HOF locks - Pedro & Randy

[calsnowskier]

Everyone is welcome to their opinion.

I always point to Derek Jeter and David Ortiz in discussions like that. Both are very good hitters but did the former really help his team by playing SS awfully and the latter hurt his team by not playing SS even worse? I think both teams would have been a lot better off with competent defenders playing the position and moving the other two to positions they could actually make a positive impact on the field - in this case, for Ortiz, that's riding the pine on defense.

Jeter bad defense??? He has shelves full of Gold Gloves...

[/sarcasm]


Jeter was able to hold down a difficult position so that the Yanks could concentrate on filling other, less demanding positions. If he had shifter to 2B, for example, where would Soriano or Cano played in their tenures? Jeter may have been GROSSLY over-rated defensively, he was good enough to allow the media to not be completely humiliated by handing him GG after GG.

Ortiz was so bad at defense wherever he played that his over-all contribution to the team would not have warranted his roster spot (outside of as a PH).

 

[DragonfromTO]

again catcher was a bad example... But for Jeff kent, is second base more demanding than any other defensive position?? Why does the title of BEST matter, shouldn't they make it on their own merits and not because the pool was not good at that specific aspect of baseball...

should Jack doyle make the HOF since he Was the BEST SB guy of any first baseman??

No, but if he was merely the best first baseman he probably should (and would) be in.

Let's try this... you're picking teams for a (competitive) co-ed softball game. You are required to take 3 girls from the pool and have one of them in the lineup at all times. The men are all of relatively equal ability, there are some slight differences but they all have about the same skill set. The girls are all terrible, but there is one girl who, while not as good as the men, is much better than all of the other women.

Which player in the pool will provide the most value to your team? Who would you choose with the first overall pick?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No, but if he was merely the best first baseman he probably should (and would) be in.

Let's try this... you're picking teams for a (competitive) co-ed softball game. You are required to take 3 girls from the pool and have one of them in the lineup at all times. The men are all of relatively equal ability, there are some slight differences but they all have about the same skill set. The girls are all terrible, but there is one girl who, while not as good as the men, is much better than all of the other women.

Which player in the pool will provide the most value to your team? Who would you choose with the first overall pick?

I hate this game, because you are driving there to be one answer... Kent was not the best offensive 2B he was only the best power bat... Baseball is not only about the HR...

 

[DragonfromTO]

again catcher was a bad example... But for Jeff kent, is second base more demanding than any other defensive position?? Why does the title of BEST matter, shouldn't they make it on their own merits and not because the pool was not good at that specific aspect of baseball...

should Jack doyle make the HOF since he Was the BEST SB guy of any first baseman??

Do you think that it's just a coincidence and random luck that the pool of MLB shortstops doesn't (and probably hasn't for 100 years or so) hit as well as the pool of first basemen?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I hate this game, because you are driving there to be one answer... Kent was not the best offensive 2B he was only the best power bat... Baseball is not only about the HR...

No shit. But you're focusing on the wrong detail in my response... Doyle wouldn't have to be the "best" first baseman for me to vote him in anyway.

I take it that your answer to the question is that you'd take the elite girl? Do you see the point? Players create value by being better than the other options. And if you need a second baseman Manny Ramirez really isn't an option, even if he is a much better hitter than Jeff Kent. And you (unless you want to try some experimental fielding bullshit) need to have a second baseman in the lineup, all the time.

 

[calsnowskier]

I hate this game, because you are driving there to be one answer... Kent was not the best offensive 2B he was only the best power bat... Baseball is not only about the HR...

Kent is absolutely in the discussion for top 5 greatest hitting 2B in the history of the game. Further, he was probably the best hitting 2B in the game since Sandberg, at least.

As Dragon said, it is not a coincidence that there have not been a lot of great hitting 2B in the history of the game. The up-the-middle positions are a special class (granted, 2B is probably the least of the 4 positions, though). When there is such an outlier to the positional norm, you have to take notice.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Jeter bad defense??? He has shelves full of Gold Gloves...

[/sarcasm]


Jeter was able to hold down a difficult position so that the Yanks could concentrate on filling other, less demanding positions. If he had shifter to 2B, for example, where would Soriano or Cano played in their tenures? Jeter may have been GROSSLY over-rated defensively, he was good enough to allow the media to not be completely humiliated by handing him GG after GG.

Ortiz was so bad at defense wherever he played that his over-all contribution to the team would not have warranted his roster spot (outside of as a PH).

I don't doubt Derek Jeter was a saint but can't you say every other player in history allowed their team to concentrate on other roster spots too?

CF became an offensive blackhole after Williams declined then retired. The team probably would have been far better off moving Jeter to CF and finding someone who could actually play SS. It's not like Melky Cabrera put up such stellar numbers that they couldn't find a defensive SS replacement capable of duplicating those.

We're getting away from the point though. You're crediting Jeter with playing SS when he's statistically ranked the worst defender ever. How can you credit someone with that? I think playing good defense at a premium position can be a valuable commodity but I see no real reason to pretend all commodities are equally valuable.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't doubt Derek Jeter was a saint but can't you say every other player in history allowed their team to concentrate on other roster spots too?

CF became an offensive blackhole after Williams declined then retired. The team probably would have been far better off moving Jeter to CF and finding someone who could actually play SS. It's not like Melky Cabrera put up such stellar numbers that they couldn't find a defensive SS replacement capable of duplicating those.

We're getting away from the point though. You're crediting Jeter with playing SS when he's statistically ranked the worst defender ever. How can you credit someone with that? I think playing good defense at a premium position can be a valuable commodity but I see no real reason to pretend all commodities are equally valuable.

What you or I think is immaterial. Yankees management decided that the Yankees were best served having him at SS, and he collected a jewelry store's worth of rings playing the position while hitting well and offering team leadership.

Would he have been a HOFer if he were a 2B or a 3B? Probably, but that has a lot to do with the "Yankee factor". He was also the captain of a team that won umpteen rings, so that, also, would get him in, regardless of position.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

What you or I think is immaterial. Yankees management decided that the Yankees were best served having him at SS, and he collected a jewelry store's worth of rings playing the position while hitting well and offering team leadership.

Would he have been a HOFer if he were a 2B or a 3B? Probably, but that has a lot to do with the "Yankee factor". He was also the captain of a team that won umpteen rings, so that, also, would get him in, regardless of position.

Our opinions might be immaterial to what the Yankees did a decade ago but this is a discussion board and I thought we were having a discussion.

What exactly are you doing here, cal?

 

[calsnowskier]

Our opinions might be immaterial to what the Yankees did a decade ago but this is a discussion board and I thought we were having a discussion.

What exactly are you doing here, cal?

The Yankees made the decision, based on much more data than either of us have, that Jeter was good enough on defense to warrant putting him there. I cannot imagine they would have made the same decision with Ortiz.

Their decision worked as they won a shit-ton of rings. Jeter was a passable defensive SS (during his prime) and the unquestioned leader in the locker room. Add to that he was a very good hitter, and he is a no-brainer HOFer.

Back to topic, Kent was a below-average, but passable, 2B. He is also one of the top 5 (number taken at relative random, he may actually be #3 or #7) hitting 2B of all time, and the CLEAR best hitting 2B of his generation (Sandberg was prior and Cano is after). He is not in after his 2nd pass through because he has the personality problems and his D was not stellar. I am OK with the debate about him, but to me, he is a no-brainer.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

No shit. But you're focusing on the wrong detail in my response... Doyle wouldn't have to be the "best" first baseman for me to vote him in anyway.

I take it that your answer to the question is that you'd take the elite girl? Do you see the point? Players create value by being better than the other options. And if you need a second baseman Manny Ramirez really isn't an option, even if he is a much better hitter than Jeff Kent. And you (unless you want to try some experimental fielding bullshit) need to have a second baseman in the lineup, all the time.

That's great team strategy if you're looking to win championships but aren't we talking about individual achievement here.

 

[DragonfromTO]

That's great team strategy if you're looking to win championships but aren't we talking about individual achievement here.

I would define an individual player's value as the value that he can bring to an MLB team. Otherwise what's the point?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The Yankees made the decision, based on much more data than either of us have, that Jeter was good enough on defense to warrant putting him there. I cannot imagine they would have made the same decision with Ortiz.

Their decision worked as they won a shit-ton of rings. Jeter was a passable defensive SS (during his prime) and the unquestioned leader in the locker room. Add to that he was a very good hitter, and he is a no-brainer HOFer.

Back to topic, Kent was a below-average, but passable, 2B. He is also one of the top 5 (number taken at relative random, he may actually be #3 or #7) hitting 2B of all time, and the CLEAR best hitting 2B of his generation (Sandberg was prior and Cano is after). He is not in after his 2nd pass through because he has the personality problems and his D was not stellar. I am OK with the debate about him, but to me, he is a no-brainer.

again, I am not asking whether Kent should make the HOF or not, I am just asking if it should be taken from his merits or by the comparison of his position, when he is not making it at all because of his defense... its not like 2B is any more demanding than any other defensive position...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Also, there is a big difference between Best player and best career... and HOF answers best career...

 

[DragonfromTO]

again, I am not asking whether Kent should make the HOF or not, I am just asking if it should be taken from his merits or by the comparison of his position, when he is not making it at all because of his defense... its not like 2B is any more demanding than any other defensive position...

Last year the average 2B hit .256/.313/.373, while the average 1B hit .255/.331/.426. If 2B isn't more "demanding" defensively why wouldn't more organizations move more mashing first basemen to second base so that their team can gain an immediate (large) offensive advantage there?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Last year the average 2B hit .256/.313/.373, while the average 1B hit .255/.331/.426. If 2B isn't more "demanding" defensively why wouldn't more organizations move more mashing first basemen to second base so that their team can gain an immediate (large) offensive advantage there?

you really want to split hairs to make your argument more sound??

and is second base more demanding than first base?? I don't think it is for the good defensive ones... but I guess for the average to bad that 2B is more demanding... so sure 2B is more demanding than first, but is it more demanding than SS, 3B, CF,RF or LF?? I don't know, if it is then it is not significant...

I am not saying defensive position should not be taken into account, I am just saying that it should only be a significant factor if the player was a good defender...

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

The Yankees made the decision, based on much more data than either of us have, that Jeter was good enough on defense to warrant putting him there. I cannot imagine they would have made the same decision with Ortiz.

Their decision worked as they won a shit-ton of rings. Jeter was a passable defensive SS (during his prime) and the unquestioned leader in the locker room. Add to that he was a very good hitter, and he is a no-brainer HOFer.

Back to topic, Kent was a below-average, but passable, 2B. He is also one of the top 5 (number taken at relative random, he may actually be #3 or #7) hitting 2B of all time, and the CLEAR best hitting 2B of his generation (Sandberg was prior and Cano is after). He is not in after his 2nd pass through because he has the personality problems and his D was not stellar. I am OK with the debate about him, but to me, he is a no-brainer.

Yeah, I got it. The Yankees did whatever and my opinion doesn't matter.

Why are you here?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It just sounds like the only reason people think he is a HOF is because he played 2B, and I just don't believe that it is enough of a reason...

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

I would define an individual player's value as the value that he can bring to an MLB team. Otherwise what's the point?

Are individual value and achievement the same thing though?

I agree that a smart team would select the best woman from the previous example and that would likely make her the most valuable but are you saying that would also make her the best ball player on the field?

 

[DragonfromTO]

It just sounds like the only reason people think he is a HOF is because he played 2B, and I just don't believe that it is enough of a reason...

Couldn't you apply that statement to most of the middle infielders in the Hall of Fame then? There are very very few Hall of Fame middle infielders that would be there if they'd put up their numbers at 1B (even with equally good defense) instead.