GDT - San Jose at Anaheim - Jan 9, 5:00PM

[Cmon_WTF]

honestly, it's impossible to know barring a trade to a non-stacked team. You might be right that on a lesser team, he wouldnt have the production. That's likely true for just about anyone not named Joe Thornton.

However, Don't forget that pavs is young, relatively speaking. he's 26, and in just his 4th full NHL season. He's no baby rookie anymore, that's for sure, but he's also not 29 and in his prime. Patty is not a bad player, and any team would be happy to have him, just perhaps not for 6.9M, ranking him as the 18th highest paid player in the entire league. He's been worth that kind of money once or twice in his career (last year he was worth it particularly vs. chicago, and maybe 06-07 and possibly 05-6, but that's pushing it). He's only had one 40 goal season in his entire career (last year), so he's hardly an elite player and he's only performed up that kind of salary a couple times in his 13 years career and he's had a lot of disaster years like 07-08 and this year where he's not worth 4 million.

If pavs got 7M, he'd be a horrible investment and I'd clamor to get rid of him. However, the salary difference and cap hit difference means that they have to be judged on different scales.

Simply put, patty has never been anywhere near as dominant and jumbo or heater throughout his career, yet earns nearly the same salary (within 600k of each).

The real test will be to see what happens when pavs gets healthy. if he comes back and they continue to get shut out regularly, then that answers the question. If he comes back and ignites the offense, then there yah go. We'll see...

Braun was called up today, that is by far the biggest step in curing the Sharks scoring wooes.

 

[rares]

The real test will be to see what happens when pavs gets healthy. if he comes back and they continue to get shut out regularly, then that answers the question. If he comes back and ignites the offense, then there yah go. We'll see...

Well, with how shitty and inconsistent the offense has been thus far, whenever your hero comes back, they have nowhere to go (offensively) BUT up... so, yes, you'll conveniently (and incorrectly) be able to pin it all on him for being that missing catalyst.

The team is just going through a horrendous scoring slump... but it has nothing to do with Pavelski being out; stop kidding yourself, FFS.

 

[sjrules99]

Heatley has never not been paired with another elite level player.

In atlanta it was he and kovolchuk. In ottawa he and spezza. So, I don't think that argument holds water.

Same as thornton, samsonov and glenn what's his nuts lol.

I think in terms of being surrounded by talent patty and joe are close in whom they've been surrounded with throughout their careers.

Heatley has had a free ride with superstar talent his entire career. So is he really worth his contract? Not really.

All being said I'm not loyal to anyone shark anymore outside of couture

Jumbo has never been paired with a player who scored 30 goals in a season while NOT on his wing. samsonov was a nobody after Joe. Glen Murray as well never had a 30 goal year before playing with joe. Cheech never did. patty never did. notice a trend? Bill guerin had one exactly 30 goal season prior to playing with jumbo. A few guys have subsequently had 30+ goal seasons (rolston is one...) but Jumbo never had a single linemate throughout his career that was a legit established star scorer prior to being on Joe's wing.

The heater argument is true. On the pizza line he had two of the best players in the league on his line and in atlanta, kovy was pretty dominant. it's hard to say what would happen to heater if he didnt have good linemates, so you're right there.

With patty, it's true that the talent around him was less than amazing, though owen Nolan was a pretty dominant force and dampussy was pretty good as well even at the end of his career. Teemu was also no slouch either despite his struggles in SJ as well (though he did lead the team in scoring in 02-03). patty has only led the team in points once in his entire career (03-04 by only 2 pts of ekman). Even with bad linemates, if he basically doesnt ever lead the team in scoring then that linemate arguments dies...

 

[Cbrower91]

Your wrong on all accounts rules, murray was a 30 goal guy in la, samsonov put up what 24. Goals. When joe had 4pnts. Marleau and cheech where at 30goals and 28goals during the season prior to joes arrival.

 

[sjrules99]

Your wrong on all accounts rules, murray was a 30 goal guy in la, samsonov put up what 24. Goals. When joe had 4pnts. Marleau and cheech where at 30goals and 28goals during the season prior to joes arrival.

Wrong on all fronts yourself. korky, look it up...

murray had 29 goals twice actually, but never 30 before going to boston. Your right, samsonov never had 30 without joe (actually he never had 30 with Joe, though 29 twice). cheech had 28 (correct) but patty never had 30 without Joe (he also had 28 both years prior in 02-3 and 03-4). joe came mid year in 05-6) and exploded on the scene.

Jumbo virtually never played with a 30 goal scorer before being paired with him.

 

[Cbrower91]

Really 29 goals and your such a tight ass and don't want to lose an argument. You can't round that up to 30, so your saying thornton made a 1 goal difference and changed his career?

It makes you look incredibly petty and damages any merit you may have gained

 

[sjrules99]

Really 29 goals and your such a tight ass and don't want to lose an argument. You can't round that up to 30, so your saying thornton made a 1 goal difference and changed his career?

It makes you look incredibly petty and damages any merit you may have gained

I made a statement that was true. I wasnt arguing with you, just making a point. You said I was wrong, and I wasn't, that's all. Sure he's been paired with some guys who had 28 or 29 goals. Of course that's true for a guy who has played 13 years on the first line of his team. however, he has never played with a legit star who was one before being on his line. 28 or 29 goals is not a lot. Up until heater, he had never played with a guy above 30, let alone 40 goals. Patty had played with those guys and didn't excel, leading the sharks in scoring, barely, for one year. My whole point was simply that you said joe has always had great mates, and that is clearly not the case.

Joe has also never played with a player who had more than 62 points prior to being on his line. That is some pretty poor mates when you compare patty paired at times with nolan who had 73 and 77 pt seasons prior to coming to SJ, teemu with multiple over 100 pt seasons, and vinny with several 90+ pt seasons previously before coming to SJ. Those are not exactly weak linemates as you claim. Vinny was toward the end of his career but nolan and teemu were certianly not.

patty just isnt in the same league as jumbo in terms of skill and ability to take over. Heater certainly has had great linemates for quite some time, so you're right that it's hard to tell how much is him and how much is his mates.

However, since he isnt going anywhere, at least I hope he doesnt finish the worst defensive forward in the western conference and maybe, just maybe, he'll actually his 60 points for his 6.9 Million dollars. Its a sad thing if clowe or couture outproduce him...

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I made a statement that was true. I wasnt arguing with you, just making a point. You said I was wrong, and I wasn't, that's all. Sure he's been paired with some guys who had 28 or 29 goals. Of course that's true for a guy who has played 13 years on the first line of his team. however, he has never played with a legit star who was one before being on his line. 28 or 29 goals is not a lot. Up until heater, he had never played with a guy above 30, let alone 40 goals. Patty had played with those guys and didn't excel, leading the sharks in scoring, barely, for one year. My whole point was simply that you said joe has always had great mates, and that is clearly not the case.

Joe has also never played with a player who had more than 62 points prior to being on his line. That is some pretty poor mates when you compare patty paired at times with nolan who had 73 and 77 pt seasons prior to coming to SJ, teemu with multiple over 100 pt seasons, and vinny with several 90+ pt seasons previously before coming to SJ. Those are not exactly weak linemates as you claim. Vinny was toward the end of his career but nolan and teemu were certianly not.

patty just isnt in the same league as jumbo in terms of skill and ability to take over. Heater certainly has had great linemates for quite some time, so you're right that it's hard to tell how much is him and how much is his mates.

However, since he isnt going anywhere, at least I hope he doesnt finish the worst defensive forward in the western conference and maybe, just maybe, he'll actually his 60 points for his 6.9 Million dollars. Its a sad thing if clowe or couture outproduce him...

Just to clarify, Marleau's primary linemates prior to Joe were: 00/01 - Harvey and Matteau, 01/02 - Scott Thornton and Sturm, 02/03 - Sturm and Dimitrakos/Harvey, 03/04 - Sturm and Damphousse.

It's not like Marleau had a ton of talent for linemates. A mid to late 30's Damphousse who had no interest in playing the regular season was about as good as it got for him.

 

[sjrules99]

Just to clarify, Marleau's primary linemates prior to Joe were: 00/01 - Harvey and Matteau, 01/02 - Scott Thornton and Sturm, 02/03 - Sturm and Dimitrakos/Harvey, 03/04 - Sturm and Damphousse.

It's not like Marleau had a ton of talent for linemates. A mid to late 30's Damphousse who had no interest in playing the regular season was about as good as it got for him.

not totally the case. in 02-3, patty averaged over 18 mins/game while dimitrakos/harvey averaged 14 and 9 mins respectively. I do remember Sturm on the line, but I dont remember patty skating a regular shift with dimi or harvey. maybe at times, but not regularly. I am deifnitely too lazy to check, but I bet that either nolan or vinny was in on the vast majority of patty's points.

I distinctly remember marleau and teemu skating together, though admittedly, it's hard to remember 10 years ago. I have trouble believing that patty never skated a regular shit with either nolan or teemu. If you have any evidence of that or some source that shows I'm mistaken, i'd love to check it out.

by the way, I know you are incorrect regarding 01-02, because that was the year of the famous ricci-thornton-sundstrom "best 3rd line in hockey" days. patty definitely did not play that year with thornton then. Sturm yes...

 

[Cmon_WTF]

not totally the case. in 02-3, patty averaged over 18 mins/game while dimitrakos/harvey averaged 14 and 9 mins respectively. I do remember Sturm on the line, but I dont remember patty skating a regular shift with dimi or harvey. maybe at times, but not regularly. I am deifnitely too lazy to check, but I bet that either nolan or vinny was in on the vast majority of patty's points.

I distinctly remember marleau and teemu skating together, though admittedly, it's hard to remember 10 years ago. I have trouble believing that patty never skated a regular shit with either nolan or teemu. If you have any evidence of that or some source that shows I'm mistaken, i'd love to check it out.

by the way, I know you are incorrect regarding 01-02, because that was the year of the famous ricci-thornton-sundstrom "best 3rd line in hockey" days. patty definitely did not play that year with thornton then. Sturm yes...

Marleau and Nolan were never on the same line at ES. They did spend some time together on the PP. Marleau didn't skate with Selanne at all. Selanne skated exclusively with Damphousse at center.

You're one year off on the Ricci-Thornton-Sundstrom line(00/01). It was Ricci-Sundstrom-Graves for most of 01/02.

 

[sjrules99]

Marleau and Nolan were never on the same line at ES. They did spend some time together on the PP. Marleau didn't skate with Selanne at all. Selanne skated exclusively with Damphousse at center.

You're one year off on the Ricci-Thornton-Sundstrom line(00/01). It was Ricci-Sundstrom-Graves for most of 01/02.

Not according to this article:

CNNSI.com - Hockey - CNNSI.com's 2002 San Jose Sharks Team Preview - Sunday September 29, 2002 05:00 AM

its a preview of the 2002-3 sharks and talks about the ricci-thornton combo getting thornton 26 goals (his 01-02 production) and sundstrom on his other side.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Not according to this article:

CNNSI.com - Hockey - CNNSI.com's 2002 San Jose Sharks Team Preview - Sunday September 29, 2002 05:00 AM

its a preview of the 2002-3 sharks and talks about the ricci-thornton combo getting thornton 26 goals (his 01-02 production) and sundstrom on his other side.

That article also says that Selanne skated with Marleau and Sturm which is horribly inaccurate. The touted 3rd line was during the 00/01 season. 01/02 that line started together again but Graves replaced Thornton for long stretches as Sutter moved Scott up to scoring lines where he felt he needed another gritty presence besides Nolan and Graves wasn't getting the job done in that reguard.

 

[Cbrower91]

So does everyone still think Clarke McCarthur and Kaberle for PooVelski and Seto still to much?

 

[filosofy29]

So does everyone still think Clarke McCarthur and Kaberle for PooVelski and Seto still to much?

Yes. Absolutely. Kaberle is a rental, there is close to ZERO chance he resigns with the Sharks. That's a trade you make if you're really close to winning the cup.....the Sharks aren't that team. I would be very upset if DWil made that trade.

 

[Cbrower91]

Yes. Absolutely. Kaberle is a rental, there is close to ZERO chance he resigns with the Sharks. That's a trade you make if you're really close to winning the cup.....the Sharks aren't that team. I would be very upset if DWil made that trade.

For what? You know how much salary that clears up to fix the debacle that is the sharks.

Atleast this trade takes care of the immediate need on this team, and could help push this team over the top. It gives them to different attacks coming out of the backend with a guy who can make the long pass and a guy who can carry it.

It adds a point shot and a guy who can move the puck and walk the blue line. You lose a 60pnt guy in a good year and a guy who's career has stalled out.

You gain a gritty goal scorer in Mccarthur, and a guy who produces in the dirty areas which the sharks lack as well.

 

[filosofy29]

Because you are getting the wrong guys, and getting rid of the wrong guys. Pavs and Seto are relatively cheap. The Sharks problem lies with the lazy Big 3 and the money allocated to them. If all I have ro show for Pavs and Seto is Clarke MacArthur a year later, I'm going to be pissed. Kaberle was awful tonight and got used and abused by the Sharks big forwards (notably Clowe). He alsodidnt show me much on the PP.

 

[Cbrower91]

Because you are getting the wrong guys, and getting rid of the wrong guys. Pavs and Seto are relatively cheap. The Sharks problem lies with the lazy Big 3 and the money allocated to them. If all I have ro show for Pavs and Seto is Clarke MacArthur a year later, I'm going to be pissed. Kaberle was awful tonight and got used and abused by the Sharks big forwards (notably Clowe). He alsodidnt show me much on the PP.

Your going to have nothing to show if this team doesnt make the playoffs. Who is easier to move? Seto and Pavelski or perninal underachivers with huge contracts and are old?

Of the big 3 Patty will bring in the biggest bounty, for the fact he can play every part of the ice well and has speed to still skate in the game today.

In about 2 maybe 3 years, Pavelskis lack of foot speed,quickness and top end speed will be a 4th liner if he is lucky. He wont be getting any quicker as he ages.

Seto has stalled in san jose, period. It isnt a one year slump and things are not getting better. He needs a change of scenery and if he will not be any higher in trade value then he is now, unless of course he breaks through his 2 year slump.

Dwill isnt dealing from a position of power at all, as a fan you want change and the best trade possible, thats not going to happen. It's going to be a trade that we probably wont like as far as returns are concerened long term.


As for Kaberle's performace, he is the leafs version of boyle the guy is eating up minutes and is worn out, and he is dealing with lesser talent then Boyle is playing with everynight
Bottom line this team needs a change and immediate help, or the roster will get gutted next season.

 

[filosofy29]

I have zero problem with trading either Seto or Pavs. I just want more to show from trading them than Clarke MacArthur.

 

[Cbrower91]

Oh and cmon your wrong about patty not skating with selanne. Patty, korloyuk and selanne made up the short lived doghouse line

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Oh and cmon your wrong about patty not skating with selanne. Patty, korloyuk and selanne made up the short lived doghouse line

I can count on both hands, maybe even just one, how many games Marleau and Selanne skated together on a line. With injuries and the regular line adjustments coaches make everyone on the team will eventually get a few games with just about everyone else on the roster. The point was Salenne was never partnered with Marleau long enough to be considered a regular linemate and definately shouldn't be looked at as someone who positively affected his offensive output.