Greatest pitcher of all time

[williewilliejuan]

Koufax had a great peak, but longevity matters.

He is disqualified merely by his association with the Dodgers.

 

[The Oldtimer]

In the discussion for greatest peaks(I don't think his was the best, the runs Maddux and Pedro went on in their peak were more impressive to me because of the far better offenses they were facing), but not in discussion for the best ever. Peaks are very important, but longevity matters.

And you're right.

 

[IronJaw]

I've always leaned towards Bob Gibson. Guy was clutch as hell when it mattered.

And he swung a pretty decent bat. I remember him clouting HRs in the World Series.

Mean too.

2 Cy Youngs, one NL MVP.

And 2 World Series MVPs.

Bob was one of my favorites. His World Series record was 7-2 and 8 of the 9 games were complete games. He homered off Jim Lonborg in Game 7 of the 1967 World Series. He also homered in the 1968 World Series against Detroit. He was one of two pitchers who hit 2 World Series home runs. Ironically, the two HR pitchers accomplished this in 4 consecutive seasons. Gibson, 1967-68, and Baltimore's Dave McNally (another favorite of mine) in 1969 against the Mets, and a grand slam in 1970 against the Reds (interestingly enough, another top pitcher on the Orioles, Mike Cuellar, hit a grand slam in the playoffs against the Twins in the 1970 ALCS...now what are the odds on that?!!!). Cuellar was a teammate of Bob Gibson during the 1964 season. In retrospect, the Cardinals would have been wise to keep the young Cuellar as he really developed into a terrific pitcher.

 

[The Oldtimer]

For a 5 year span, I'd put Steve Carlton in there too.

For a 5 year span, no one could/can beat Koufax.

 

[Rex Racer]

I don't think we have Jason's Deli around here.

None here either.

Just find a gay bar parking lot, @handicappers says it's the same thing.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

Bob was one of my favorites. His World Series record was 7-2 and 8 of the 9 games were complete games. He homered off Jim Lonborg in Game 7 of the 1967 World Series. He also homered in the 1968 World Series against Detroit. He was one of two pitchers who hit 2 World Series home runs. Ironically, the two HR pitchers accomplished this in 4 consecutive seasons. Gibson, 1967-68, and Baltimore's Dave McNally (another favorite of mine) in 1969 against the Mets, and a grand slam in 1970 against the Reds (interestingly enough, another top pitcher on the Orioles, Mike Cuellar, hit a grand slam in the playoffs against the Twins in the 1970 ALCS...now what are the odds on that?!!!). Cuellar was a teammate of Bob Gibson during the 1964 season. In retrospect, the Cardinals would have been wise to keep the young Cuellar as he really developed into a terrific pitcher.

Remember those 4 20 winners: Cuellar, McAnally, Palmer, Dobson.

 

[Shanemansj13]

For a 5 year span, no one could/can beat Koufax.

Walter aka GOAT has something to say about that. He had a 10 year span that was insane

 

[navamind]

In the discussion for greatest peaks(I don't think his was the best, the runs Maddux and Pedro went on in their peak were more impressive to me because of the far better offenses they were facing), but not in discussion for the best ever. Peaks are very important, but longevity matters.

Hell, I think Randy's peak was better. Koufax is the Albert Belle of pitchers. Belle was an amazing hitter, but only for about 5-6 seasons and the rest of his career was pretty meh. Koufax had 6 great (4 of which were historically good) but everything before those seasons were meh.

(or the Ralph Kiner of pitchers)

 

[Thruthefog]

Mark Fidrych

 

[Mofo]

Roid Rage Roger was just mad that Piazza owned him

note: i have no stats or data to back up this opinion, just a youtube video. welcome to 2020, y'all

Naw, you're correct. Mike Piazza batted .364/.440/.955 in 25 career plate appearances against Roger Clemens, including postseason. 4 HR (including a grand slam), to only 2 Ks.

 

[IronJaw]

Remember those 4 20 winners: Cuellar, McAnally, Palmer, Dobson.

That would be McNally...not McAnally...! The only reason I mentioned the probable typo is there was a MLB pitcher named Ernie MaAnally who pitched for the Expos. But, he was no real comparison to Dave McNally! Ironically, Dave McNally's final season was as a free agent with the Expos...he didn't have much left at the time (plus he was finally playing for a team that didn't provide a lot of support) so he called it a career in 1975 midway through the season.

 

[IronJaw]

For a 5 year span, I'd put Steve Carlton in there too.

Steve had some amazing seasons. He played most of his career with two very good franchises, St. Louis and Philadelphia (once the latter got going in the mid-70s). His best season was with one of Philly's worst seasons...1972. The Phillies had a 59-97 record (that season the teams played a 154-156 game season due to a strike during Spring Training that eliminated 6-8 early season games). Steve was 27-10 that year...winning almost half of his teams games - and doing much of it himself as he completed 30 games and threw 346 innings with 8 shutouts. He also had 23 hits while batting. The second best pitcher on the team was Wayne Twitchell, who was 7-7. I guess the only time they really played is when Steve was on the mound.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

That would be McNally...not McAnally...! The only reason I mentioned the probable typo is there was a MLB pitcher named Ernie MaAnally who pitched for the Expos. But, he was no real comparison to Dave McNally! Ironically, Dave McNally's final season was as a free agent with the Expos...he didn't have much left at the time (plus he was finally playing for a team that didn't provide a lot of support) so he called it a career in 1975 midway through the season.

Just a spelling error.

And as it turns out, this McNally played his last year in Montreal too.

This was all so long ago that I actually followed baseball then.....

 

[Cedrique]

That would be McNally...not McAnally...! The only reason I mentioned the probable typo is there was a MLB pitcher named Ernie MaAnally who pitched for the Expos. But, he was no real comparison to Dave McNally! Ironically, Dave McNally's final season was as a free agent with the Expos...he didn't have much left at the time (plus he was finally playing for a team that didn't provide a lot of support) so he called it a career in 1975 midway through the season.

McAnally seems like he was a back of the rotation guy

 

[navamind]

McAnally seems like he was a back of the rotation guy

I think he was a catcher for the Browns

 

[navamind]

IMO:

LHP:
1. Randy Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Warren Spahn
4. Steve Carlton
5. Clayton Kershaw

Kershaw could move up to 3 with some more good seasons. I like Spahn over Carlton because of better peak years (Spahn had thirteen seasons in top 10 in WAR, Carlton had 8). I'd take Carlton's 1972 and 1980 seasons over any of Spahn's best, but I think Spahn has far more good/great seasons than Carlton did (Spahn had 14 seasons of 4+ WAR, Carlton had 10). Grove had more WAR than Johnson, but I'd give Johnson the edge because of competition.

RHP:

1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Cy Young
4. Greg Maddux
5. Tom Seaver

This one is a lot tougher for me. Can't argue with swapping Johnson/Clemens, though I gave Clemens the edge due to the difference in competition. Johnson did have some amazing strikeout numbers for his era (a 7.6 K/9 in 1910 when the league average was 3.9, for instance). Could also put Maddux/Seaver over Young. You could also probably swap one of Maddux/Seaver with Mathewson/Pedro.

 

[Shanemansj13]

IMO:

LHP:
1. Randy Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Warren Spahn
4. Steve Carlton
5. Clayton Kershaw

Kershaw could move up to 3 with some more good seasons. I like Spahn over Carlton because of better peak years (Spahn had thirteen seasons in top 10 in WAR, Carlton had 8). I'd take Carlton's 1972 and 1980 seasons over any of Spahn's best, but I think Spahn has far more good/great seasons than Carlton did (Spahn had 14 seasons of 4+ WAR, Carlton had 10). Grove had more WAR than Johnson, but I'd give Johnson the edge because of competition.

RHP:

1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Cy Young
4. Greg Maddux
5. Tom Seaver

This one is a lot tougher for me. Can't argue with swapping Johnson/Clemens, though I gave Clemens the edge due to the difference in competition. Johnson did have some amazing strikeout numbers for his era (a 7.6 K/9 in 1910 when the league average was 3.9, for instance). Could also put Maddux/Seaver over Young. You could also probably swap one of Young/Maddux/Seaver with Mathewson/Pedro.

Agree with most of this but still have Walter as top RHP and I think Mathewson is seriously underrated. Pedro has to be in there for me.

LHP
1. Randy Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Warren Spahn
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Steve Carlton

Could move Carlton in front of Koufax bc of longevity, I just love Koufax's peak but really doesn't matter.

RHP
1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Pedro Martinez
4. Greg Maddux
5. Christy Mathewson

Seaver is right there for me. Young probably in the top 7 as well.

 

[jjc2009]

Imagine if professor Maddux used roids

You think scrawny Pedro did?

Pretty sure Ken Griffey Jr played clean too.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think he was a catcher for the Browns

He's lucky that he started playing after protection had been developed for that position

 

[IronJaw]

He's lucky that he started playing after protection had been developed for that position

I always think of the protection I used for the catching position in high school back in the 70s. Of course it was better than what was around in the 20s and 30s, but basically I wore a wire mask over a soft cap (nothing hanging down for the throat in those days). The umpires wore the same mask...some had their own...some borrowed ours. Shin guards weren't as developed as today, but they worked. Then, I look at the catcher's equipment that the kids on teams I coached from 2001-2011. Fancy stuff in little league, Babe Ruth League, Stan Musial League (I advanced to each division as my son was growing up). Their masks covered the entire head and throat and the shin guards seemed much more flexible. My grandfather played pro ball in the early part of the 20th Century as a catcher (1908-1916). He was property of the St. Louis Browns at one time (in those days there weren't actual farm clubs, but big league teams could own farm players on the minor league rosters). He had a coffee break or two with the browns, but he finally gave it up and bought a small farm in Missouri. Though Roger Bresnahan began wearing shin guards around 1907, many of the minor leaguers didn't have them yet, and those who were wearing them were often made fun of for wearing them (sort of like wearing helmets and goalie masks in pro hockey before both became mandatory...and facemasks in football during the early 50s). Grandpa had spike scars up and down his legs. He always said you had to be a pretty good wrestler and boxer to play the catching position in his day.