Golf's Big 4...

[ATL96Steeler]

Media hype or Does this have merit?

Spieth, McILRoy, Day, and Fowler closed out the 2015 golf season as the hottest players on the planet...maybe not Rory so much , but he's still very much in his prime. In terms of stateside and worldwide...all are very marketable guys and seem to be very driven at the moment.

Bubba is only another Masters away from people making claim to a big 5, but imo Bubba doesn't have the drive to be the #1 Player, etc.

DJ...still needs to figure out out to close. Stenson, Kaymer, Rose are all serious contenders, but appear to be on that second tier right now.

I think the big 4 does have some merit...but I do question whether Fowler's game has peaked or not.

 

[Ricky Roma]

Kaymer's resume is better than all of them except Rory, and he's only 30. A former world #1, Two majors, a Players champ, a Ryder Cup hero, etc. etc. I get it...he's about as marketable as a dial tone, but he's as driven as any of those guys and has the credentials to back it up.

Fowler certainly is more marketable, has more fans, et al....but he's gotta put down more results on the big tracks than just a Players champion IMO.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Kaymer's resume is better than all of them except Rory, and he's only 30. A former world #1, Two majors, a Players champ, a Ryder Cup hero, etc. etc. I get it...he's about as marketable as a dial tone, but he's as driven as any of those guys and has the credentials to back it up.

Fowler certainly is more marketable, has more fans, et al....but he's gotta put down more results on the big tracks than just a Players champion IMO.

Kaymer has certainly rediscovered himself after floundering for a few years after failing to convert his fade to a draw to win at Augusta...(I wonder why tour players do that) yes, his career does over take all but Rory...Spieth is right there after winning the Fedex Cup playoff...which imo trumps a Players....I might be unique in this regard, but I don't weigh team golf accomplishments the same as others.

But...Kaymer doesn't play here enough to be in that group, if he did, they would find a way to make him more marketable.

Fowler...agree 100%...it's more about commercial appeal...he needs more hardware to really be in that circle, but he has stepped his game up...as I mentioned...I do wonder if he has maxed out.

 

[Ricky Roma]

Kaymer has certainly rediscovered himself after floundering for a few years after failing to convert his fade to a draw to win at Augusta...(I wonder why tour players do that) yes, his career does over take all but Rory...Spieth is right there after winning the Fedex Cup playoff...which imo trumps a Players....I might be unique in this regard, but I don't weigh team golf accomplishments the same as others.

But...Kaymer doesn't play here enough to be in that group, if he did, they would find a way to make him more marketable.

Fowler...agree 100%...it's more about commercial appeal...he needs more hardware to really be in that circle, but he has stepped his game up...as I mentioned...I do wonder if he has maxed out.

Just a few points. Kaymer added the shot, and not replaced it (fade/draw) which he felt he had to do to be a more complete player (and contend at Augusta). I think you can say it speaks to his dedication to win.

I think if you polled most players, they would take The Players over the Fed Ex....well...the players who are playing for trophies and not simply their bank account. It is the 5th Major for many of them.

I don't really regard the 'team' aspect, but Kaymer's clincher in 2012 certainly looks good on a resume. I think the Ryder Cup holds a lot of meaning - especially if you've been great in it - see Poulter, Ian.

I do agree that Kaymer doesn't play in America enough, and will play less next year, but the guys personality is that of a flatliner....it wouldn't matter if he was as American as it comes....he really isn't that marketable.

I like Fowler - he's good for the sport - and I don't think he's reached his peak yet.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Just a few points. Kaymer added the shot, and not replaced it (fade/draw) which he felt he had to do to be a more complete player (and contend at Augusta). I think you can say it speaks to his dedication to win.

I think if you polled most players, they would take The Players over the Fed Ex....well...the players who are playing for trophies and not simply their bank account. It is the 5th Major for many of them.

I don't really regard the 'team' aspect, but Kaymer's clincher in 2012 certainly looks good on a resume. I think the Ryder Cup holds a lot of meaning - especially if you've been great in it - see Poulter, Ian.

I do agree that Kaymer doesn't play in America enough, and will play less next year, but the guys personality is that of a flatliner....it wouldn't matter if he was as American as it comes....he really isn't that marketable.

I like Fowler - he's good for the sport - and I don't think he's reached his peak yet.

Kaymer...to put a cap on him...I like the guy, but he never did perfect the right the left shot imo and really climbed back to his greatness when he abandoned that effort and returned to his trusted fade. On credentials, yes he is among the top players in the world...could easily be one of those Big 4.

RC/PC...I know this is a me issue. I really enjoy the drama, and entertainment value of those events, and I know the players cherish those memories...when they win...obviously they're big money events now and it gives us something to cheer about, but they will always have wear the exhibition label to me...again, I don't expect anyone else to feel that way about it.

Players...agreed, the players want their "own" major so they will never say anything negative about it publicly...my point is the FedEx Cup is gaining among the players. I think we know there are 4 trophies in golf that really matter...the rest are about the check and the exemption.

 

[Ricky Roma]

I think Day also has to put some more big time trophies on his mantle. Perhaps the PGA puts him over, and he can rack a few more big titles. The injuries with him are a concern. He's another guy I can root for, although for some reason, his 'new found length' off the tee is troubling. He's always been considered a bomber, but he's now in DJ/Bubba territory. That doesn't seem right.

 

[R.J. MacReady]

I think Day also has to put some more big time trophies on his mantle. Perhaps the PGA puts him over, and he can rack a few more big titles. The injuries with him are a concern. He's another guy I can root for, although for some reason, his 'new found length' off the tee is troubling. He's always been considered a bomber, but he's now in DJ/Bubba territory. That doesn't seem right.

So don't be shy ..come on out and say what you have to say.
Then lay out your case.

Days average drive this year was 313 ..his best ever. But in 2012 it was 308
Is 5 yards really "new found length"?

 

[Ricky Roma]

So don't be shy ..come on out and say what you have to say.
Then lay out your case.

Days average drive this year was 313 ..his best ever. But in 2012 it was 308
Is 5 yards really "new found length"?

Those stats are misleading. Dustin Johnson's average drive this year was 318 yards. Last year he was averaging 311 and the year before, he averaged 307. In the same timeframe, Bubba Watson was 315/314/304. Again, Jason Day has always been considered a power player, but I don't think he was ever really considered in Johnson/Watson territory.

A lot of his drives during his run have been absolutely titanic, and I don't think I've really ever seen that from him before. It wouldn't surprise me if PED's are involved.

 

[R.J. MacReady]

Those stats are misleading. Dustin Johnson's average drive this year was 318 yards. Last year he was averaging 311 and the year before, he averaged 307. In the same timeframe, Bubba Watson was 315/314/304. Again, Jason Day has always been considered a power player, but I don't think he was ever really considered in Johnson/Watson territory.

A lot of his drives during his run have been absolutely titanic, and I don't think I've really ever seen that from him before. It wouldn't surprise me if PED's are involved.

1) Why are the drive stats that I posted for Day misleading?

2) You have shown that drive averages can change from year to year. How does that help your claim?

3) Where are the Jason day stats (compared to other golfer stats) that warrant PED suspicion?

4) Do you want to admit now that this PED claim is really about Jason day becoming more famous them your boy
Kaymer?

Yea. it's unfair that Kaymer is not getting anywhere near the fame relative to his accomplishments. But to drop a PED claim on Day for it?

Show us some proof or it's very transparent what your motives are.

 

[Ricky Roma]

Show us some proof or it's very transparent what your motives are.

Yes....so transparent that I have it in for Day, when I stated this about him:

He's another guy I can root for

If you can't see how those driving stats are misleading, especially when I gave even more varying numbers in regards to other players, then there is no point to continue this discussion.

 

[R.J. MacReady]

Yes....so transparent that I have it in for Day, when I stated this about him:



If you can't see how those driving stats are misleading, especially when I gave even more varying numbers in regards to other players, then there is no point to continue this discussion.

Is is not telling the one guy you claim to be using PED's is the same guy who stats you refuse to post to prove your point. That has to be a first here on the Hoop.

I'll take your "No point to continue this discussion" as your white flag.

 

[Ricky Roma]

Is is not telling the one guy you claim to be using PED's is the same guy who stats you refuse to post to prove your point. That has to be a first here on the Hoop.

I'll take your "No point to continue this discussion" as your white flag.

Uuhh there is no white flag. There is nothing 'telling.' The discussion is about 'the big 4.' Not the entire PGA circuit. Your stat was discredited fully simply due to the varying numbers from year to year by other players. It is irrelevant. Your claim that I'm only bashing Day because he's become more famous than Martin Kaymer was also discredited with my own words.

I am simply going by what history has shown (Day never being considered as an upper-tiered guy like Bubba Watson/Dustin Johnson when it came to pure power) to what he has been doing in the last couple of months driving the ball. The fact that he's now pulverizing the ball like those guys, coupled with his injuries (which can be caused by an abuse of steroids and also used as a quick healer from injuries) has led me to believe he could be using...of which I couldn't care less if he was or not.

It's troubling for Day because injuries may be a norm.

 

[R.J. MacReady]

Uuhh there is no white flag. There is nothing 'telling.' The discussion is about 'the big 4.' Not the entire PGA circuit. Your stat was discredited fully simply due to the varying numbers from year to year by other players. It is irrelevant. Your claim that I'm only bashing Day because he's become more famous than Martin Kaymer was also discredited with my own words.

I am simply going by what history has shown (Day never being considered as an upper-tiered guy like Bubba Watson/Dustin Johnson when it came to pure power) to what he has been doing in the last couple of months driving the ball. The fact that he's now pulverizing the ball like those guys, coupled with his injuries (which can be caused by an abuse of steroids and also used as a quick healer from injuries) has led me to believe he could be using...of which I couldn't care less if he was or not.

It's troubling for Day because injuries may be a norm.

Well I guess if you didn't care if he was using or not ..it seems pretty odd you would take the time to post about it.

Day was clearly a big hitter since he joined the tour but he has yet to have a higher average than Johnson or Watson. And by the way, who the hell says they are rooting for so and so ..and then claim they are using steroids?

 

[Ricky Roma]

Well I guess if you didn't care if he was using or not ..it seems pretty odd you would take the time to post about it.

Day was clearly a big hitter since he joined the tour but he has yet to have a higher average than Johnson or Watson. And by the way, who the hell says they are rooting for so and so ..and then claim they are using steroids?

I didn't definitively state outright that he's on some sort of PED. It's definitely a possibility, given certain factors. And I really don't care about the whole steroid/PED issue when it comes to sports. It's more of a media/political issue that has pushed the topic into the underground, making them evil and such. Under certain guidelines, they should be legal and accepted in sports.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I didn't definitively state outright that he's on some sort of PED. It's definitely a possibility, given certain factors. And I really don't care about the whole steroid/PED issue when it comes to sports. It's more of a media/political issue that has pushed the topic into the underground, making them evil and such. Under certain guidelines, they should be legal and accepted in sports.

I don't care much about PED enhancement in sports either...(if Lance had just come out much earlier...with his cancer story, he'd still be an American sports superstar imo)...but...if records have any meaning you need to have somewhat a level playing field from one era to the next. Not real knowledgeable on this topic, but HGH is one I am aware that should be allowed.

Day...hey, not so much the extra yardage...he looks bigger...through the arms and chest. I assume he's working out and bulking up a bit and that's the end of it...Bubba and DJ are tall guys with big swing arcs...guys like Rory and Day within 5 yds of them on avg....they might be following the same path as Tiger...wringing every oz of power from every swing...over time...injuries.

 

[Ricky Roma]

I don't care much about PED enhancement in sports either...(if Lance had just come out much earlier...with his cancer story, he'd still be an American sports superstar imo)...but...if records have any meaning you need to have somewhat a level playing field from one era to the next. Not real knowledgeable on this topic, but HGH is one I am aware that should be allowed.

I agree when it comes to records and eras, but if anything, it just should be noted whenever discussed. NFL QB's in the 1970's weren't going for 5000 yards/40+ TD's as they are today. That's on the rules. NHL goalies with their enormous pads to post idiotic-low goals against/saves per goal stats and whatnot. The list goes on and on. One thing about the PED usage...it's not like it's a guy here or there. There are TONS of em, in fact...I'd say most are taking something, so it's all relative. That Lance Armstrong dominated as he did, in a sport clearly identified as a drug-fueled sport, stands as it does for myself - an incredible achievement.

Day...hey, not so much the extra yardage...he looks bigger...through the arms and chest. I assume he's working out and bulking up a bit and that's the end of it...Bubba and DJ are tall guys with big swing arcs...guys like Rory and Day within 5 yds of them on avg....they might be following the same path as Tiger...wringing every oz of power from every swing...over time...injuries.

For his own sake, I hope Day doesn't get too big for his own good. He was always long enough (which started this whole discussion when he entered into DJ/Bubba territory off of the tee) but the important thing for himself and his fans is that he remains healthy enough to compete in the biggest tournaments. His participation makes any weekend more worthwhile as far as my interest is concerned.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I agree when it comes to records and eras, but if anything, it just should be noted whenever discussed. NFL QB's in the 1970's weren't going for 5000 yards/40+ TD's as they are today. That's on the rules. NHL goalies with their enormous pads to post idiotic-low goals against/saves per goal stats and whatnot. The list goes on and on. One thing about the PED usage...it's not like it's a guy here or there. There are TONS of em, in fact...I'd say most are taking something, so it's all relative. That Lance Armstrong dominated as he did, in a sport clearly identified as a drug-fueled sport, stands as it does for myself - an incredible achievement.



For his own sake, I hope Day doesn't get too big for his own good. He was always long enough (which started this whole discussion when he entered into DJ/Bubba territory off of the tee) but the important thing for himself and his fans is that he remains healthy enough to compete in the biggest tournaments. His participation makes any weekend more worthwhile as far as my interest is concerned.

The names have changed, greenies, uppers, etc. but MLB players have been taking some type of PED going way back into the 50s/60s and likely before...different media era...that stuff stayed in the clubhouse...in the steroid era...the league had no testing policy for steroids and they watched players like Brady Anderson...career high mid 20s in homers go for 50.

Instead of taking the hit for the sport and saying we blew it, we had no testing policy in place and we've discovered we have league wide issues with steroids. We're going to clean it up, blah, blah, blah...they chose to throw the players under the bus...I've never quite made it back to MLB.

Day...yeah...he and Rory have bulked up...tour golf is in a good place...it was nice to have Goliath and seeing records broken etc...but in this era...majors are wide open...some guys that are still trying to capture one like Fowler and DJ, but I would not be surprised at all to see a Brooks Koepka win one next year.

 

[Ricky Roma]

The names have changed, greenies, uppers, etc. but MLB players have been taking some type of PED going way back into the 50s/60s and likely before...different media era...that stuff stayed in the clubhouse...in the steroid era...the league had no testing policy for steroids and they watched players like Brady Anderson...career high mid 20s in homers go for 50.

Instead of taking the hit for the sport and saying we blew it, we had no testing policy in place and we've discovered we have league wide issues with steroids. We're going to clean it up, blah, blah, blah...they chose to throw the players under the bus...I've never quite made it back to MLB.

Day...yeah...he and Rory have bulked up...tour golf is in a good place...it was nice to have Goliath and seeing records broken etc...but in this era...majors are wide open...some guys that are still trying to capture one like Fowler and DJ, but I would not be surprised at all to see a Brooks Koepka win one next year.

I remember watching Jose Canseco back in the 80's and suspecting something - even before Thomas Boswell made accusations of steroid use. That was when he really wasn't the monster he turned himself into during the 90's (he was much bigger after he was originally done with the A's) The dude was just doing things I've never seen before. I also remember around the same time when Ben Johnson destroyed everybody in the 100m at the 1988 Olympics, and after the shock of his easy victory, I felt the same thing - that wasn't natural. I knew football players were always doing something ever since I watched the game. Point is, it all became so second nature, I just didn't care. No sport was clean.

What finished me off of baseball/hockey/basketball were the strikes and lockouts that cancelled their respective finals. I'm almost done with football, and if they ever cancelled the SB, it's a wrap.

As for the majors, someone like Koepka is sneaking up the world rankings so he really wouldn't be surprising. DJ....he obviously has all the tools, but he comes off as a guy that has to win one before I believe he can win one. A lot of legit chances to win have gone by, but I'd like to see him close the deal. Same thing with Sergio Garcia.

One thing for certain - I really don't want to see them contending till the end, and then implode. Those narratives get tiring.

 

[redseat]

Until DJ can close it out he can not be in the consideration for Top 5.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I remember watching Jose Canseco back in the 80's and suspecting something - even before Thomas Boswell made accusations of steroid use. That was when he really wasn't the monster he turned himself into during the 90's (he was much bigger after he was originally done with the A's) The dude was just doing things I've never seen before. I also remember around the same time when Ben Johnson destroyed everybody in the 100m at the 1988 Olympics, and after the shock of his easy victory, I felt the same thing - that wasn't natural. I knew football players were always doing something ever since I watched the game. Point is, it all became so second nature, I just didn't care. No sport was clean.

What finished me off of baseball/hockey/basketball were the strikes and lockouts that cancelled their respective finals. I'm almost done with football, and if they ever cancelled the SB, it's a wrap.

As for the majors, someone like Koepka is sneaking up the world rankings so he really wouldn't be surprising. DJ....he obviously has all the tools, but he comes off as a guy that has to win one before I believe he can win one. A lot of legit chances to win have gone by, but I'd like to see him close the deal. Same thing with Sergio Garcia.

One thing for certain - I really don't want to see them contending till the end, and then implode. Those narratives get tiring.

In sports where the entire measurement is how fast, how strong etc...PEDs have always been a stain I guess, but the money in sports has simply grown too much to resist the temptation...NFL guys know they are cutting some period of time off the normal life span...certainly in terms of body function later in life. MLB players getting popped today face stiff penalties, but many are willing to sacrifice 1 yr to get 5 or 6 @ $10 mil per.

Golf...I mentioned names, but my point is not really player specific, noting the depth...of the guys that make the cut the pool of legit contenders was probably 10 deep in Jack's era...today, it might be 25+.