GOAT?

[tlance]

Shaq goes off for whatever number he wants.
The Lakers get into the bonus by the 3 minute mark each quarter because they simply have to foul Shaq every single time he touches the ball.

Kobe, Fox, Horry are all world class defenders who can defend perimeter players. Horry is a criminally underrated defender whose elite defense is almost overshadowed by his famous 3 point shots.
Shaq doesnt need to play D. And when Shaq needs a rest, Kobe can carry the offensive load.

The Ws really only have one weakness.
They have zero answer for a dominant physically imposing low post big man.
Luckily they never really faced one. The closest call was the relatively decent 2016 OKC Big men duo.

These Ws are better than Jordans Bulls.
Those Bulls were a perimeter oriented team without a low post guy to exploit the Ws only weakness.
Jordan would NOT be 6-0 if he played this Warriors team.

I agree with you on the Bulls.

I don't agree on the Lakers, simply because They would put Shaq in pick and roll every time and wear his ass out defensively. It isn't so simple as saying he scores whenever he wants.

Also, you know who guarded Shaq 1 on 1 better than any defender I have seen? Dennis Rodman. Dray couldn't guard him for the entire game, but in stretches, I think he could frustrate Shaq just like Rodman did.

Now the Spurs? Those bigs could defend the perimeter. Much tougher matchup for the Warriors, IMO.

 

[Great Dayne]

This is a really good post.

Definitely too early to discuss the Warriors among the best dynasties. But they have earned the right to be in the greatest single season team category.

Thanks, it's the best way that we can possibly compare these "super teams" from different eras. It will be interesting to see how this off season unfolds with KD and Steph's contracts up this year. I believe they will attempt to stay together for another 5 years at least to become not just a one year wonder but one of the all time best.

 

[flyerhawk]

The Ws really only have one weakness.
They have zero answer for a dominant physically imposing low post big man.
Luckily they never really faced one. The closest call was the relatively decent 2016 OKC Big men duo.
.

So the question I have is, where did all the big men go?

The talent is pool is bigger than ever before but there are almost no traditional low post big men in the league. The dominant centers of today are ALL tall and athletic and designed to play in space when needed.

Now there are 3 possibilities.

1. There simply aren't any big monster low post guys.
2. The rules punish the big low post guys.
3. Team emphasize transition defense more now which hurts slower lumerbing big men.

 

[flyerhawk]

Also, you know who guarded Shaq 1 on 1 better than any defender I have seen? Dennis Rodman. Dray couldn't guard him for the entire game, but in stretches, I think he could frustrate Shaq just like Rodman did.

Green would get a lot of help now that defenses can play zone defenses.

 

[tlance]

So the question I have is, where did all the big men go?

The talent is pool is bigger than ever before but there are almost no traditional low post big men in the league. The dominant centers of today are ALL tall and athletic and designed to play in space when needed.

Now there are 3 possibilities.

1. There simply aren't any big monster low post guys.
2. The rules punish the big low post guys.
3. Team emphasize transition defense more now which hurts slower lumerbing big men.

All the above, but mostly 2 and 3.

2 and 3 are the reasons that we don't have any dominate post players anymore. There is no reason to develop a traditional post in today's game. We are in a guard dominated world.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Yeah and also 69-67 FINAL scores in playoffs games. No thanks.

I"d take that over what's going on now... I like defense whether it's football or basketball, it's boring seeing teams score easily, defense is suppose to be 50 percent of the game... without defense you have no game

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

I don't think the Pistons back in the day would stand much of a chance against this team.

Not with the current rules, but with the old school physical B-ball rules... Remember, Detroit had 3 guards that could shoot outside or drive to the basket, and they had physical play inside... They were a great defensive team..

 

[Heatles84]

Not with the current rules, but with the old school physical B-ball rules... Remember, Detroit had 3 guards that could shoot outside or drive to the basket, and they had physical play inside... They were a great defensive team..

Players are faster and stronger than they were in the 80's. This is an argument that I don't try to bring up when people mention "X player couldn't play in the 80's because of physicality". Golden St. has players on their end that can thug it up in Draymond, McGee, Barnes, West, etc...

It's almost laughable when people bringing up Lebron not being able to play in the 80's. Guy's built like an oversized NFL TE (6'8 250-260 lbs.).

The Pistons would not have come close to beating this Warriors team.

 

[DorianRo]

Did someone say Jordan was mortal? Not really. Not on a ball court. Jordan is the EPITOME of basketball excellence. What guys like Lebron/Kobe lacked. Jordan had.

As mentioned, Warriors would NOT beat MJ's bulls. (Maybe the 1998 one where Pippen was a practical invalid though who knows). Look at this way, Look at the amount of Turnovers the Cavs caused the Warriors... And look at how BAD their defense was all year. Now look at the Bulls' defense. Multiple the amount of turnovers the Warriors had against the Cavs by 10 and you have what the Bulls defense would have done to them.

Also, MJ's championships Bulls would NEVER get in a 0-3, 1-3 hole.


KD is always gonna get his of course, but Curry, Thompson would be made COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT getting D' up by Pippen, Harper, MJ, and Phil's brilliant coaching and strategic adapting.

KD is a great player, but he sure as well isn't gonna beat the Bulls by himself.

And Bull's bench is just as good as Golden's State's is.

And Rodman would have Green T'd up in 20 second intervals driving him nuts

 

[Wamu]

How do the Bulls match up well?

PG: Harper vs. Curry: curry in a landslide
SG: Jordan vs Klay: Jordan in a landslide, about as much an advantage as PG for Dubs
SF: Pippen GS KD: edge KD. Pippen is 4 inches shorter. As great as he was, he isn't bothering KD's shot.
PF: Rodman vs.. Green: edge Green. He plays offense. Rodman doesn't.
C: center was a weakness for both, but Longley would be a liability against Warrior pick and roll. They would have to go small. John Salley is really the only one that might have a chance. But, since none of their centers were scoring threats, they are really just liabilities.

Bench:
Kukoc vs. Iggy: advantage Iggy. He is the more versatile player
Livingston vs: Kerr: both are role players with differing skill sets neither makes a huge impact.

Sorry, but nobody is beating the Warriors without dominate interior play. The Bulls were great, but they match up pretty poorly with the Warriors. There is only one advantage, and MJ was in act mortal.

It would have been interesting to see Rodman play against Green. I think Rodman would fuck w/ him so bad he'd pick up 2 T's before the end of the 1st half.

 

[Heatles84]

Did someone say Jordan was mortal? Not really. Not on a ball court. Jordan is the EPITOME of basketball excellence. What guys like Lebron/Kobe lacked. Jordan had.

As mentioned, Warriors would NOT beat MJ's bulls. (Maybe the 1998 one where Pippen was a practical invalid though who knows). Look at this way, Look at the amount of Turnovers the Cavs caused the Warriors... And look at how BAD their defense was all year. Now look at the Bulls' defense. Multiple the amount of turnovers the Warriors had against the Cavs by 10 and you have what the Bulls defense would have done to them.

Also, MJ's championships Bulls would NEVER get in a 0-3, 1-3 hole.


KD is always gonna get his of course, but Curry, Thompson would be made COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT getting D' up by Pippen, Harper, MJ, and Phil's brilliant coaching and strategic adapting.

KD is a great player, but he sure as well isn't gonna beat the Bulls by himself.

And Bull's bench is just as good as Golden's State's is.

And Rodman would have Green T'd up in 20 second intervals driving him nuts

Given your reputation on this forum, you know no one's going to read this.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Players are faster and stronger than they were in the 80's. This is an argument that I don't try to bring up when people mention "X player couldn't play in the 80's because of physicality". Golden St. has players on their end that can thug it up in Draymond, McGee, Barnes, West, etc...

It's almost laughable when people bringing up Lebron not being able to play in the 80's. Guy's built like an oversized NFL TE (6'8 250-260 lbs.).

The Pistons would not have come close to beating this Warriors team.

Dude is was the late 80's almost the 90's were talking about, not the 40's or 50's ... 100 percent I disagree with you ... NBA had big bodies all over the place in the late 80's early 90's... Sports nutrition was around then bro.. And no one said Lebron couldn't play in the 80's, of course he could, but he wouldn't get away with always pushing his way to the basket, because back in the day big men could hold there ground, and the NBA had plenty of big guy's back then to hold there ground...

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Exactly right. Steph had a lot of trouble in the Finals last year because he was simply getting bumped off screen. Imagine the Warriors playing a series where it was perfectly legal to not only bump you, but to literally put a hand on you and ride you. Imagine Steph going to the rim, and getting knocked flat on his ass by someone 6'9'', 260, and only getting a foul out of it, not an F1 or F2. Teams would have no trouble defending the Warriors under those rules, put a hand on them at the three point line, play them tight, when they drive, make them pay. Now, play the game by today's rules....much better for the Warriors, but insert any great team, not just the Bulls, but the Showtime Lakers, the Celtics, etc...Guarding Magic or KAJ without a hand on them or an elbow in their back, it would be a layup drill. Same with Bird-McHale, Bird was a better player than KD, and no one on the Warriors could guard McHale under any rules format, but under today's rules? it's a joke.
I'm not a Warriors hater, they are a great team, what I do hate is the NFL and NBA taking defense out of the equation, turning the NFL into 7 on 7 and proclaiming Brady the GOAT and calling a finesse team like the Warriors the GOAT when they can only play one style

Yep, and I don't blame the players of course, they're just adjusting to the way the dam league is calling the games now day's ... It's frustrating to watch, I swear to god there is a foul every minute, you can't even enjoy the flow of a good game... And watching guy's drive to the basket players have to back up and get out of there way while they poke at the ball, it's an auto foul if you get physical in anyway .... I don't understand why these leagues want all offense, I don't get it, defense is 50 percent of sports, without it you don't have a sport...

 

[Heatles84]

Dude is was the late 80's almost the 90's were talking about, not the 40's or 50's ... 100 percent I disagree with you ... NBA had big bodies all over the place in the late 80's early 90's... Sports nutrition was around then bro.. And no one said Lebron couldn't play in the 80's, of course he could, but he wouldn't get away with always pushing his way to the basket, because back in the day big men could hold there ground, and the NBA had plenty of big guy's back then to hold there ground...

Training has evolved even since then. You might want to do research on the matter. HIT wasn't as big as it is now, or at least it wasn't as much in the 90's. Take a look at NFL teams in the 90's, particularly in the Super Bowl with Denver and Green Bay. Fast forward to the most recent trends and you'll see a staggering trend in physical appearance along with strength combined with speed.

Having said that, just because the Pistons were a notoriously dirty team, doesn't mean they were going to beat the Warriors. The Pistons had a bit of luck to their titles given that Magic pulled his hamstring first game of the series allowing the Pistons to sweep the Lakers. Also, the Celtics, particularly Bird got old allowing them to take over in the East while Jordan was just a baby in NBA years. You need to stop holding the Pistons to this stature like they're same all-time great team - they weren't.

 

[tlance]

Training has evolved even since then. You might want to do research on the matter. HIT wasn't as big as it is now, or at least it wasn't as much in the 90's. Take a look at NFL teams in the 90's, particularly in the Super Bowl with Denver and Green Bay. Fast forward to the most recent trends and you'll see a staggering trend in physical appearance along with strength combined with speed.

Having said that, just because the Pistons were a notoriously dirty team, doesn't mean they were going to beat the Warriors. The Pistons had a bit of luck to their titles given that Magic pulled his hamstring first game of the series allowing the Pistons to sweep the Lakers. Also, the Celtics, particularly Bird got old allowing them to take over in the East while Jordan was just a baby in NBA years. You need to stop holding the Pistons to this stature like they're same all-time great team - they weren't.

Jordan did not start lifting weights until the 90s. Most players in the 80s never did. Players today not only strength train, but they are being trained by people with advanced degrees that specialize in preparing the human body to play basketball at a higher level.

Seriously. It is night and day if you look at physique from players in the 80s compared to today. The eye test doesn't lie either. You don't see any players elevating as effortlessly as top players today. Athletes just look more fluid.

 

[DorianRo]

Lebron could play in the 80s but he wouldn't of enjoyed it thats for sure.. With the defender allowing to hand check, Elbow you, body you up and play physical.

If there is an EASIER time for any perimeter player than now, I would like to know when it was.

Jordan would average somewhere between 40-45ppg in this era every season. His FTA would go way up, and he would get more easy buckets. He averaged 37ppg in the physical late 80s men's game where hand checking and defensive physicality was allowed (Unlike today)

 

[Heatles84]

Jordan did not start lifting weights until the 90s. Most players in the 80s never did. Players today not only strength train, but they are being trained by people with advanced degrees that specialize in preparing the human body to play basketball at a higher level.

Seriously. It is night and day if you look at physique from players in the 80s compared to today. The eye test doesn't lie either. You don't see any players elevating as effortlessly as top players today. Athletes just look more fluid.

Agreed. Given this information, if you put present day Lebron in the 80's NBA (same physique and training regimen), he'd probably run rough shot through the NBA. Makes you re-evaluate things.

 

[Heatles84]

Lebron could play in the 80s but he wouldn't of enjoyed it thats for sure.. With the defender allowing to hand check, Elbow you, body you up.

If there is an EASIER time for any perimeter player than now, I would like to know when it was.

Jordan would average somewhere between 40-45ppg in this era every season. His FTA would go way up, and he would get more easy buckets. He averaged 37ppg in the physical late 80s men's game

Jordan also ball hogged until Phil came along. Who's going to body up Lebron? If players are allowed to elbow Lebron, I'm assuming he's allowed to elbow them back. How's that going to work out in the long run.

Once again, if you have me defending Lebron, you're presenting a shit argument.

 

[DorianRo]

Jordan also ball hogged until Phil came along. Who's going to body up Lebron? If players are allowed to elbow Lebron, I'm assuming he's allowed to elbow them back. How's that going to work out in the long run.

Once again, if you have me defending Lebron, you're presenting a shit argument.

Lebron doesn't like physicality from the defender last as we have hundreds of instances both videos and photos to present this don't we?

Jordan still averaged over 30 a game after Phil came along. EVERYTHING for Jordan goes up in this era

1. More FTA (leading to 7-10 more points a game)
2. More Spacing so he can ISO and do what he wants
3. No Centers of BIGs allowing to play physical and beat him up when he goes inside.

 

[Heatles84]

Lebron doesn't like physicality from the defender last as we have hundreds of instances both videos and photos to present this don't we?

Jordan still averaged over 30 a game after Phil came along. EVERYTHING for Jordan goes up in this era

1. More FTA (leading to 7-10 more points a game)
2. More Spacing so he can ISO and do what he wants
3. No Centers of BIGs allowing to play physical and beat him up when he goes inside.

And Lebron's never considered himself a scorer. He's always been compared to Magic as opposed to MJ.

Lebron doesn't care too much for phyiscality in what way? When he flops? You do realize that he's selling calls, don't you.

If he were playing street rules basketball, I'm sure he'd adjust to the game and be more physical. Last thing I'd want to do is play the physicality game with someone Lebron's size.