Grandal

[richig07]

I think Grandal will become a big fan favorite in Chicago. He will be a deep injection well of baseball knowledge that will keep the infield focused - the pitchers confident and provide his share of the offensive fireworks. He not only fits the description of a baseball catcher, but he is the embodiment of the guy who can make his teammates better by his presence.

Clearly not if people are actually dumb enough to think a .246 career batting average is more valuable than a career .350 OBP. Even though the guy with the .350 OBP also outslugs the other over each of their careers by almost 60 points and has a 32 point higher OPS+.

That's next level stupid.

 

[richig07]

stupid thing to say considering mccann has a higher lifetime avg.
let's ignore the fact you missed entirely my point that yasmani is a hitter for a half season and does, more often, what mccann is accused of.

look, i admit yasmani has a bigger bat than mccann in total because he has more hr power (something the sox aren't short of anyway). however, he's a much worse fielding catcher. in 8 years yasmani has accumulated a life time 2.3 dwar. in only 6 year mccann has accumulated a 4.7. don't know about you, but i'd rather have the better fielder than the little bit extra bat for a team that doesn't need it.

The guy with a career .350 OBP... who slugs 60 points higher with a 111 points higher OPS and a 32 points higher OPS+ is only a MARGINALLY better bat? Because one has an average of .246 vs .241.

.246 average > .350 OBP

Even though Grandal led all catchers in weighted on-base as well.

Because "singles are moar better... even when the other guy also hits for more power across the board". Keep running with this!

It's not like Grandal led all catchers in WRC+. Wait... he did.

Did you just use baseball reference's dwar to compare catcher defense?

Wow. You did! Holy hell, you've done it! You've completed the entire round-about of how to F this up.

 

[richig07]

This thread is the kind of sh*t that happens when you pay 73 million to a guy that hits .241.

lol batting average indeed.

Jiddy... Follow me here.

In 2019, Yasmani Grandal had an OBP of .380. This led all catchers.

In 2019, Yasmani Grandal also had a weighted on-base of .361. This led all catchers. Weighted on-base accounts for points based on the value of your on-base trips. A double is weighted for more than a walk/single, a triple more than a double and a home run more than a triple.

So, not only did Grandal get on-base at the highest clip in baseball at the catcher position. His trips on-base were for more bases and more valuable towards run production than all other catchers.

Now... with this knowledge. Explain to me why in the holy hell it matters that his batting average isn't high?

@idseer feel free to jump in.

 

[idseer]

The guy with a career .350 OBP... who slugs 60 points higher with a 111 points higher OPS and a 32 points higher OPS+ is only a MARGINALLY better bat? Because one has an average of .246 vs .241.

.246 average > .350 OBP

Even though Grandal led all catchers in weighted on-base as well.

Because "singles are moar better... even when the other guy also hits for more power across the board". Keep running with this!

It's not like Grandal led all catchers in WRC+. Wait... he did.

Did you just use baseball reference's dwar to compare catcher defense?

Wow. You did! Holy hell, you've done it! You've completed the entire round-about of how to F this up.

first i didn't bring up average. i was saying that in response to what navamind said. next, i admitted grandal has a bigger bat, didn't i? or did you miss that too? MY point was that his bat advantage is outweighed by two facts. one, we don't NEED that extra bat as this team seems loaded at the plate and TWO he's a poor fielder compared to mccann. catching is a position that requires good defense. the bat is secondary. obviously you don't understand dwar. too bad for you.

 

[idseer]

Jiddy... Follow me here.

In 2019, Yasmani Grandal had an OBP of .380. This led all catchers.

In 2019, Yasmani Grandal also had a weighted on-base of .361. This led all catchers. Weighted on-base accounts for points based on the value of your on-base trips. A double is weighted for more than a walk/single, a triple more than a double and a home run more than a triple.

So, not only did Grandal get on-base at the highest clip in baseball at the catcher position. His trips on-base were for more bases and more valuable towards run production than all other catchers.

Now... with this knowledge. Explain to me why in the holy hell it matters that his batting average isn't high?

@idseer feel free to jump in.

i'd be glad to. catchers aren't very good bats ... historically NOR in today's game. in other words saying he led all catchers in "Weighted on-base" isn't all that impressive.

and btw: wOBA ScaleClassificationRangeElite.400 and AboveVery Good.371 to .399Good.321 to .370Average.320Bad.291 to .320Very Bad.290 and below

.361 works out to "good". big deal.

btw, sherman lollar had a higher lifetime wOBA than yasmani. and he wasn't a perennial allstar because of his bat.

 

[idseer]

btw, that .361 wOBA ranked 73rd in the majors. like i said. good for catchers but then good catchers aren't noted for their hitting.
realmuto was only .340. who would YOU rather have?

 

[richig07]

first i didn't bring up average. i was saying that in response to what navamind said. next, i admitted grandal has a bigger bat, didn't i? or did you miss that too? MY point was that his bat advantage is outweighed by two facts. one, we don't NEED that extra bat as this team seems loaded at the plate and TWO he's a poor fielder compared to mccann. catching is a position that requires good defense. the bat is secondary. obviously you don't understand dwar. too bad for you.

He is one of the best defensive catcher's in baseball. McCann is one of the worst. GOOD GOD. Lol.

Yes, DWar which doesn't take into account blocking balls, pitch reception or how a pitcher on the mound impacts a catcher's throw out percentage. F'ING genius. Let's remove everything important for a catcher... and insert things like "total defensive chances" "raw throw out percentage" and "raw total assists" for catchers as the most important.

White Sox were 29th in total defense rating at catcher last year. Brewers were 1st in total defense rating and frame rate. Grandal was 3rd in baseball in defensive rating as an individual behind only Realmuto and Vazquez. He was #1 in frame rating

White Sox had a -18.4 frame rate. Which is nearly impossible it is so bad. While the Brewers had a 23.3. FAR AND AWAY the best.

Defensively, Yasmani Grandal is Patrick Mahomes or prime Tom Brady. While James McCann is Mitchell Trubisky.

Major League Team Stats » 2019 » Catchers » Fielding Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[richig07]

btw, that .361 wOBA ranked 73rd in the majors. like i said. good for catchers but then good catchers aren't noted for their hitting.
realmuto was only .340. who would YOU rather have?

73rd in baseball is a really, really good hitter.

Positions are graded on their value against each other offensively. Grandal to the middle of the pack is a huge drop off for catching offense. Just as Pete Alonso to the middle of the pack for 1B is.

Realmuto is probably the only catcher anyone in their right mind would consider taking over Grandal.

Grandal is basically 2nd best defensively while Realmuto is 1st. Yet, they flip-flop offensively. Take your pick. No wrong choice.

James McCann is a poor defensive catcher who has had one good half season of hitting that was inflated by an impossible BABIP. Before he went to the putrid self he's always been overall.

 

[richig07]

i'd be glad to. catchers aren't very good bats ... historically NOR in today's game. in other words saying he led all catchers in "Weighted on-base" isn't all that impressive.

and btw: wOBA ScaleClassificationRangeElite.400 and AboveVery Good.371 to .399Good.321 to .370Average.320Bad.291 to .320Very Bad.290 and below

.361 works out to "good". big deal.

btw, sherman lollar had a higher lifetime wOBA than yasmani. and he wasn't a perennial allstar because of his bat.

Yeah, I'm sure a guy who had a 30 career WAR and some of the eras best catching production at the plate only made the all-star game because of his glove. lol


BTW, Sherman Lollar has a shit dWAR by your standards. Only 3 years out of 18 was he over 1.0. Never hit 1.5.

But.... dWAR? dWAR? Yeah?

 

[richig07]

Catching is a nuanced position. Hence, why it is so important. You do not measure it in raw totals of chances, putouts, assists, etc... Useless.

 

[richig07]

@idseer

And this was before his elite defensive year in Milwaukee. Written up when he had just signed.

What to expect from Yasmani Grandal

Milwaukee is getting one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Baseball Prospectus compiles a statistic that encapsulates a player’s defensive skills called Fielding Runs Above Average (FRAA). It is compiled by using play-by-play data with adjustments made based on plays made, the expected number of plays per position, and a few other variables. Grandal’s FRAA was 17.7, which was second among all catchers in baseball. His FRAA for the previous three years was even better producing 27.7 in 2017, 33.6 in 33.6, and 25.6 in 2015. He is also a renowned pitch framer (second best in MLB in 2018 with RAA of 13.8). His 44 Defensive Runs Saved is 4th in MLB over the past five years.

Yasmani Grandal scouting report: Why the White Sox's new catcher will make a big difference on the South Side

(a write-up of 2019 for McCann and Grandal)

Grandal's pitch presentation was worth more than 19 runs in 2019, which was second to only Austin Hedges of the San Diego Padres, according to Baseball Prospectus. Last season marked the sixth in a row that his framing had contributed at least 15 runs. Chicago's incumbent catcher James McCann, meanwhile, lost eight runs of value through framing.

The White Sox could see a 20-something-run swing in that regard, or about two wins' worth -- all because Grandal is better than McCann at sticking pitches.






So, it's not just Fangraphs. But... Baseball Prospectus has their analytics perfectly in-line here as well. Grandal is fantastic and McCann is shit.

 

[Mingo]

Clearly not if people are actually dumb enough to think a .246 career batting average is more valuable than a career .350 OBP. Even though the guy with the .350 OBP also outslugs the other over each of their careers by almost 60 points and has a 32 point higher OPS+.

That's next level stupid.

You lost me. Who are you comparing Grandal to?

 

[idseer]

He is one of the best defensive catcher's in baseball. McCann is one of the worst. GOOD GOD. Lol.

Yes, DWar which doesn't take into account blocking balls, pitch reception or how a pitcher on the mound impacts a catcher's throw out percentage. F'ING genius. Let's remove everything important for a catcher... and insert things like "total defensive chances" "raw throw out percentage" and "raw total assists" for catchers as the most important.

White Sox were 29th in total defense rating at catcher last year. Brewers were 1st in total defense rating and frame rate. Grandal was 3rd in baseball in defensive rating as an individual behind only Realmuto and Vazquez. He was #1 in frame rating

White Sox had a -18.4 frame rate. Which is nearly impossible it is so bad. While the Brewers had a 23.3. FAR AND AWAY the best.

Defensively, Yasmani Grandal is Patrick Mahomes or prime Tom Brady. While James McCann is Mitchell Trubisky.

Major League Team Stats » 2019 » Catchers » Fielding Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

you are clueless! throw in all the bullshit stats you want .. the fact is yesmani does NOT block balls better than mccann, yas = 8 passed balls vs 3 for mccann. yasmani cs% = .270 (which is terrible ) vs .315 for mccann. you suggest dw is meaningless ..... i suggest you're a baseball idiot. idiots like you pull numbers out of your ass but ONLY the ones that tend to lean your way. mccann is a better catcher than grandel and it's not even close.

 

[idseer]

Yeah, I'm sure a guy who had a 30 career WAR and some of the eras best catching production at the plate only made the all-star game because of his glove. lol


BTW, Sherman Lollar has a shit dWAR by your standards. Only 3 years out of 18 was he over 1.0. Never hit 1.5.

But.... dWAR? dWAR? Yeah?

more "out of ass" talk. lollar's lifetime dwar is better than 11 hall of fame catchers. and it's more than 3 times better than grandal's. catchers' dwar don't compare well to any other position so you can't make comparisons like you do. everything you've posted here is bullshit

buster posey has only 3 years of over 1.0 dwar. lol but he sucks too, right?

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

idiots like you pull numbers out of your ass but ONLY the ones that tend to lean your way.

Define irony.

 

[idseer]

Define irony.

that's when a shirt has recently been ironed. it's all irony.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

that's when a shirt has recently been ironed. it's all irony.

LOL, I'll give you that one id. Nice to see you with a sense of humor.

 

[idseer]

LOL, I'll give you that one id. Nice to see you with a sense of humor.

but ok i'll give you a more serious answer. yes, we all tend to use cherry picked facts in our positions. but i DO try to use facts that people actually understand as opposed to fraa, bapip, frame rates, Rpos, and on and on. i call them the alphabet soup of the day. i would imagine you could make anyone look better than they are by using an assortment of "facts" made up by someone in his basement.
i even hesitate to use dwar but at least i do understand that and it's a figure that has withstood the test of time. it's not perfect but it's as useful as any to base a good opinion of a player on. i just don't use shit pulled out of someone's ass. i think richgig actually believes yasmnai is a great catcher (even greater than you think he is). wow! is someone going to be disappointed by the end of this year!

 

[Jiddy]

Yasmani Grandal is on his 4th team in 9 years. He has hit half the mendoza line over 33 playoff games (good f*cking lord)...has a .241 batting average over his career...and was available for the entire MLB this offseason where we-notorious for being outbid-won his services on the relatively cheap if you really think he's that f*cking great. (I don't...so we overpaid imo...but that could just me being a cheapass...so every one is overpaid lulz)

Grandal's not an A free agent nor will he be the difference maker in us turning around.

I don't care what kind of non-standard stats you throw on the f*cking wall. It's all bullsh*t. He is what he is. A B/C free agent tops that is a solid piece, but not a difference maker. Hyping him up and turning our offseason into some kind of "ZOMG greatest offseason ever" with him as the anchor of that argument is dumb as all hell. If we're any good, it's going to fall 80-90% on the players we already on the roster and in the minors stepping up their game to expectancy.

We had a decent offseason...but it was not great...just like the Grandal signing on its own...decent...but not great.

 

[Mingo]

This is why they play the games.

A few points:

1) The way Grandal sets up for catching aids his pitch framing, but increases his passed balls.

2) From what I understand about good baseball play - Grandal will have a beneficial effect on Sox defensive fielding and pitcher confidence. His head is in the game and he makes other people better.

3) I don't know where Renteria will bat Grandal, but he is an ideal 2 hole hitter with his OBP and decent power. Moncada needs to be lower in the batting order anyway.