game stuff

[Darrell Green Fan]

well that is a way out of facing the facts that we are on par with what others are doing hence it shouldnt be a criticism, so ok, i guess

but again , if you believe those 11 pass attempts and 30 or so snaps are crucial to Rg3 future then have at it

maybe one day you and the others will come back to me and say gruden destroyed Rg3 's career because he didnt give Rg3 extra snaps vs the browns on august 13 2015 because i will laugh you and the others right off this board

sorry but you are never going to convince me that Rg3 is doomed because he didnt get enough snaps vs the browns and quite frankly its silly to even debate it

Rg3 isnt failing because he isnt getting enough snaps in year 1 , 2 or 3 attitude , injuries , film study all have a role in it

Again I do not understand why we are disagreeing here. Do you not see how this QB more than virtually any other QB in memory needs experience? Do you not agree with the coaches that Griff needs as many practice reps as possible? Again game experience is not the same as practice. You've seen practice. We've all seen practice. Wearing a yellow shirt and not being touched while throwing against defenders who are going 3/4 speed is simply not the same as game speed with real defenders going after you, even preseason game speed. Yet coaches maintain those practice reps are critical so a lot of us feel that game experience would be even more critical.

NOBODY is claiming an additional 11 snaps will turn him into Peyton Manning and nobody is claiming Griffin is "doomed" by the lack of game time. So you need to get off those points. We are simply stating that when you have a guy so raw as this guy is and you have the chance to get him game experience then why would you not take advantage of that opportunity?

 

[skinsdad62]

Again I do not understand why we are disagreeing here. Do you not see how this QB more than virtually any other QB in memory needs experience? Do you not agree with the coaches that Griff needs as many practice reps as possible? Again game experience is not the same as practice. You've seen practice. We've all seen practice. Wearing a yellow shirt and not being touched while throwing against defenders who are going 3/4 speed is simply not the same as game speed with real defenders going after you, even preseason game speed. Yet coaches maintain those practice reps are critical so a lot of us feel that game experience would be even more critical.

NOBODY is claiming an additional 11 snaps will turn him into Peyton Manning and nobody is claiming Griffin is "doomed" by the lack of game time. So you need to get off those points. We are simply stating that when you have a guy so raw as this guy is and you have the chance to get him game experience then why would you not take advantage of that opportunity?

at the risk of what ? other qbs who are raw got as many snaps as he did and they make do with that . do you cut KC's snaps to do it ? do you put him at risk for injury to do it ? if those 11 snaps arent going to significantly alter his career path why bother ? that is the whole damn issue . will those snaps make him significantly better and is the risk worth the reward

preseason snaps arent the same as regular season snaps either and that is where you are going to get real improvement

game one vs the dolphins he will be just as raw as he was before until he proves otherwise and 11 passes wont change it significantly at all

so no i am not getting off those talking points because they are the heart of the issue risk vs reward , team vs individual (s)

why give him extra snaps just to say he got extra snaps ? you will sleep better tonight because he got 11 extra passes in ? it is a foolish debate if you cant show me where the benefit is and how much doom and gloom will happen because he didnt get extra snaps vs the brown on aug 13 2015



unless you can tell me those 11 extra passes will alter his career projection ANY then why piss and moan about it ? you use the preseason games to shake rust off , work on some things and stay healthy for the regular season

i guarantee you that the week prior to week one vs the dolphins the narative will be , can RG3 become better in the pocket? ( whether he had 30 snaps vs the browns or the 18 he got ) will not be a factor at all

 

[j_y19]

Dad, it's not necessarily that 11 more snaps will magically make rg3 a superior QB. It's that he is learning to play a new way and not only does he need the reps in live situations, but the staff also needs to evaluate him in a larger sample size. Honestly, I'm baffled that you argue this point. How can more reps hurt his development or his evaluation (save injury, which I beleive if it happens, it happens). Let me ask you this, if he got 11 more attempts and he stunk the joint up, taking sacks, holding the ball, etc, wouldn't that be of value to know now?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Dad, it's not necessarily that 11 more snaps will magically make rg3 a superior QB. It's that he is learning to play a new way and not only does he need the reps in live situations, but the staff also needs to evaluate him in a larger sample size. Honestly, I'm baffled that you argue this point. How can more reps hurt his development or his evaluation (save injury, which I beleive if it happens, it happens). Let me ask you this, if he got 11 more attempts and he stunk the joint up, taking sacks, holding the ball, etc, wouldn't that be of value to know now?

As I said several times I'm totally baffled at his position as well. Not sure how it can be argued that more game experience would be beneficial.

 

[Stymietee]

i am going to address some of your points

5) how do they know that ? maybe he was humble during the interview process and got the diva attitude before getting hurt ?

1) yes , he didnt and shanny acknowledged that and developed a system they could use and contray to popular belief it wasnt all read option

7) you forget a huge issue and that was the cap penalty . the skins were counting on that to get talent and in fact shanny said he wouldnt have made the trade if the cap space wasnt there

5. Don't forget the social media expressions that he was making at the time, besides you err on the side of caution especially if you pay what was paid for him. Don't think that he didn't know that they mortgaged future high picks for his rights. Beyond that, he took first team reps immediately which meant ready or not he's the guy.

1. We agree, nothing screams "unprepared!" like Having to devise a system to get by.

7. To be sure the cap hit took a toll, but doesn't that make it even more obvious that the organization was risking return on investment by putting said investment behind an inferior supporting cast? I didn't forget, I factored it in when I made comments to the same.

SN: Shanahan's system was part of the problem as well. Remember he favored smaller, quicker OL men. This system worked as far as the running game was concerned. the problems came in the passing game where these same smaller, quicker terriers were facing bigger, stronger, Pitbulls.

 

[Stymietee]

Maybe I can help a bit here. Repetition fosters familiarity, correct? Then repetitions can be had anywhere. What game situations give you are opportunities to make adjustments in real time. Preseason games while useful don't come close to what you get in the regular season. It can be argued that Griffin has had more experience in making adjustments than nearly all other starting QB's because he has had the misfortune of playing behind camp fodder in his last 3 regular seasons.

 

[Breed]

Darrell Green Fan, post: 7033828, member: 8691
Rex: 56 TD, 60 INT
Kirk: 18 TD, 19 INTs

Since going 20 TDs/5 INTs his rookie season. Griffin's thrown 20 TDs , 18 INTs. Not a whole difference there to me taking away Griff's rookie season.

Far as Stymieetee's "what if" question. I'm of the same mind as you. I'd start him day one, but insist that he protect himself when running. Unfortunately Griffin's ego is such that regardless of what would've happened. Any type of success likely leads Griffin to believe that he's bigger than the team.

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad, it's not necessarily that 11 more snaps will magically make rg3 a superior QB. It's that he is learning to play a new way and not only does he need the reps in live situations, but the staff also needs to evaluate him in a larger sample size. Honestly, I'm baffled that you argue this point. How can more reps hurt his development or his evaluation (save injury, which I beleive if it happens, it happens). Let me ask you this, if he got 11 more attempts and he stunk the joint up, taking sacks, holding the ball, etc, wouldn't that be of value to know now?

again , show me how 11 more snaps does any of the above to the point he is ruined if he didnt get them ? more reps doesnt hurt his development nor does getting the amount he already got which is in line with his peers

see the debate is the coaching staff blew it in his handling in the cleveland game because he didnt get enough "snaps " hence Rg3 wont be what he could be and it will be there fault because he was short changed 11 throws and X number of snaps

i have and am saying that they didnt do anything wrong and that rg3's issue are on him believe me the staff , SM know what they have already in RG3 and SM has said so . now if he thinks he is getting the snaps he needs then i will go with him on it

as for stinking up the joint and taking sacks etc , we already know this . he showed enough in the sample size to give the staff confidence he is heading in the right direction hence they moved on

he will still be a raw qb playing in the pocket if you gave him 66 snaps a game which you cant

do they not need to evaluate KC and mccoy ? or do we just kick them to the curb ?

you have a limited number of preseason snaps he got almost a full 1/3 of them in game one so what is the majic number ? then convince me that it will alter his career path not having them

tell me what amount of snaps is your majic number 25 , 30 40 45 50 , how much is enough ? they are pre season games . they arent of the same intensity of regular season games . so Rg3 proves he can not take a sack vs scripted 2nd team action . will that allay your fears any ?

 

[Sharkinva]

Rg3 was a mistake if you factor in everything to date . the ship has sailed as far as what we spent to get him . we have a new regime and i bet they are going to find out about Rg3 this year and if he isnt the guy then we will be in the qb market next draft

I disagree. Because if that ship has really sailed, then there is exactly zero reason to name him starter in February with no chance of competition for his spot going int training camp. In light of the fact that he has been at best average over the last two seasons, aside from what we paid to get him, there is NO reason to name him starter after a 4-12 season where none of the QBs out performed any of the others.

 

[j_y19]

again , show me how 11 more snaps does any of the above to the point he is ruined if he didnt get them ? more reps doesnt hurt his development nor does getting the amount he already got which is in line with his peers

see the debate is the coaching staff blew it in his handling in the cleveland game because he didnt get enough "snaps " hence Rg3 wont be what he could be and it will be there fault because he was short changed 11 throws and X number of snaps

i have and am saying that they didnt do anything wrong and that rg3's issue are on him believe me the staff , SM know what they have already in RG3 and SM has said so . now if he thinks he is getting the snaps he needs then i will go with him on it

as for stinking up the joint and taking sacks etc , we already know this . he showed enough in the sample size to give the staff confidence he is heading in the right direction hence they moved on

he will still be a raw qb playing in the pocket if you gave him 66 snaps a game which you cant

do they not need to evaluate KC and mccoy ? or do we just kick them to the curb ?

you have a limited number of preseason snaps he got almost a full 1/3 of them in game one so what is the majic number ? then convince me that it will alter his career path not having them

tell me what amount of snaps is your majic number 25 , 30 40 45 50 , how much is enough ? they are pre season games . they arent of the same intensity of regular season games . so Rg3 proves he can not take a sack vs scripted 2nd team action . will that allay your fears any ?

First, you are putting words in mine and the mouths of the others who disagree with you. I went back and reread this thread. No one ever said he would be ruined with out an additional 11 attempts. There is no reason to exaggerate our opinions just because you disagree. Nor has anyone said that the additional snaps would automatically result in success for RG3. All we are suggesting is that for a QB that has struggled to become a proficient NFL QB, he needs as much work as possible in game situations. Controlled practices are not the same. That's like saying that a kid that learns how to drive a car on the driveway will be proficient on driving on the beltway.

As for where does his snaps come from? Well, if we are truly all in with Robert, then, hell yeah, take them from KC and Colt. Both of those guys are most likely gone after this year.

As for he is being handled like his peers, well, the vast majority of his peers are far ahead of him. That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many as evidenced by recent polls. So that alone should tell you he needs more training than them.

The magic number of snaps is as many as he can get. I don't put a number on it, but I would suggest at least a half in the first two games, 3 qtrs in the third game, and a couple of series in game 4. . But if you think that 8 pass attempts is enough to judge if he is ready or even improving, then that's just crazy. It's my belief that the coaching staff is concerned with injuries more than they believe they've seen enough of RG3. Specifically, they are concerned with injuries to other key players on the offense that must still play while RG3 is in there. This is the only argument that resonates with me. This hogwash of his attempts doubled, or they saw enough, or he is getting the same snaps as his peers is just that, hogwash.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'm not making excuses, just stating the obvious. You were the one to trot out the Jason Campbell comparison. I also find it hard to understand why you can never give credit to the guy. You are literally the only person on Earth who said that Griffin's throw to Garcon was not a TD even if it had been caught due to the late throw. That is not just nonsense it's complete bullshit. That was a TD.

Back to SM he also said it was a mistake to give up so many high picks for one guy. You may disagree and I totally understand why you would but I don't think they are playing him because of the price they paid. I think they honestly think he is the best chance on the roster to be great.

And that my friend is what I'm holding out hope for as well. I saw the same things you saw the last 2 years. Again I totally get why you have thrown in the towel on the guy you never wanted in the first place. I'll just say that it should be painfully obvious by now that you don't win Super Bowls and be in title contention for a decade with a Ryan Tannehill. My team dared to be great instead of settling for average. The Rams did it your way by stockpiling high picks and building their roster and going into year 4 they are still looking for their first winning season.

Your boy has 16 games to prove he wasnt the biggest Draft mistake EVER. If the skins are looking for a QB in February the trade and subsequent drafting of Bob will officially be listed as worst ever. You saw potential greatness, I saw another bone headed personnel move brought to you by the Washington Redskins. And remember you have to WIN games in the regular season to even be in the post season hunt. And that average Tannehill last time i checked has managed to

1. Win more games
2. Stay healthy
3. Get an extension while wonder bob is still in the hotly debated WTF are we doing here category.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

kirk cousin is like rb travis jervy they both kickass in preason then when the season starts there poop that is all

 

[skinsdad62]

First, you are putting words in mine and the mouths of the others who disagree with you. I went back and reread this thread. No one ever said he would be ruined with out an additional 11 attempts. There is no reason to exaggerate our opinions just because you disagree. Nor has anyone said that the additional snaps would automatically result in success for RG3. All we are suggesting is that for a QB that has struggled to become a proficient NFL QB, he needs as much work as possible in game situations. Controlled practices are not the same. That's like saying that a kid that learns how to drive a car on the driveway will be proficient on driving on the beltway.

As for where does his snaps come from? Well, if we are truly all in with Robert, then, hell yeah, take them from KC and Colt. Both of those guys are most likely gone after this year.

As for he is being handled like his peers, well, the vast majority of his peers are far ahead of him. That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many as evidenced by recent polls. So that alone should tell you he needs more training than them.

The magic number of snaps is as many as he can get. I don't put a number on it, but I would suggest at least a half in the first two games, 3 qtrs in the third game, and a couple of series in game 4. . But if you think that 8 pass attempts is enough to judge if he is ready or even improving, then that's just crazy. It's my belief that the coaching staff is concerned with injuries more than they believe they've seen enough of RG3. Specifically, they are concerned with injuries to other key players on the offense that must still play while RG3 is in there. This is the only argument that resonates with me. This hogwash of his attempts doubled, or they saw enough, or he is getting the same snaps as his peers is just that, hogwash.

ok so let me get this straight from you and the others who disagree with me

you and others complain he didnt get enough snaps yet you dont know what "enough " snaps are

i put the number 11 snaps on because the highest amount of attempted passes are 19 yet you say it wont ruin but he needs them anyway i am exaggerating or putting words in your collective mouths by saying or implying that . then why are we saying more snaps will help, but then say it wont ruin him when i bring it up , unless you believe it will ruin him .

either it helps and makes him the qb we want or it doesnt it isnt " well it will help him but then again it wont hurt him either " either it does or it doesnt i say its no big deal

at the end of the day those snaps wont have made a real difference and no coach is putting his starter in for a half of game one preseason . so why are we acting like its a mortal sin that gruden didnt do that ?

so what do i take away from this ? the 11 extra snaps dont matter except when you guys want to complain then they matter ?

8 passes arent enough to judge anything but its one game and a game that is perhaps a step above a gloried practice in which teams are showing basic defense and reads . i am not sure that really needs 120 responses in a thread .

he played 1/3 of the snaps (just about ) it is in line with his peers . what is hog wash is that these extra snaps, which you cant ID is enough, will make a huge difference in the product we will see in week one and if they wont make a huge difference then why do we argue like they will . i am sorry but 12 snaps arent going to change what we think of him by much

 

[skinsdad62]

I disagree. Because if that ship has really sailed, then there is exactly zero reason to name him starter in February with no chance of competition for his spot going int training camp. In light of the fact that he has been at best average over the last two seasons, aside from what we paid to get him, there is NO reason to name him starter after a 4-12 season where none of the QBs out performed any of the others.

well i cant answer that because that wouldnt have been my move . all i can say is the cost is done and we cant get that back .

you are left with 2 choices , get rid of him and show snyder its done or 2 live with a game manager and eat the cost

right now they staff has chosen to try to salvage game manager out of him andall i can do as a fan is support our guy and hope he finds his way

but come a few games into the regular season my support will wane if production isnt there but i said i wouldnt bash him until the games mattered

if you ask me today if he is our qb of the present and future i would say NO based on his 2 past regular season performances

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Your boy has 16 games to prove he wasnt the biggest Draft mistake EVER. If the skins are looking for a QB in February the trade and subsequent drafting of Bob will officially be listed as worst ever. You saw potential greatness, I saw another bone headed personnel move brought to you by the Washington Redskins. And remember you have to WIN games in the regular season to even be in the post season hunt. And that average Tannehill last time i checked has managed to

1. Win more games
2. Stay healthy
3. Get an extension while wonder bob is still in the hotly debated WTF are we doing here category.

Oh no doubt this will be a disaster if he doesn't pan out. But I don't see this year as make or break as everyone else does seeing as they signed him to the extension for a very good reason, to have another year to evaluate.

Back to the trade I will try to recreate a post I made earlier in defense of it. Now all of this is predicated on the belief, one I had but you never did, that Robert Griffin was an elite prospect. A belief again shared by our genius GM. And that belief is very simple: you don't win big with a Ryan Tannehill. Ask the fans in Detroit and KC what a "pretty good" QB has done for them. A solid argument could be made that Cincy had the strongest 52 man roster in the AFC the last few years but their QB constantly comes up short when it matters. You may be fine with our team being good but never great but not me. No the name of the game today is to get a top QB, not a pretty good one, and my team dared to take a shot.

Now let's go back to 2012. The Colts won 1 game the year before, they were horrible. The Redskins weren't much better. They both add their QBs and literally overnight they are playoff teams with largely the same supporting cast. The Colts are now positioned to be in contention for the next 15 years and there is only one reason for that, the QB. And again the Rams are still looking for their first winning season with all those picks largely because they have ignored the fact that their QB was just not good enough.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I updated my post after you responded. I really don't care how many snaps other team's QBs got. I'm only concerned with my team and my team's QB needs as much game experience as possible.

I have to disagree. Preseason experience doesn't mean much in terms of vets even someone seeking to improve & modify their game such as RG3. I don't believe that RG3 & the team would benefit much from him playing an extra QTR or so each game.

Regular season experience is what really counts in this case. I don't care if they have to lose several games early on if it also results in RG3 showing that he has developed as a QB. On the flip side - if he fails again they will at least know that they have to move on (& I don't see anyway that this situation will be avoided by him playing more in the preseason).

I truly believe that the Redskins have more than enough info on RG3 & Cousins by what occurs in practice & whatever little time they play in preseason games. In the grand scheme a few extra reps in these games for RG3 means just about nothing.

 

[Sharkinva]

Oh no doubt this will be a disaster if he doesn't pan out. But I don't see this year as make or break as everyone else does seeing as they signed him to the extension for a very good reason, to have another year to evaluate.

Back to the trade I will try to recreate a post I made earlier in defense of it. Now all of this is predicated on the belief, one I had but you never did, that Robert Griffin was an elite prospect. A belief again shared by our genius GM. And that belief is very simple: you don't win big with a Ryan Tannehill. Ask the fans in Detroit and KC what a "pretty good" QB has done for them. A solid argument could be made that Cincy had the strongest 52 man roster in the AFC the last few years but their QB constantly comes up short when it matters. You may be fine with our team being good but never great but not me. No the name of the game today is to get a top QB, not a pretty good one, and my team dared to take a shot.

Now let's go back to 2012. The Colts won 1 game the year before, they were horrible. The Redskins weren't much better. They both add their QBs and literally overnight they are playoff teams with largely the same supporting cast. The Colts are now positioned to be in contention for the next 15 years and there is only one reason for that, the QB. And again the Rams are still looking for their first winning season with all those picks largely because they have ignored the fact that their QB was just not good enough.

I will simply say this... if you are in the playoffs hunt every year with an average to good QB ( Flacco, Eli Manning, and a few others fall into this category) You dramatically improve your chances of actually winning a super Bowl. Since you can not win a Super Bowl without first making the playoffs. I will give you that RG3 WAS an Elite Athlete, but elite QB.... Not by a long shot. Our Genius GM is not going to come out and say, I think he is done. especially when Im pretty sure a huge part of his job interview stemmed around the QB situation and COULD he salvage it. Tannehill has Improved every year and thus far all indications are that he will continue to do just that. Griffin has gotten worse each year and is finally trying to learn what every one else in his QB class was picking up two years ago. The Dolphins are likely to be closer to the playoffs hunt than the Skins this year, and if some how the Redskins do pull off the shocker it will be despite Griffin not because of him.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Oh no doubt this will be a disaster if he doesn't pan out. But I don't see this year as make or break as everyone else does seeing as they signed him to the extension for a very good reason, to have another year to evaluate.

That depends on several factors. If RG3 show little to no improvement this season, is hurt or gives way to Cousins early in the season AND the Redskins have a similar record to this season I believe that you can consider him gone for next season. Remember - the extension is only guaranteed for injury (which I guess could keep RG3 here if he suffers a major injury).

I don't necessarily expect any of this to occur, but you cannot just assume that RG3 will be on the team in 2016 no matter what transpires. If the worst occurs the fanbase will go nuts if they retain RG3 & name him the starter for 2016. Here is hoping for the best for 2015.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I will simply say this... if you are in the playoffs hunt every year with an average to good QB ( Flacco, Eli Manning, and a few others fall into this category) You dramatically improve your chances of actually winning a super Bowl. Since you can not win a Super Bowl without first making the playoffs. I will give you that RG3 WAS an Elite Athlete, but elite QB.... Not by a long shot. Our Genius GM is not going to come out and say, I think he is done. especially when Im pretty sure a huge part of his job interview stemmed around the QB situation and COULD he salvage it. Tannehill has Improved every year and thus far all indications are that he will continue to do just that. Griffin has gotten worse each year and is finally trying to learn what every one else in his QB class was picking up two years ago. The Dolphins are likely to be closer to the playoffs hunt than the Skins this year, and if some how the Redskins do pull off the shocker it will be despite Griffin not because of him.

It almost sounds as if you are suggesting that SM got this job since he had to maintain that RG3 was his QB & he could fix that situation. If so then I completely disagree. This was primarily a matter of whether SM would take the job - not that he passed all of the tests to satisfy Snyder and the Redskins.

As for this season - who cares? Of course the Dolphins are more likely to make the playoffs than the Redskins & a lot of this goes well beyond the QB position. Again - it appears that the Redskins are rebuilding their team in order to be solid contenders within the next few years. SM has come out and stated that they will have problems this season & doesn't expect much. As realistic fans we should feel the same way.

The past approach of trying to be contenders every year (& being impatient) has put this team further & further behind each season. Time to look beyond the QB position & look at the entire team. Again - I am on record as saying that I am fine w/ this team unloading both RG3 and Cousins next season & starting over if they both fail again. Hopefully - even if this occurs - the remainder of the team will be in decent shape. Should be fun watching this unfold. In any case I will pull 100% for either RG3 or Cousins this season as long as they are in a Redskins uniform. It sounds as if you are pulling against RG3 regardless.

 

[Sharkinva]

Socal... there is a difference between hoping he fails and expecting him to. I actually expect us to ride with him the entire season unless he gets injured no matter how he is playing. And I maintain the belief that currently this team is in a worse position with him than they would have been without him. As for this season, if it was really about finding the best 53, the only positions that should Not have been up for grabs are LT, HB, OLB (Kerrigan in any case), WR 1 and 2 and K. Robinsons spot. Aside from that, every spot should have been open and especially QB. Now I will grant that we have also filled out the D-line to an extent. But naming him starter in February two days after saying it was an open comp.... sorry that just rings a bit fishy to me.

But no Im not hoping he fails, just tired of all the excuses for him because I expect he will actually fail and ultimately waste another season in the process.