Hard to believe that last good team Cleveland played in the EC was..

[Vitamike]

yah you dont know what you are talking about.

there has never been more talent in the NBA than right now.

The influx of foreign players and the college infrastructure, scouting, and coaching bring more talent to the NBA than anytime in history and its not even close.

20 years ago how many foreign players were in the NBA? Today- how many players are there?

20-30 years ago the college game didnt have nearly as many good teams, nearly as many good coaches, nearly as much money in a variety of programs. Today- if you can play- they will find you, coach you up- and get you to the NBA. Even 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier college teams pay coaches hundreds of thousands if not million of dollars- have huge staffs, etc.

Its not even close--- there has never been as much talent in the NBA as right now.

Wiggy, your post shows me you didn't dig very deep at all at what I was actually saying so I gueess I can see how you think I'm full of it. I wasn't talking about the talent level in NBA right now, rather over the data period timeline that begins for LBJ in 2005.

You point out a time line of 20 years ago, and since LBJ's data accumulated for more than half that time it's shows me you missed the mark regarding my points of the talent pool. Agreed, the talent level today, is far wider than it has ever been, however it truly is in its beginning stages, and is not as deep of a contributing factor even today, but it is gaining ground.

So yes it's wider, but not deeper with regards to increasing the percentage of super star talent comparable to KAJ's & Magics ERA IMO. I know there are anomalies like Ginobili & Nowitzki that fit that LBJ's era, but honestly, they are the outlier.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Lebron led teams have lost in the NBA finals 4 times... Jordan simply wouldn't let that happen... I'll give Lebron a pass when he lost Love and Irr

Wiggy, your post shows me you didn't dig very deep at all at what I was actually saying so I gueess I can see how you think I'm full of it. I wasn't talking about the talent level in NBA right now, rather over the data period timeline that begins for LBJ in 2005.

You point out a time line of 20 years ago, and since LBJ's data accumulated for more than half that time it's shows me you missed the mark regarding my points of the talent pool. Agreed, the talent level today, is far wider than it has ever been, however it truly is in its beginning stages, and is not as deep of a contributing factor even today, but it is gaining ground.

So yes it's wider, but not deeper with regards to increasing the percentage of super star talent comparable to KAJ's & Magics ERA IMO. I know there are anomalies like Ginobili & Nowitzki that fit that LBJ's era, but honestly, they are the outlier.

Lebron led teams have lost 4 times in the NBA finals, Jordan simply wouldn't let that happen... Teams were WAY better overall in the NBA back in the 80's and 90's ... The NBA is severely lacking good teams right now, 3 good teams this year, Spurs, Cavs, Warriors..... Other than that, the NBA is in a sad position right now... The only thing that's gonna save it is the monster match-up in the Finals...

 

[trojanfan12]

The 2017 NBA playoffs say hello. If there is "so much talent" why are 2 teams undefeated so far?

Imo, it's not that there is less talent, but rather that there is less developed talent. In the 80's and 90's players generally had at least 2 years of college under their belts before they went to the NBA. You had the occasional kid who came in straight out of high school, but that was pretty rare. The end result was players came into the NBA more developed as players and with a better grasp of the fundamentals.

Now, it seems like there are more one and dones every year and they are coming in still needing to learn basic fundamentals which adds to the time it takes for them to develop into true NBA level players.

 

[Vitamike]

Lebron led teams have lost in the NBA finals 4 times... Jordan simply wouldn't let that happen... I'll give Lebron a pass when he lost Love and Irr



Lebron led teams have lost 4 times in the NBA finals, Jordan simply wouldn't let that happen... Teams were WAY better overall in the NBA back in the 80's and 90's ... The NBA is severely lacking good teams right now, 3 good teams this year, Spurs, Cavs, Warriors..... Other than that, the NBA is in a sad position right now... The only thing that's gonna save it is the monster match-up in the Finals...

Boogie, you must not have read the thread, because you face-palmed my post, yet for the most part, rep the point I've been making in several posts with your post here.

 

[Vitamike]

Imo, it's not that there is less talent, but rather that there is less developed talent. In the 80's and 90's players generally had at least 2 years of college under their belts before they went to the NBA. You had the occasional kid who came in straight out of high school, but that was pretty rare. The end result was players came into the NBA more developed as players and with a better grasp of the fundamentals.

Now, it seems like there are more one and dones every year and they are coming in still needing to learn basic fundamentals which adds to the time it takes for them to develop into true NBA level players.

Agree, and further speaks to my point, considering the influx of international players too, of the league having a wider pool, just not nearly as deep.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Boogie, you must not have read the thread, because you face-palmed my post, yet for the most part, rep the point I've been making in several posts with your post here.

You faced palmed mine also because I felt Jordan was better than Lebron!!!

 

[Vitamike]

You faced palmed mine also because I felt Jordan was better than Lebron!!!

No way, that's wasn't the reason.....

This was ...

Had Jordan not gone to baseball he probably wins 8 straight titles in a row with Chicago...

While I will agree there is a 'decent possibility' that Jordan plays in 8 straight Finals, I think you are discrediting the Houston Rockets who hit their stride as B2B NBA Champions in those MJ less Bull seasons.

The Rockets hit their pinnacle in the '94 & '95 Playoffs, and would have been a hard out even had MJ stayed. So it was the 'probable' statement, since so many factors go into probabilities. MJ lost a hunger for the game so much he retired, and his two year sabbatical from the NBA and playing in the MLB, renewed his passion IMO. Who knows if the Bulls win 4 or 5 in a row if he didn't retire much less the final three that they did.

 

[larryjohn]

You mean the series where Larry Bird said "I think he's God disguised as Michael Jordan" after a game? The Bulls may have gotten swept but Jordan was unstoppable in that series. KC Jones has said he had trouble getting people to go in the game because no one wanted to guard Jordan

Yes ... also after that series, MJ was criticized for being selfish -- only worrying about how many points he scored. The common theme then was "Jordan doesn't make the players around him better -- he isn't like Magic & Bird." Phil J talked about how he pushed and pushed Jordan until his mentality changed. (e.g., "you have to keep passing to Horace -- he will improve if he knows you have confidence in him to catch & make a shot")

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

No way, that's wasn't the reason.....

This was ...

While I will agree there is a 'decent possibility' that Jordan plays in 8 straight Finals, I think you are discrediting the Houston Rockets who hit their stride as B2B NBA Champions in those MJ less Bull seasons.

The Rockets hit their pinnacle in the '94 & '95 Playoffs, and would have been a hard out even had MJ stayed. So it was the 'probable' statement, since so many factors go into probabilities. MJ lost a hunger for the game so much he retired, and his two year sabbatical from the NBA and playing in the MLB, renewed his passion IMO. Who knows if the Bulls win 4 or 5 in a row if he didn't retire much less the final three that they did.

Rockets wouldn't have won those titles had Mike stayed in the league, I would bet a huge amount of money on that... Actually I personally feel like the Sonics would a beat the Rockets anyone of those years had the teams met in the playoffs, the Sonics just choked 2 years in a row in the first round, but when they met that Rockets team in 96 they swept them aside 4-0 ... Rockets were fortunate that Mike went to baseball and Seattle had mental issues vs Denver and then the Lakers... Seattle had the Rockets number, even Hakeem admitted that, match-up issues..

 

[gordontrue]

Rockets wouldn't have won those titles had Mike stayed in the league, I would bet a huge amount of money on that...

I mean.... in 1995, Jordan was there when the Bulls lost to the Magic who then lost to the Rockets.

 

[Vitamike]

Rockets wouldn't have won those titles had Mike stayed in the league, I would bet a huge amount of money on that... Actually I personally feel like the Sonics would a beat the Rockets anyone of those years had the teams met in the playoffs, the Sonics just choked 2 years in a row in the first round, but when they met that Rockets team in 96 they swept them aside 4-0 ... Rockets were fortunate that Mike went to baseball and Seattle had mental issues vs Denver and then the Lakers... Seattle had the Rockets number, even Hakeem admitted that, match-up issues..

I see you understand 'fortune' except when applied to your own hero's. Again the sabbatical MJ took may have been the very reason the Bulls where able to win 3 more. Who knows if he even wins one more if he didn't retire considering his current state of mind.

After retiring the first time, MJ himself said...

"I've reached the pinnacle of my career. I just feel that I don't have anything else to prove. When I lose the sense of motivation and the sense of 'to prove something' as a basketball player, it's time for me to move away from the game of basketball." - Michael Jordan on retiring.​

You see losing the passion, steals the edge that is the slim margin between winning and losing. Obviously we can derive from MJ's retirement quote, that the time away helped MJ return the hunger, especially considering other quotes we heard from MJ when he returned. So IMO the probability of winning 8 straight has no real basis of 'probability' and is merely wishful ideas of the devoted fan.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

I mean.... in 1995, Jordan was there when the Bulls lost to the Magic who then lost to the Rockets.

He was rusty, you can't just focus on baseball for a couple years and jump right back in the NBA fire and expect to be sharp, as we saw the next year he ran the table, actually the next 3 years... They also spanked the Magic the next year in the East finals, sweeping them aside...

 

[shopson67]

This is so overstated. In the time frame mentioned, since the last time the Cavs supposedly faced a "good team" in the East.... they've beaten five 50-win EC teams and a 60-win EC team. Just because those teams weren't ultimately able to seriously threaten the Cavs doesn't mean they are suddenly not good teams.

Also.... Laker fans might want to think about Magic & Kareem before they start complaining about opponent difficulty:

2nd Round - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 51.9 wins
LeBron: 51.18 wins
Magic: 43.12 wins
Kareem: 42.71 wins

Conf Finals - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 58.5 wins
LeBron: 55.44 wins
Magic: 51.1 wins
Kareem: 52 wins

Finals - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 61.17 wins
LeBron: 61.91 wins
Magic: 60.44 wins
Kareem: 58.1 wins

Overall
Jordan: 53.54 wins
LeBron: 51.02 wins
Magic: 48.6 wins
Kareem: 48.55 wins

Take that for data

You left out the part where Jordan never lost a finals, while Lebron....well not so much.

 

[gordontrue]

You left out the part where Jordan never lost a finals, while Lebron....well not so much.

Ok. Thanks for contributing a random, well-known fact that has very little relevance to the discussion at hand.

 

[Shanemansj13]

The freakin Bulls 2 years ago before Gasol goes down with injury when they were up 2-1 in the series. They haven't played a legitimate threat since




Then people wonder why some of us what conferences eradicated

Why does it matter? They beat the Warriors. Keep the butthurt up. Only reason your threads arent in Fouled Out bc mods hate the Cavs. GL to your Raptors on the couch

 

[shopson67]

Ok. Thanks for contributing a random, well-known fact that has very little relevance to the discussion at hand.

It has plenty of relevance. Also, in terms of your other stats, the winning percentage of the teams you're comparing (Lakers, Bulls, Cavs, etc) would be important as well. In fact, the winning percentage differential is probably the key stat IMO.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Also, let's get one thing clear:

Yes lebron is a phenomenal player. HOF worthy and possible top 5 player of all time.

Yet he's hardly had ANY competition in the Eastern Conference playoffs.

Similiar competitiion to Mj actually. And MJ never beat the C's. He beat the Pistons 1 out of 4 times. He didnt beat anyone in the East either

 

[Shanemansj13]

This is so overstated. In the time frame mentioned, since the last time the Cavs supposedly faced a "good team" in the East.... they've beaten five 50-win EC teams and a 60-win EC team. Just because those teams weren't ultimately able to seriously threaten the Cavs doesn't mean they are suddenly not good teams.

Also.... Laker fans might want to think about Magic & Kareem before they start complaining about opponent difficulty:

2nd Round - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 51.9 wins
LeBron: 51.18 wins
Magic: 43.12 wins
Kareem: 42.71 wins

Conf Finals - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 58.5 wins
LeBron: 55.44 wins
Magic: 51.1 wins
Kareem: 52 wins

Finals - average playoff opponent
Jordan: 61.17 wins
LeBron: 61.91 wins
Magic: 60.44 wins
Kareem: 58.1 wins

Overall
Jordan: 53.54 wins
LeBron: 51.02 wins
Magic: 48.6 wins
Kareem: 48.55 wins

Take that for data

END OF THREAD

Nothing else needs to be said

 

[gordontrue]

It has plenty of relevance. Also, in terms of your other stats, the winning percentage of the teams you're comparing (Lakers, Bulls, Cavs, etc) would be important as well. In fact, the winning percentage differential is probably the key stat IMO.

My post was about how the competition level they faced compared to each other... had nothing to do with the results. It is pretty common knowledge that Jordan won 6 titles and LeBron has won 3.

That is an interesting idea, if I get a chance I might add a column for winning % differential. I'm curious to see what it would show.

 

[shopson67]

My post was about how the competition level they faced compared to each other... had nothing to do with the results. It is pretty common knowledge that Jordan won 6 titles and LeBron has won 3.

That is an interesting idea, if I get a chance I might add a column for winning % differential. I'm curious to see what it would show.

It might not show as much as I would anticipate, especially this year where the Cavs let off the gas and lost the #1 seed, but are clearly the class of the East (and it's not close).