History Comp-Greg Maddux vs Randy Johnson

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Age is irrelevant..playing time is how it's measured. If a player's career lasts from ages 21-26, is he still early in his career at age 25? Of course not, considering that's near the end of his career.

Johnson's first 'season' (not including the year he was a Sept callup) was around age 25, and considering he played 21 seasons, you could reasonably breakout the career into thirds and use the first 7 years ('89-'95) as the early part of his career, the next 7 ('96-'02) as the middle part, and the final 7 ('03-'09) is the later part. Therefore if he started at 25, you can certainly include seasons in his 30s as the early part since it's still in the first third of his career.

Regarding CC, the stage of his career he is in right now will be based on how long he plays, but unless he retires sooner than expected, it's probably the ending stage of the middle third of his career or the beginning of the later part of his career.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

You went from accusing me of using all sorts of semantical trickery that you were just too smart to fall for to a bizarre analogy of a guy whose career spans the ages of 21 to 26. I don't know how that analogy remotely fits the actual conversation but lets go back to all the talking I did about arbitrary dates and MVPs. To quote you're referring to is:

At least Barry Bonds had success early in his career. Johnson was basically a middle of the rotation guy.

Where exactly does all this trickery occur?

Johnson's professional career spanned the ages of 21 through 42 or 43. Again, "early" is a bit vague but I just can't consider age 30 or 31 early in this case. Plus, as navamind points out, there's a pretty noticeable difference in his BB rates between the '92 and '93 seasons which can account for much of the change in his pitching so I think that's a pretty reasonable place to end his "early" career.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Johnson's professional career spanned the ages of 21 through 42 or 43. Again, "early" is a bit vague but I just can't consider age 30 or 31 early in this case. Plus, as navamind points out, there's a pretty noticeable difference in his BB rates between the '92 and '93 seasons which can account for much of the change in his pitching so I think that's a pretty reasonable place to end his "early" career.

Johnson's MLB career started at age 25 (his debut was the same week as his 25th bday) and his last game was at age 46. Why you're caring about his minor league career, I don't know?

So yes, his early 30s is still in the first third of his major league career, which is the early part of his career.

The 21-26 example is to demonstrate that the parts of their careers are defined by career duration, not age. Had Johnson not been in baseball in his 20s and started playing baseball at age 30, would 32 not be the early part of his career? If we're going by your logic using age as the defining test, it's not early in his career even though his debut would've been not too long ago.

 

[fordman84]

No likey? No play!

I did play. And then after it ran its course and people asked for suggestions on the next poll, I gave one.


No keepy up with the thread, then STFU

 

[broncosmitty]

Regardless of age and expierienced, The Big Unit turned the corner when Lou Piniella (and the rest of his staff) were brought in, in '93.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Johnson's MLB career started at age 25 (his debut was the same week as his 25th bday) and his last game was at age 46. Why you're caring about his minor league career, I don't know?

So yes, his early 30s is still in the first third of his major league career, which is the early part of his career.

The 21-26 example is to demonstrate that the parts of their careers are defined by career duration, not age. Had Johnson not been in baseball in his 20s and started playing baseball at age 30, would 32 not be the early part of his career? If we're going by your logic using age as the defining test, it's not early in his career even though his debut would've been not too long ago.

Johnson's career began at 21. The fact that he wasn't very good up until he was about 30 doesn't change that he was still getting paid as part of a professional organization. By the time he was 34, which bizarrely enough you consider early 30's, he was 13 years into his career. I have no idea what one third of something has to do with "early". I've certainly never seen that definition in any dictionary but I think it's reasonable to consider the 9 years he played between '89 and '98 closer to one half of his 21 year career than one third.

Of course most of this just doesn't have much to do with anything. You're shitting your pants getting side tracked over what "early" means but we were talking about Johnson's coming out of no where and playing historically great baseball from the age of 35 on. Johnson's career after 35 is what made his entire career. Forget serious discussion of him being the best pitcher of all time, he likely wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame if he had a remotely normal career after age 34.

The fact that his entire career is built on what he did from age 35 on, right smack in the middle of the steroid era, looks awfully suspicious to me. You disagree but then again you see phantom references to arbitrary dates and MVPs in my posts and consider Mickey Mantle the Clay Buchholz of his generation.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

20 year career if you ignore the Sept. call up.

 

[steveringo]

RJ was an All-Star in his second season (first full season in the AL) at age 26. He led the league in strikeouts in hist 4th, 5th, 6th, & 7th seasons. He was 2nd in Cy Young voting in his 5th season, 3rd in his sixth season and won the award in his 7th at age 31 when he was already established as on of the most feared pitchers in the game. He went on to win four more in his 11th, 12th, 13th, 7 14th seasons....

Maddux was also an All-Star in his second full season. He was 3rd in Cy Young voting in his third season. He won in his 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th seasons...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Johnson's career began at 21. The fact that he wasn't very good up until he was about 30 doesn't change that he was still getting paid as part of a professional organization. By the time he was 34, which bizarrely enough you consider early 30's, he was 13 years into his career. I have no idea what one third of something has to do with "early". I've certainly never seen that definition in any dictionary but I think it's reasonable to consider the 9 years he played between '89 and '98 closer to one half of his 21 year career than one third.

Of course most of this just doesn't have much to do with anything. You're shitting your pants getting side tracked over what "early" means but we were talking about Johnson's coming out of no where and playing historically great baseball from the age of 35 on. Johnson's career after 35 is what made his entire career. Forget serious discussion of him being the best pitcher of all time, he likely wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame if he had a remotely normal career after age 34.

The fact that his entire career is built on what he did from age 35 on, right smack in the middle of the steroid era, looks awfully suspicious to me. You disagree but then again you see phantom references to arbitrary dates and MVPs in my posts and consider Mickey Mantle the Clay Buchholz of his generation.

Maybe it is suspicious. However, saying Johnson "came out of nowhere" when he turned 35 is completely false. He had never strung together that many great seasons in a row like he did in his 4 straight Cy Young seasons, but he had several great seasons before that which rival any individual season he had in that 4 year time frame.

Is it suspicious because of the era in which it occurred? Sure. I for one would not be surprised if it turned out Randy Johnson took steroids. His dominance in his late 30s is extremely rare for pitchers. Other pitchers have had great success in their late 30s outside of the steroid era however (Lefty Grove and Dazzy Vance come to mind)

 

[soxfan1468927]

20 year career if you ignore the Sept. call up.

Why would you ignore the September call up when you don't ignore his minor league seasons? He threw 140 professional innings in 1988 so following your logic it should be included in his professional career. And since you include the minor league seasons as his career, it spanned 24 seasons. I didn't count 1985 as he pitched under 30 innings.

So the beginning of his career would be 1986-1993 in which he struggled for most of it outside of 1993 when he finished 2nd in Cy Young voting. Middle would be 1994-2001 which he was an all time great, winning 4 Cy Young awards and posting a 172 ERA+ over 1600 innings. End would be 2002-2009 where he was still great in the beginning and then tailed off after he turned 41.

So which part really made his career? To me it looks like the middle of his career was the greatest. Is that really suspicious? Or is it the fact that at age 38 and age 40 he put up two great seasons? Cy Young put up a 193 ERA+ at age 41, Dazzy Vance put up a 189 ERA+ at age 39, Lefty Grove put up a 185 ERA+ at age 39, Ted Lyons put up an ERA+ of 173 at age 38 and a 171 at age 41.

 

[jalopy]

I've lost track of this thread completely. Is it accurate to say that Maddux had the better career but if you had to choose one pitcher for one game (at their pick) that would be Johnson?

 

[The Derski]

I've lost track of this thread completely. Is it accurate to say that Maddux had the better career but if you had to choose one pitcher for one game (at their pick) that would be Johnson?

I wouldn't give an edge to either of them career wise. I do agree with you on the second part.

 

[jalopy]

I wouldn't give an edge to either of them career wise. I do agree with you on the second part.

Take the names away and just look at the stats. It isn't even close.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Maybe it is suspicious. However, saying Johnson "came out of nowhere" when he turned 35 is completely false. He had never strung together that many great seasons in a row like he did in his 4 straight Cy Young seasons, but he had several great seasons before that which rival any individual season he had in that 4 year time frame.

Is it suspicious because of the era in which it occurred? Sure. I for one would not be surprised if it turned out Randy Johnson took steroids. His dominance in his late 30s is extremely rare for pitchers. Other pitchers have had great success in their late 30s outside of the steroid era however (Lefty Grove and Dazzy Vance come to mind)

Not really.

'95 and '97 were definitely excellent seasons but those are the only two which are remotely close to his geriatric run but neither had nearly the amount of IP. Heck, as incredible as the increase in rate stats were it really palls in comparison to the explosion in IP as he filed for Social Security. His first, second, fourth, and fifth most IP all come at age 35 and older!

I don't know how accurately you can really compare Johnson to Grove or Vance, who were out of baseball likely before RJ's father was even born, but it doesn't look like a good comparison anyway. Grove continued to put up great rate stats but his IP declined severely. Neither had any sort of real consistency.

I'm not saying a single season late in an athlete's career is indicative of anything but Johnson's entire Hall of Fame argument is based on what he did from 35 and beyond.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Why would you ignore the September call up when you don't ignore his minor league seasons? He threw 140 professional innings in 1988 so following your logic it should be included in his professional career. And since you include the minor league seasons as his career, it spanned 24 seasons. I didn't count 1985 as he pitched under 30 innings.

So the beginning of his career would be 1986-1993 in which he struggled for most of it outside of 1993 when he finished 2nd in Cy Young voting. Middle would be 1994-2001 which he was an all time great, winning 4 Cy Young awards and posting a 172 ERA+ over 1600 innings. End would be 2002-2009 where he was still great in the beginning and then tailed off after he turned 41.

So which part really made his career? To me it looks like the middle of his career was the greatest. Is that really suspicious? Or is it the fact that at age 38 and age 40 he put up two great seasons? Cy Young put up a 193 ERA+ at age 41, Dazzy Vance put up a 189 ERA+ at age 39, Lefty Grove put up a 185 ERA+ at age 39, Ted Lyons put up an ERA+ of 173 at age 38 and a 171 at age 41.

What do you and Stan say we just forget the words "early", "middle", "late", or any real variation?

You two are getting all worked up over the terminology that just isn't that important. What is important is Randy Johnson reached his athletic peak at the time when most athletes are winding down their careers.

Yes Left Grove put up a 185 ERA+ at age 39 but he also pitched roughly one hundred less innings than when he was about 10 years younger. Cy Young posted an ERA+ of 193 at age 41 but, again, he also pitched roughly one hundred less innings than when he was about 10 years younger. Ted Lyons put up great numbers in whichever years you mentioned but, again, he also pitched roughly one hundred less innings than when he was about 10 years younger. Not only did those guys put up those numbers in *SIGNIFICANTLY* less IP but they were also clear anomalies in their twilight years.

Plus I just don't know how well you can compare a modern player to these guys. Cy Young's career ended almost a century before RJ's began and the oldest of the group, Ted Lyons, had likely retired before RJ's father was born.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

You are kidding, right?

No I'm not. The wide strike zone helped Maddox in a big way. Granted he wasn't the only pitcher it helped, but during his time with the Braves the strikezone was a joke. Catchers could set up a foot outside or inside & get the call.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

Obviously, I'm taking Maddux.

But both outstanding pitchers.

 

[broncosmitty]

No I'm not. The wide strike zone helped Maddox in a big way. Granted he wasn't the only pitcher it helped, but during his time with the Braves the strikezone was a joke. Catchers could set up a foot outside or inside & get the call.

Their careers overlapped almost completely. It was GM's control that made him great. It was Johnson's control that held him back the first (whatever it was that was established earlier in this thread, Im still not sure.) of his career.

 

[Bulldog]

Maddux for many reasons ,mostly consistency. Johnson was incredible no question about that. I'll recite my favorite Maddux stat that will never be touched or even remotely approached again in the history of the game. Maddux won 15 or more games for 17 consecutive seasons. This included 2 strike shortened seasons. There are only 6 pitchers in the HoF who STARTED 15 or more for 15 consecutive seasons. It's an incredible record no one will ever come anywhere near. He was simply the best pitcher anyone has seen who's alive today.

No one could have stated the case for Maddux any better.

 

[steveringo]

Possible urban legend, but I remember the story from a Braves catcher.... He put down the sign, set up his mit, then glanced to the dugout for the next sign, and Maddux put the ball in the mitt...