Game of Thrones

[Bulletz]

And has a LEGAL right to the throne.

I love it.

 

[Gatorchip]

Okay, so how then, in your mind, can she 'win?'

What does she want? If it's to just get Winterfell back, then I guess she already did win.

Also, as I pointed out already, you hold your cards until they're worth the most. She can play the trump of the Moon Door, whenever she wants to.

She has no trump card with the moon door because she already said the story was true. If she changes the story, then she can’t be trusted either. It would be her word against his. It would be foolish of her to bring it up again.

For now, she dangles the hope of some Tully vag. And he brings the Vale army.

he already got the tully vag from her aunt, but he wanted her moms instead. As discussed earlier, I think he dangled the hope that he would help her, and she went for the bait. Now she owes him, or at the very least, they are now even after he fed her to Ramsey.

Who is leading whom?

How is any futher ahead in his quest to sit the Iron throne after defeating Bolton? Why'd he come to her rescue?

He saved the North, and the Starks, from the Boltons. He helped Jon become king of the north as well. Sansa is finally able to feel relatively safe after his rescue. I think this all gets him closer to the iron throne (assuming that’s what he’s after), but now Jon is in his way too. Perhaps he thinks he will marry Sansa, but I don't see Sansa trusting him enough to give him that. She doesn't trust anyone now, and I don't really expect much more from her in regard to making a run for power. I see her more as a powerful game piece for those playing the game.

 

[chf]

see her more as a powerful game piece for those playing the game.

Sure, and for the first books, that is all she was. Question is, is she just a passive piece to be captured or used still?

We obviously disagree. We'll find out.

Further to your comment about recapturing Winterfell, that was what had to happen if the Stark house was going to continue. So it's not JUST Winterfell, it's the Stark name. Leave it in Bolton's hands, and house Stark is consigned to the dustbin of history.

Does she herself want to sit the Iron Throne? I don't think she does. Does she want to preserve her birthright, and to stop being a pawn in other's games? Absolutely.

I find it hard to fathom that someone could take something different out of how they've portrayed her this season.

LF will end up dead or back being Lord of Stones on his rocky shore with the sheep and three servants.

My guess anyway.

 

[chf]

t would be her word against his. It would be foolish of her to bring it up again.

Few more comments.

Except all the Vale Knights HATE Petr Baelish. Can't stand him. She's Sansa Stark, and now that she's back in Winterfell, her word has weight it didn't have when she was in the Vale.

he already got the tully vag from her aunt, but he wanted her moms instead.

Bingo. And who most closely resembles Mom back in the day? Who'd he chastely kiss in the snowy garden as he helped her build snow castles? Sansa. Sansa = Cat, at least in some part of his mind.

As discussed earlier, I think he dangled the hope that he would help her, and she went for the bait. Now she owes him, or at the very least, they are now even after he fed her to Ramsey.

And that's because he sees her as tractable, and still her foolish still not sold to Bolton to r*pe and torture girlish self. His error. She hates Baelish with a white hot passion, but AS HE TAUGHT HER, is holding her true feelings and motivations close to her chest. Who is playing whom?

My bet is that she doesn't do LF herself. She moves the pieces, watches him die, whispers something to him, and offers up that smile as she walks away.

Heh, now of course, that I've written that down, GRRM will disappoint me.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Few more comments.

Except all the Vale Knights HATE Petr Baelish. Can't stand him. She's Sansa Stark, and now that she's back in Winterfell, her word has weight it didn't have when she was in the Vale.

Which is nothing. When Robb Stark, the actual king of the North called for help, they completely ignored the Starks because Lyssa didn't want to help. Petyr calls them to war and they jump up and fight. Seems to me they could care less about what's happening in Winterfell.

"Oh, Ramsey is running things and keeping Stark sons prisoner? That's nice".

 

[Edonidd]

Which is nothing. When Robb Stark, the actual king of the North called for help, they completely ignored the Starks because Lyssa didn't want to help. Petyr calls them to war and they jump up and fight. Seems to me they could care less about what's happening in Winterfell.

"Oh, Ramsey is running things and keeping Stark sons prisoner? That's nice".

That's the difference between the books and the show. The books are filled with nuances, that apparently not everyone even gets. The show feels the need to beat you over the head with something to make a point.

They didn't completely ignore Robb Stark, or at least we don't know if they did. Many nay have wanted to help him, or others may have wanted to help the throne. But they are all sworn to their major house, in this case House Aryn. Lyssa was in charge of house Aryn until her son came of age, and she said nope, not gonna help my nephew. So they didn't. Now he has come of age so Littlefinger talks him into helping out his cousin Sansa, and SweetRobin being the half-retard he is pretty much follows where he is lead.

 

[Cobrabit]

Yes, the Knights of the Vale stayed put when Robb called for them since their Lord (Robyn) told them to under the heavy influence of his mother. Once she was out of the picture, LF now had heavy influence of him and told him to take the army to Winterfell. They didn't jump up to fight for LF, they came to fight because their Lord told them too, even though the Lord is being controlled by LF.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

That's the difference between the books and the show. The books are filled with nuances, that apparently not everyone even gets. The show feels the need to beat you over the head with something to make a point.

They didn't completely ignore Robb Stark, or at least we don't know if they did. Many nay have wanted to help him, or others may have wanted to help the throne. But they are all sworn to their major house, in this case House Aryn. Lyssa was in charge of house Aryn until her son came of age, and she said nope, not gonna help my nephew. So they didn't. Now he has come of age so Littlefinger talks him into helping out his cousin Sansa, and SweetRobin being the half-retard he is pretty much follows where he is lead.

Oh yes, read the books, that's a really different world there. I was more talking the TV show version here. The book made it clear the relationship between the Starks and Arryns. They fought a thousand year war. There was no love lost between those two families.



But like you say, doesn't matter how crazy Lyssa is, they are sworn to their house. I get they don't like Baelish, but I can't believe any of the Arryn vassal houses saw Lyssa after her husband died and liked her one bit. I can't believe anyone in that house saw Robert and thought anything good of that situation. They are sworn to Littlefinger same as they were to those two.


And bringing up Sansa talking about what Petyr really did is kinda pointless to me, if he thought she could have done that the only time when it mattered (before her story made him Lord Protector of the Vale), she would have been right behind her aunt. He knew what she would do. She could have been strong enough to tell the truth, but it would have cost her her life before it mattered.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Looking at it, her not speaking up when her aunt was killed is the reason she probably lived through that battle of the bastards and the Ramsey's don't still run the North. Sure those under House Arryn don't like Petyr, because he's from a lesser house in the Vale. Because he wasn't around much and got lucky and married his way to the top spot. But he was the only one in any way that would help the Starks who could have become Lord protector. She rats him out and someone else steps up from a major house in the Vale (Corbray or Royce or whatever) to help rule until Robert comes of age (or they kill him and take over). What do they care of what's happening in Winterfell?

The only one that had a chance to be in power in the Vale that would do anything to help the Starks is.... Petyr.

 

[juliansteed]

Don't forget that Littlefinger also promised Cersei Sansa's head and that he would retake Winterfell in the name of House Lannister. His plan was to let the Bolton's and Stannis battle and then take out the winner when they were most vulnerable. Instead he came in at the last minute to help Jon defeat Ramsay. Ramsay is wiped out but the North may not be as vulnerable as he hoped. They lost a lot of men in that battle but all the northern houses that stayed out of the fight have since declared allegiance to Jon. So it may not be quite as easy as he hoped it would be.

Of course, it's just as likely that he is playing Cersei as it is Sansa, but why bother making that deal with Cersei if he had no intentions of cashing in on it in any way? He could have just as easily made all the same moves that he did and be in the same situation. If Littlefinger's end goal eventually turns out to actually be on the Iron Throne wish Sansa as his queen I'll be disappointed in his character's writing in the last episode. Didn't he say a couple of seasons ago something about never letting people know what you want so that they'll never know what you plan to do next?

 

[chf]

Which is nothing. When Robb Stark, the actual king of the North called for help, they completely ignored the Starks because Lyssa didn't want to help. Petyr calls them to war and they jump up and fight. Seems to me they could care less about what's happening in Winterfell.

"Oh, Ramsey is running things and keeping Stark sons prisoner? That's nice".

Lyssa kept them out. (at Baelish's behest) She murdered Jon Arryn at Petyr's behest. Petyr convinces them that Lyssa wanted him to rule with Sansa's help lying about it. They still don't like him. As soon as they find out that he murdered their King (through Lyssa) and their Queen, and fooled them all, they'll kill his ass. Sansa can tell them the truth anytime she wants to.

Why did LF maintain the fiction that Sansa was his bastard daughter? Because in their hands she was a chip, or via marriage, a way to potentially gain the North. So she had to not be Sansa while she was there.

LF's grip on the Vale is tenuous at best.

 

[chf]

Also, it's not as if there was no connection between house Stark and house Arryn. Both Eddard and Robert Baratheon were sent there as boys, fostered to Jon Arryn. Arryn and Ned were close later on too. So I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that no-one in the Vale gives a fuck about the North and the Starks specifically.

Sister Lyssa was loony-tunes and wrapped around LF's uh, finger.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Also, it's not as if there was no connection between house Stark and house Arryn. Both Eddard and Robert Baratheon were sent there as boys, fostered to Jon Arryn. Arryn and Ned were close later on too. So I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that no-one in the Vale gives a fuck about the North and the Starks specifically.

Sister Lyssa was loony-tunes and wrapped around LF's uh, finger.

Actually Lysa kept them out of helping the Starks on her own (when Caitlyn was there asking for help early on).


I wouldn't call it a strong connection between the families. Especially anymore. Just about all the families fostered children in each others lands. Doesn't make the Martells and Lannisters best of friends when they were doing the same thing.


The only positive tie to the Starks is still Petyr/Sansa right? Other than that you have the thousand year war, Eddard and Jon's relationship which cooled off when Eddard got upset Jon wouldn't send Jaime to the wall and Jon working out the marriage of Robert to Cersei and left for the North which really hurt Eddard/Roberts relationship.

I agree LF's grip there is tenuous, and while Sansa changing her mind later and admitting LF murdered Lyssa, would get Petyr out, I don't see why her letting him stand in that position in the first place for so long would help her cause.

 

[chf]

Actually Lysa kept them out of helping the Starks on her own (when Caitlyn was there asking for help early on).


I wouldn't call it a strong connection between the families. Especially anymore. Just about all the families fostered children in each others lands. Doesn't make the Martells and Lannisters best of friends when they were doing the same thing.


The only positive tie to the Starks is still Petyr/Sansa right? Other than that you have the thousand year war, Eddard and Jon's relationship which cooled off when Eddard got upset Jon wouldn't send Jaime to the wall and Jon working out the marriage of Robert to Cersei and left for the North which really hurt Eddard/Roberts relationship.

I agree LF's grip there is tenuous, and while Sansa changing her mind later and admitting LF murdered Lyssa, would get Petyr out, I don't see why her letting him stand in that position in the first place for so long would help her cause.

Jon never passed on his theories about the ince$t, because he didn't have firm proof. How 'strong' the connection is from fostering is relative. Families do it (or offer up hostages), for a reason. Otherwise, why bother? At any rate, I'm not saying that Arryn and Stark are joined at the hip or anything, but just that there was history there.

Sansa HAD to let LF stand in that position initially, or she'd have been a hostage again, or worse. Why didn't she turn him in right away? Because she's learning the lessons Petyr taught her. Wait, bide your time, use your advantage when it means the most.

It got her Winterfell back, and removed the Boltons from the board.

Why play that card earlier?

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Jon never passed on his theories about the ince$t, because he didn't have firm proof. How 'strong' the connection is from fostering is relative. Families do it (or offer up hostages), for a reason. Otherwise, why bother? At any rate, I'm not saying that Arryn and Stark are joined at the hip or anything, but just that there was history there.

Sansa HAD to let LF stand in that position initially, or she'd have been a hostage again, or worse. Why didn't she turn him in right away? Because she's learning the lessons Petyr taught her. Wait, bide your time, use your advantage when it means the most.

It got her Winterfell back, and removed the Boltons from the board.

Why play that card earlier?

I agree fully with you on keeping that trump card. Why play it when LF can be your best ally for the Vale, because the others there are not. That's her best shot to use the Vale currently.

I think if she would have convinced herself to turn him in right away, he would have been able to see if she was telling the truth or not. He's pretty adept at those things, and I don't think she was as good at hiding herself. I don't know if her reasoning was her thinking it through or just the scared mouse bit. I lean more towards the time of scared.

 

[chf]

I agree fully with you on keeping that trump card. Why play it when LF can be your best ally for the Vale, because the others there are not. That's her best shot to use the Vale currently.

I think if she would have convinced herself to turn him in right away, he would have been able to see if she was telling the truth or not. He's pretty adept at those things, and I don't think she was as good at hiding herself. I don't know if her reasoning was her thinking it through or just the scared mouse bit. I lean more towards the time of scared.

Well I think we have to be careful not to give any of GRRM's characters god-like agency. They're all very fallible and human. Even master manipulator sharp as knives players like LF and Lady Tyrell are still making it up as they go along. Waiting for stuff to unfold, and doing what they see as right at the time.

So take Baelish having Ser Dontos (the fool) as his catspaw. There was no way he could have KNOWN ahead of time exactly what would happen with Sansa. She could have died multiple times as all those events played out. And yet there was Dontos, being paid by LF to watch and spy and whisper secrets. Eventually LF was able to use him to secret Sansa away from the Red Keep, because he'd kept him in reserve.

So I don't know exactly if or how Sansa has plans for the Vale troops. I think she understands that she could easily manipulate Robbin just like LF does. A newly 'eyes wide open' Sansa could even marry Robbin, and she'd be wearing the pants, and controlling the best equipped and least exhausted fighting force in Westeros.
Or maybe she's gone even further to the darkside, and wants to get rid of Jon now?

All bets are going to be off though, once Bran shows up, as he automatically has the best claim to be Lord of Winterfell.

Not to mention when R+L=J is revealed, and Jon suddenly has his sights set a lot higher than just the North.
Anyway, my larger point in this whole discussion, is only that Sansa has changed appreciably since her days arguing with Arya about having dirty knees. Is she suddenly Lady Tyrell in the smarts department? Probably not. Although, as GRRM loves to do, Lady Tyrell isn't having the best of runs either lately. Boom goes the family.

So I feel the need to argue with people who want to insist that Sansa is still as foolish as always, and has only had her recent success due to dumb luck. That LF is going to get over on her again.

Just my .02, but to me, LF is maybe the least likely character to be triumphant at the end of the saga. He's fatally flawed by birth and genetics - all of his maneuverings will eventually come to naught as someone higher up the social ladder, or stronger or with more loyal followers swats him like a bothersome fly.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

So I don't know exactly if or how Sansa has plans for the Vale troops. I think she understands that she could easily manipulate Robbin just like LF does. A newly 'eyes wide open' Sansa could even marry Robbin, and she'd be wearing the pants, and controlling the best equipped and least exhausted fighting force in Westeros.
Or maybe she's gone even further to the darkside, and wants to get rid of Jon now?

I guess, but my thought is if she does spill the beans, those in the Vale want those from the Vale to rule. If they got rid of LF, I think any lord regent named would be of the Vale, no more people ruling they don't feel are worthy. Nestor Royce, the Corbray guy, someone like that seems like a clear choice over letting her run things.

And not sure I could see Sansa after forced marriages (or nearly) to Joff, Tyrion, and Ramsey, choosing the worst still living bachelor in the land (Robbin) willingly even for political power. I think if she marries again, the show will find a much better suitor for her character, something closer to her storybook hope. LF killing Robbin in an attempt to keep his power at his demise, and her marrying a TV version of Harold Hardyng would sound better to me lol.

As for her, I think she wants Jon to be king (made him dad's coat, gave him dad's room, basically was the force that helped him to the claim) and uses her trump if/when LF tries to use the Vale to stand up to Jon as soon as he realizes his hope for a peaceful claim by the two of them disappears without her support. Plus I would believe they would give Jon a strong king role in the next season with the white walkers being their real enemy as the rest fight in the south.

Just my thoughts and hopes

Also was it book only or the show too where Lysa admits to killing Jon Arryn? I keep wondering if they will come back to that situation.

 

[chf]

I guess, but my thought is if she does spill the beans, those in the Vale want those from the Vale to rule. If they got rid of LF, I think any lord regent named would be of the Vale, no more people ruling they don't feel are worthy. Nestor Royce, the Corbray guy, someone like that seems like a clear choice over letting her run things.

And not sure I could see Sansa after forced marriages (or nearly) to Joff, Tyrion, and Ramsey, choosing the worst still living bachelor in the land (Robbin) willingly even for political power. I think if she marries again, the show will find a much better suitor for her character, something closer to her storybook hope. LF killing Robbin in an attempt to keep his power at his demise, and her marrying a TV version of Harold Hardyng would sound better to me lol.

As for her, I think she wants Jon to be king (made him dad's coat, gave him dad's room, basically was the force that helped him to the claim) and uses her trump if/when LF tries to use the Vale to stand up to Jon as soon as he realizes his hope for a peaceful claim by the two of them disappears without her support. Plus I would believe they would give Jon a strong king role in the next season with the white walkers being their real enemy as the rest fight in the south.

Just my thoughts and hopes

Also was it book only or the show too where Lysa admits to killing Jon Arryn? I keep wondering if they will come back to that situation.

Littlefinger can't rule the Vale without Robin Arryn. Robin is the heir. If he dies, then the families will duke it out to see who becomes the next Lord.

And Sansa doing something as mercenary as marrying Robin would perfectly illustrate her transition from dreaming girl to open-eyed woman. Would there be almost ANY potential partner that she'd PREFER over milk boy? Absolutely. But it would cement her in her own power. And it would be her choice more importantly. I think she's about had enough of being a commodity.

But pragmatism now seems to be Sansa's deal. Remember the interior monologues that Cat Stark had when Robb decides to marry Jeyne Poole (Westerling)? First thing she noticed about her was that she was pretty, but that she had skinny hips. Total pragmatist. Will she be able to bear Robb many children, and ensure the continuation of the Stark line?

Turned out to be prophetic of course, since that marriage and throwing over the arranged marriage with the Freys led to the Red Wedding.

Hell, Cat Stark wasn't even supposed to marry Ned originally, but they both did their 'duty' for their houses.

Anyway, I have no idea what GRRM has planned for Sansa specifically, and I suspect that you're right, that she'll step back to let Jon take the lead (at least until Bran shows up).

As for Lyssa killing Jon Arryn in the show, I'd have to re-watch, don't remember. I doubt all those little details come out in the wash moving forward though - everyone's going to have more important stuff on their plate, and all those players are dead now anyway.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Got to figure a good guy or gal wins out at the end. For me that means Daenerys, Jon Snow or Arya. The rest are fillers. I'll be dang disappointed if it ends up differently. Mmm guess I could add Bran to the good guys ledger, but he's not my favorite. Think I like Arya the best.

 

[calsnowskier]

Got to figure a good guy or gal wins out at the end. For me that means Daenerys, Jon Snow or Arya. The rest are fillers. I'll be dang disappointed if it ends up differently. Mmm guess I could add Bran to the good guys ledger, but he's not my favorite. Think I like Arya the best.

I am fully to the point where it HAS to Dany winning the South and Jon leading the fight in the north. If either die, I am OK, but the story has to be about something, otherwise, it is pointless.

This is the story of how Jon saves Westeros from the Walkers and Dany saves Westeros from themselves. Anything else and the show is really just a soap opera.