Random Thoughts

[Mingo]

Did Hahn stuff this lineup with home run hitters to increase or decrease the likelihood Renteria will call a surprise bunt?

Counter intuitive thought - will adding a couple of groundball pitchers improve the Sox' fielding? Answer - Yes - fielders always play better when they are expecting the ball to be hit to them. Strikeout pitchers put fielders asleep.

I heard an interview with Madrigal. It sounded to me like he has spent the off season trying to get stronger - head to toe. I hope he doesn't have it in his mind to prove he can hit home runs (unless, of course - he can).

When you consider how long it took Moncada and Giolito to master their major league game - what Eloy did last year is astonishing.

I hope Reynaldo Lopez is one of those guys who pitch great in even numbered years.

Personally - I think Cease may be the best pitcher out of all of the young guys.

Moncada is the most important player to get signed to a contract extension.

Last year Anderson's bat flip had pitchers chucking the ball directly at him - this year the Sox have made it part of the Marketing campaign (Anderson's bobblehead with have a bat flip) - he gave a bat flip academy at SoxFest for kids. I don't think Anderson will get thrown at this year - its no longer a matter of Anderson showing up the pitcher - but now a marketing angle to gin up more money -something all the players understand.

Jake Burger - what a horrible start to his career - I hope he makes it - he's a very likeable fellow.

I hope the Sox can make a decent relief pitcher out of Carson Fulmer - I've given up on him as a starter.

I really excited about seeing Luis Robert one of the first touted 5 tool players I've seen actually display all the talents last year.

Bummer will be the closer by the end of the year.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

Good stuff overall, but to me far and away your most important talking point is your line on Moncada. If there is one member of the team who Hahn should work hard on a workable extension, no question, it's Yoan. Giolito would be a semi-distant #2.

 

[richig07]

Did Hahn stuff this lineup with home run hitters to increase or decrease the likelihood Renteria will call a surprise bunt?

Counter intuitive thought - will adding a couple of groundball pitchers improve the Sox' fielding? Answer - Yes - fielders always play better when they are expecting the ball to be hit to them. Strikeout pitchers put fielders asleep.

I heard an interview with Madrigal. It sounded to me like he has spent the off season trying to get stronger - head to toe. I hope he doesn't have it in his mind to prove he can hit home runs (unless, of course - he can).

When you consider how long it took Moncada and Giolito to master their major league game - what Eloy did last year is astonishing.

I hope Reynaldo Lopez is one of those guys who pitch great in even numbered years.

Personally - I think Cease may be the best pitcher out of all of the young guys.

Moncada is the most important player to get signed to a contract extension.

Last year Anderson's bat flip had pitchers chucking the ball directly at him - this year the Sox have made it part of the Marketing campaign (Anderson's bobblehead with have a bat flip) - he gave a bat flip academy at SoxFest for kids. I don't think Anderson will get thrown at this year - its no longer a matter of Anderson showing up the pitcher - but now a marketing angle to gin up more money -something all the players understand.

Jake Burger - what a horrible start to his career - I hope he makes it - he's a very likeable fellow.

I hope the Sox can make a decent relief pitcher out of Carson Fulmer - I've given up on him as a starter.

I really excited about seeing Luis Robert one of the first touted 5 tool players I've seen actually display all the talents last year.

Bummer will be the closer by the end of the year.

I heard an interview with Madrigal. It sounded to me like he has spent the off season trying to get stronger - head to toe. I hope he doesn't have it in his mind to prove he can hit home runs (unless, of course - he can).

Well, he does need to show that he can hit for some power. Not necessarily home runs, but we do need some gap-to-gap type of power. That is if you believe he's the future for us as a contender at 2B and in the lead-off spot. If you think he's just a great defensive guy that you can get away with hitting lower in the order? That's different.

We don't need Jose Altuve power. However, we do need more than a weak singles hitter if he's really going to be a marquee guy. Or else he's just... Brock Holt.

Counter intuitive thought - will adding a couple of groundball pitchers improve the Sox' fielding? Answer - Yes - fielders always play better when they are expecting the ball to be hit to them. Strikeout pitchers put fielders asleep.

It's also very easy to defend when the batter doesn't put the ball in play. I highly, highly doubt that we are intentionally inviting opposing hitters to make contact against us. I also have never seen any data that backs up the old "strike outs puts the defense to sleep" cliché.

I hope Reynaldo Lopez is one of those guys who pitch great in even numbered years.

I just hope he can pitch, period. Honestly, though - we aren't in a spot where we totally need Lopez to come through for us and establish in the rotation. We have a pretty good contingency plan in place with guys around him. Personally, with his velo and movement? I think he could potentially profile as a good reliever. Especially seeing as he tends to just have that 1 bad inning in his starts. You ask him to just get you 3 outs? He might be good in that role.

Personally - I think Cease may be the best pitcher out of all of the young guys.

He might have the best stuff. He's shown some flashes where he's put some brilliant starts together. His command has been all over the place, though. He's very similar to what Giolito was early on. But I would have to see him string together some success before praising him along those lines. Even Kopech showed more consistency in his limited time in 2018. Before the game he tried to pitch through his UCL injury, of course.

Jake Burger - what a horrible start to his career - I hope he makes it - he's a very likeable fellow.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. With the drafting of Vaughn, though. I feel like there's no spot for him. This is a guy who topped out at high-A ball before this mess started. The big leagues are unlikely and if he does make it? I don't think it will be in a White Sox uniform.

I hope the Sox can make a decent relief pitcher out of Carson Fulmer - I've given up on him as a starter.

We just got rid of Covey for good. I would not mind seeing Fulmer follow. I am ready for the Carson Fulmer era to end. Enough.

 

[Mingo]

Thanks @richig07 great responses.

One of the things I was thinking today was that Giolito and Cease both have super enthusiastic attitude about perfecting their craft as pitchers. Whenever either one gets interviewed they are actively working on getting better. In a recent article Giolito - who had famously worked on his pitching form prior to last season - this off season he spent the time experimenting with holding a releasing the ball in various different ways. Cease does meditations - and various physical strengthening and limbering exercises. I like their chances to be very good starters based on what I have seen of their commitment to excelling.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

I want to touch on two of your responses richi:

Well, he (Madrigal) does need to show that he can hit for some power. Not necessarily home runs, but we do need some gap-to-gap type of power. That is if you believe he's the future for us as a contender at 2B and in the lead-off spot. If you think he's just a great defensive guy that you can get away with hitting lower in the order? That's different.

We don't need Jose Altuve power. However, we do need more than a weak singles hitter if he's really going to be a marquee guy. Or else he's just... Brock Holt.

*************

We just got rid of Covey for good. I would not mind seeing Fulmer follow. I am ready for the Carson Fulmer era to end. Enough.

Because I agree wholeheartedly with both. As huge of a fan as I've been of Madrigal, going back to him being my choice for the Sox to draft him in '18, he'll need to show that he's more than just a singles hitter with a great glove. You mentioned Brock Holt, but I'll also bring up as a comparison Yolmer Sanchez. Of course I expect Madrigal to ht for much better average, but Sanchez was also a singles hitter with a great glove and look where that got him. What I expect out of Madrigal tho is a plus average hitter who also finds the gaps and foul line edges with his bat and knocks a bunch of doubles, even some triples with his legs. And of course we simply can't discount Madrigal's insane ability to avoid striking out. A ball in play gives a hitter a chance, along with any runners that may be on base as well.

Now on to Fulmer, short and sweet. He has been a total bust to date, no questions asked. And unlike some of our other 1st round busts to date, he doesn't even have the luxury of blaming his woes on injuries. Either he shows 100% improvement this year or cut/trade him.

 

[Jiddy]

My random thought is that I want to be at all star break and Mingo and msgkings are posting Denny Green "They are who we thought they were" memes while richi writes a 7500 word eulogy about how my posting is no longer relevant because I dared question this team....and LSD is like "You (and the rest of the planet) are still alright in my book...but f*ck you for your 2019 posting. You deserve this comeuppance."

Is that so much to ask?

 

[Jiddy]

Oh...and I still don't trust Reynaldo Lopez...He was horrendous for a half of a season. I started to come around to him as he improved in the second half...but that 6.xx ERA sh*t is done in my book...We better not see that kind of production again this season out of ANY of our pitchers...

 

[idseer]

once again, i disagree ... with the notion madrigal has to be some kind of gap/power hitter. IF the team lives up to your expectations ...... eloy, yoan, tim, jose, luis, etc. ... he won't be "needed" that way. he'll need a great glove (ala sanchez) and hit .280 with lots of walks. i'b be ecstatic if he could do this!
in my opinion sanchez didn't even need to be replaced. witness omar infante, joe panick, ryan theriot, skip schumaker, freddy sanchez ... all W.S. winning 2nd basemen from just this decade!

it'll be good enough if he's just a good fielding decent hitter with a good eye. stop throwing expectations around only to disappoint yourselves later on.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

and LSD is like "You (and the rest of the planet) are still alright in my book...but f*ck you for your 2019 posting."

Oh yeah, well let me tell you something Jiddy!!! Um uh.....actually, that's kind of spot on.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

once again, i disagree ... with the notion madrigal has to be some kind of gap/power hitter. IF the team lives up to your expectations ...... eloy, yoan, tim, jose, luis, etc. ... he won't be "needed" that way. he'll need a great glove (ala sanchez) and hit .280 with lots of walks. i'b be ecstatic if he could do this!
in my opinion sanchez didn't even need to be replaced. witness omar infante, joe panick, ryan theriot, skip schumaker, freddy sanchez ... all W.S. winning 2nd basemen from just this decade!

it'll be good enough if he's just a good fielding decent hitter with a good eye. stop throwing expectations around only to disappoint yourselves later on.

I agree that the pressure on Nick will be much less if the other 8 bats come thru, especially in the power dept. We don't need 9 power bats, at least not when one of them can hit in the high .200's/low .300's, as well as steal bases and possess a strong glove. But you yourself said you didn't think Sanchez needed to be replaced. If Madrigal can't hit for a higher average and better OPS, then you'd be right. I think that's the point. He has to show that he's more than just a great glove and a .250 singles hitter. BTW, one area of offense we probably shouldn't count on Madrigal to be is that of a walking machine. While his PA/SO ratio has been flat out off the charts in his short minor league career, the same can't be said with his BB. He's only walked 1 in 12 AB. Not terrible by any stretch, but nothing to write home about either.

 

[idseer]

I agree that the pressure on Nick will be much less if the other 8 bats come thru, especially in the power dept. We don't need 9 power bats, at least not when one of them can hit in the high .200's/low .300's, as well as steal bases and possess a strong glove. But you yourself said you didn't think Sanchez needed to be replaced. If Madrigal can't hit for a higher average and better OPS, then you'd be right. I think that's the point. He has to show that he's more than just a great glove and a .250 singles hitter. BTW, one area of offense we probably shouldn't count on Madrigal to be is that of a walking machine. While his PA/SO ratio has been flat out off the charts in his short minor league career, the same can't be said with his BB. He's only walked 1 in 12 AB. Not terrible by any stretch, but nothing to write home about either.

no. he DOESN'T have to show that. the only reason they let sanchez go is because of the $$$. madrigal will only have to roughly compare to that to make him worth it because he'll make 1/12th the money. so no, i don't see the point.
obviously we'd all like to see more than that but it won't be the end if we don't.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

no. he DOESN'T have to show that.

Yes he does. Madrigal isn't some surprise mid-late round gem who has pleasantly snuck thru the system. He was the 4th pick in the '18 draft. We should have high expectations from him, not simply count on a Yolmeresque performance in his Sox career. Anything less than a high OBP and GG-caliber defense will have meant that he wasn't worth the super high selection.

 

[richig07]

no. he DOESN'T have to show that. the only reason they let sanchez go is because of the $$$. madrigal will only have to roughly compare to that to make him worth it because he'll make 1/12th the money. so no, i don't see the point.
obviously we'd all like to see more than that but it won't be the end if we don't.

That's what we want out of the #4 overall pick in the draft and top 20 overall MLB prospect. Yolmer freakin Sanchez? The guy who slashes a career .244/.299/.357 (.656 OPS). That's the mark of a top MLB positional prospect really panning out for us.

Yolmer Sanchez. The guy who is so coveted by Major League Baseball that he just inked a minor league contract with the San Francisco Giants. There's the franchise 2B and lead-off hitter for the duration of our contending window. Just be that guy and we're going places!

If the White Sox wanted Yolmer back. They could have signed him when he hit the open market. Lord knows his price wasn't being driven up.

 

[richig07]

in my opinion sanchez didn't even need to be replaced. witness omar infante, joe panick, ryan theriot, skip schumaker, freddy sanchez ... all W.S. winning 2nd basemen from just this decade!

Did you just name two part-time Cardinals who barely saw post-season action in 2011. The same team? They were both the starting 2B, huh?

- Theriot posted a combined 0.0 WAR for STL and SF in those seasons in a part-time role. He had 5 combined PA's for the Giants during the 12 post-season and 13 for the Cardinals in 11. He mostly played SS with STL.

- Skip Schumaker was a part-time player who had a combined 21 PA's during the post-season when the Cardinals won the 11 world series.



Moving on...



- Omar Infante never won a world series.

- Joe Panik sucks... now... But he did win a world series. He also started out his career slashing .305/.343/.368 (.711) in his first season (the world series win) and .312/.378/.455 (.833) in his second where he was an all-star.

Then, he went totally in the shitter. We would all love Madrigal to produce like 14-15 Panik. No one would debate you there. The issue is that you're using the name "Joe Panik" to establish a poor offensive 2B winning a World Series. When, in fact, he was posting fantastic production at the plate.

- Freddy Sanchez is a 3-time all-star. Who won a batting title in 2006 hitting .344 and leading the league in double. Slashing a career .297/.335/.416. He made all-star games in 06, 07 and 09. In 2010 when SF won the WS, he slashed .292/.342/.397.


So, you're naming guys who were very good offensive 2B and then guys who literally just didn't play much of a role for their teams at all. None of these people have anything to do with Yolmer Sanchez.

 

[Jiddy]

Yes he does. Madrigal isn't some surprise mid-late round gem who has pleasantly snuck thru the system. He was the 4th pick in the '18 draft. We should have high expectations from him, not simply count on a Yolmeresque performance in his Sox career. Anything less than a high OBP and GG-caliber defense will have meant that he wasn't worth the super high selection.

That's what we want out of the #4 overall pick in the draft and top 20 overall MLB prospect.

More bullsh*t talk about "what should be"...like as if a draft pick is some sort of guarantee. How many top ten picks from 2015/2016/2017 have produced anything of serious consequence by the 2019 season? Bregman? Maybe a couple others that did some stuff. Over 75% of them haven't done sh*t at this point...That calculates out to....Likelihood is that Madrigal doesn't do sh*t until...2022...if anything at all.

Our management, and thus in lock step our fans, are consistently playing this "watch what's coming from the young guys" card...but the reality is that the odds are stacked heavily against us in each individual case. Because that's just what it is.

*shakes head* Our OWN top ten picks from 15/16/17 (I guess you can count Burger too at 11)...Zilch from any of them up to this point. NOTHING...NADA...NIET...POTATO SALAD. Be it from production, inexperience, injury, depth at the position or otherwise. It doesn't matter. NOTHING. The big zonkarooni.

"But Nick Madrigal's gonna save the day. We expect and should expect this because draft pick #4."

Nah...How about he at least becomes Yolmer f*cking Sanchez first..where he actually does SOMETHING at the MLB level? Then we'll talk about the next step.

Odds are against him. Not for him. Just like every other prospect. It's pure math boys. And our young guys have a a lot of math to overcome....on the actual MLB field vs the best of the best. (Well, unless we're playing Detroit.)

Is it season yet? I'm ready to find out. But let's not act as if the odds are heavily stacking in our favor, which is why this whole offseason has been ridiculously overzealous for White Sox fans. Our team and players have a lot of proving to do before they earn that WS is coming to town sooner than later kind of expectation.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

...richi writes a 7500 word eulogy

More bullsh*t talk about "what should be"...like as if a draft pick is some sort of guarantee. How many top ten picks from 2015/2016/2017 have produced anything of serious consequence by the 2019 season? Bregman? Maybe a couple others that did some stuff. Over 75% of them haven't done sh*t at this point...That calculates out to....Likelihood is that Madrigal doesn't do sh*t until...2022...if anything at all.

Our management, and thus in lock step our fans, are consistently playing this "watch what's coming from the young guys" card...but the reality is that the odds are stacked heavily against us in each individual case. Because that's just what it is.

*shakes head* Our OWN top ten picks from 15/16/17 (I guess you can count Burger too at 11)...Zilch from any of them up to this point. NOTHING...NADA...NIET...POTATO SALAD. Be it from production, inexperience, injury, depth at the position or otherwise. It doesn't matter. NOTHING. The big zonkarooni.

"But Nick Madrigal's gonna save the day. We expect and should expect this because draft pick #4."

Nah...How about he at least becomes Yolmer f*cking Sanchez first..where he actually does SOMETHING at the MLB level? Then we'll talk about the next step.

Odds are against him. Not for him. Just like every other prospect. It's pure math boys. And our young guys have a a lot of math to overcome....on the actual MLB field vs the best of the best. (Well, unless we're playing Detroit.)

Is it season yet? I'm ready to find out. But let's not act as if the odds are heavily stacking in our favor, which is why this whole offseason has been ridiculously overzealous for White Sox fans. Our team and players have a lot of proving to do before they earn that WS is coming to town sooner than later kind of expectation.

You were saying.........

 

[Mingo]

@Jiddy

Make some room for those White Sox fans - by whatever perversion of intellect or heart - who like the cycle of White Sox life. Start off hoping everything will click and the Sox win the championship - Then think - just stay close to 500 hundred baseball and get hot (like the Sox did in 83) - the next stage is all about hoping just to get to 500 on the season - the last stage ends up with the dog getting kicked at. Sometimes you get it right - like twice in the last 70 years and the Sox get to the World Series.

On an entirely different level of analysis - I prefer the young, potentially talented rookies - on the roster. One of the things that happened last season was this team started to get the mentality that it could win games - overcome obstacles - and achieve some form of greatness. Last year's roster was the first time in years - of my following the White Sox where the team was pulling together - instead of being a bunch of hopeless cast offs -playing for their own stats and the next gig. Sadly - I saw Yomer Sanchez as being in the middle of all that - so sorry to see him go.

 

[Jiddy]

You were saying.........

 

[Jiddy]

@Jiddy

Make some room for those White Sox fans - by whatever perversion of intellect or heart - who like the cycle of White Sox life. Start off hoping everything will click and the Sox win the championship - Then think - just stay close to 500 hundred baseball and get hot (like the Sox did in 83) - the next stage is all about hoping just to get to 500 on the season - the last stage ends up with the dog getting kicked at. Sometimes you get it right - like twice in the last 70 years and the Sox get to the World Series.

On an entirely different level of analysis - I prefer the young, potentially talented rookies - on the roster. One of the things that happened last season was this team started to get the mentality that it could win games - overcome obstacles - and achieve some form of greatness. Last year's roster was the first time in years - of my following the White Sox where the team was pulling together - instead of being a bunch of hopeless cast offs -playing for their own stats and the next gig. Sadly - I saw Yomer Sanchez as being in the middle of all that - so sorry to see him go.

2/70 is still better than Adam Dunn's batting average. So I guess we've got that going for us.


For sure, that youthful energy can go light speed and really carry a team's momentum...


...in both directions...with the not so kind one being the more likely.

Don't kick the dog. We love poochy.

 

[idseer]

Yes he does. Madrigal isn't some surprise mid-late round gem who has pleasantly snuck thru the system. He was the 4th pick in the '18 draft. We should have high expectations from him, not simply count on a Yolmeresque performance in his Sox career. Anything less than a high OBP and GG-caliber defense will have meant that he wasn't worth the super high selection.

interesting. NOW you're only interested in obp and a gold glove. i have nothing against this expectation. it's ALL that i expected. my remarks dealt with your sudden expectation of power! you had no right to expect that. you're trying (unsurprisingly) to twist what i said and meant. not falling for that shit.

the comment about yolmer was incidentally. if madrigal didn't exist we'd be fine with sanchez at 2nd.