Game of Thrones

[chf]

She won the battle because the Knights of the Vale fell into her lap because of who she is and because Littlefinger has some use for her. She's always had some political value, which is why she's been married twice and engaged to three others at various points. It wasn't any great character development that led to her winning the war. Had she played her cards right, she could have had the knights of the Vale from the beginning possibly without Littlefinger.

So she did it, but not in the style you'd prefer.

I'd love you to explain how she could have had the Vale Knights though.

Women in that world have their vaginas and family of birth. Dany is an exception because she has dragons, without those she has... wait for it, her vagina. Remember she was SOLD at the beginning too. Cercei talks constantly about how if she had a prick, she'd be running the show. But she has... wait for it, a vagina. Ironically brother Robb dies because, wait for it, he wanted verboten vagina.

As for the rest of your post, we'll see.

GRRM loves him some major protagonists dying, but he also loves him some redemption story.

So we'll find out. I think you're 100% wrong. LF's weakness is that he's always wanted some Tully vagina. And guess what Sansa has? A Tully/Stark vag.

Now that she's not a blushing maid anymore, she's fully aware of the power she wields, and where it lies.

 

[calsnowskier]

So she did it, but not in the style you'd prefer.

I'd love you to explain how she could have had the Vale Knights though.

Women in that world have their vaginas and family of birth. Dany is an exception because she has dragons, without those she has... wait for it, her vagina. Remember she was SOLD at the beginning too. Cercei talks constantly about how if she had a prick, she'd be running the show. But she has... wait for it, a vagina. Ironically brother Robb dies because, wait for it, he wanted verboten vagina.

As for the rest of your post, we'll see.

GRRM loves him some major protagonists dying, but he also loves him some redemption story.

So we'll find out. I think you're 100% wrong. LF's weakness is that he's always wanted some Tully vagina. And guess what Sansa has? A Tully/Stark vag.

Now that she's not a blushing maid anymore, she's fully aware of the power she wields, and where it lies.

You are so sexist. Women are more than just vag's...








Sorry, I couldnt complete that with a straight face...

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Sansa lucked out at best.
If she had just dropped a dime on Littlefinger 2 seasons ago, he is following Crazy Stark chick downwards.

Sansa would then have basically control thanks to an obvious ability to manipulate her cousin.
That kid is the most easily manipulated kid in the entire realms.
He would have adored her and did everything she asked.

With her Stark name and blood relations, Sansa is effectively the Queen Regent of the Vale.
Not a single fucking Northman sides with Ramsay if they know a Stark heir controls a giant army in the Vale.

Her father clearly supported Stannis, so that army stays intact to go kick ass down south.
They would figure something out where the Starks are vassals to Baratheons again. It was their dads set up.

Instead she lies to save Littlefinger, ends up getting raped and tortured.
Countless men in the North die because she figured the most untrustworthy dude in the Kingdoms was worth saving for no apparent reason.

The she compounds her stupidity by not letting Jon even know she still had influence in the Vale.

Worthless character who will likely fuck up everything again.

 

[chf]

You are so sexist. Woman are more than just vag's...








Sorry, I couldnt complete that with a straight face...

No love for my alliterative verboten vagina?

Awesome name for an all-girls punk band.

 

[chf]

Sansa lucked out at best.
If she had just dropped a dime on Littlefinger 2 seasons ago, he is following Crazy Stark chick downwards.

Sansa would then have basically control thanks to an obvious ability to manipulate her cousin.
That kid is the most easily manipulated kid in the entire realms.
He would have adored her and did everything she asked.

With her Stark name and blood relations, Sansa is effectively the Queen Regent of the Vale.
Not a single fucking Northman sides with Ramsay if they know a Stark heir controls a giant army in the Vale.

Her father clearly supported Stannis, so that army stays intact to go kick ass down south.
They would figure something out where the Starks are vassals to Baratheons again. It was their dads set up.

Instead she lies to save Littlefinger, ends up getting raped and tortured.
Countless men in the North die because she figured the most untrustworthy dude in the Kingdoms was worth saving for no apparent reason.

The she compounds her stupidity by not letting Jon even know she still had influence in the Vale.

Worthless character who will likely fuck up everything again.

Nope, there were at least 2 factions in the Vale poised and ready to take milk-boy into their possession, and rule the Vale in his name. As a Stark, the only power she had in the Vale was through her sister's good graces, and we all know how that nearly turned out.

She had no influence in the Vale, beyond her hold over LF. That's it. What she to Arryns and Corbrays and Royces? Nothing. Other than a chip to be sold to the highest bidder? Why are they going to fight FOR her?

 

[juliansteed]

So she did it, but not in the style you'd prefer.

I'd love you to explain how she could have had the Vale Knights though.

Women in that world have their vaginas and family of birth. Dany is an exception because she has dragons, without those she has... wait for it, her vagina. Remember she was SOLD at the beginning too. Cercei talks constantly about how if she had a prick, she'd be running the show. But she has... wait for it, a vagina. Ironically brother Robb dies because, wait for it, he wanted verboten vagina.

As for the rest of your post, we'll see.

GRRM loves him some major protagonists dying, but he also loves him some redemption story.

So we'll find out. I think you're 100% wrong. LF's weakness is that he's always wanted some Tully vagina. And guess what Sansa has? A Tully/Stark vag.

Now that she's not a blushing maid anymore, she's fully aware of the power she wields, and where it lies.

How I'd "like" her to do it is 100% irrelevant to my point. I personally don't care how she does it. You might think that I'm arguing a point that I'm not. I'm just saying that her winning that battle wasn't the result of any great character growth, but simply because of who she was. And you know what? Good for her! The Knight's of the Vale fell right into her lap. Actually the fact that you are bringing up Daenerys, Cersei, and talking about vaginas tells me that you absolutely think I'm trying to make a point that I was not making. I'm not comparing her to any other character on the show, male or female. I'm only comparing her to her past self. She's been through a lot but she hasn't really changed much over the course of the series much more than any other girl would going from 14-20, or at least if she has her actions haven't showed it yet. All she's learned is not to trust Littlefinger, which pretty much everyone would know by now.

You'd love for me to explain how she could have had the Knights of the Vale? I can only assume you misunderstood what I meant by "from the beginning". I meant from the first time Littlefinger offered them to her. I didn't mean from the beginning of the series.

 

[chf]

You'd love for me to explain how she could have had the Knights of the Vale? I can only assume you misunderstood what I meant from "the beginning". I meant from the first time Littlefinger offered them to her. I didn't mean from the beginning of the series.

But you can't have it both ways! Was she right to 'trust' LF and use the Vale earlier? Let LF loose amongst her too honest brother and his wildlings? If she was right to NOT trust him, then she waited until she felt she had no other choice.

I get it, people don't like her. She was the character beyond her 'prince', that I most hoped would get trampled by a horse early on in the books/show.

What I don't get is how peopel think that 'what color will my bridal dress be? And will it match the color of my Prince's eyes?' foolish girl, hasn't undergone any character growth?

C'mon now.

Again, you can hate her guts. But she's had as much change in her character as Jayme Lannister has. How would she pull off this 'change' you want her to have? That's my point with the whole vagina deal. She played one of the cards she had to play with manipulating LF to come to their rescue at Winterfell.

 

[juliansteed]

But you can't have it both ways! Was she right to 'trust' LF and use the Vale earlier? Let LF loose amongst her too honest brother and his wildlings? If she was right to NOT trust him, then she waited until she felt she had no other choice.

I get it, people don't like her. She was the character beyond her 'prince', that I most hoped would get trampled by a horse early on in the books/show.

What I don't get is how peopel think that 'what color will my bridal dress be? And will it match the color of my Prince's eyes?' foolish girl, hasn't undergone any character growth?

C'mon now.

Again, you can hate her guts. But she's had as much change in her character as Jayme Lannister has. How would she pull off this 'change' you want her to have? That's my point with the whole vagina deal. She played one of the cards she had to play with manipulating LF to come to their rescue at Winterfell.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I like her. I'm rather indifferent towards her as I am with the majority of the characters on the show. There's been some really great ones that I liked a lot, but most fall into the category of indifference. I don't recall ever really hoping for any character to die that I can recall, except maybe for how it could advance the plot but not just for the sake of killing them.

I've said several times that she has potential to be a player and could very well prove to be one but she really hasn't made any significant, brilliant move yet. I suspect that she will at some point and that is what they are building towards but I've not seen it yet. That's all I'm saying.

And what exactly are the "both ways" that you think I want it in which I can't have it? Again, I think you may be confusing my arguments with that of someone else, because I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

 

[calsnowskier]

But you can't have it both ways! Was she right to 'trust' LF and use the Vale earlier? Let LF loose amongst her too honest brother and his wildlings? If she was right to NOT trust him, then she waited until she felt she had no other choice.

I get it, people don't like her. She was the character beyond her 'prince', that I most hoped would get trampled by a horse early on in the books/show.

What I don't get is how peopel think that 'what color will my bridal dress be? And will it match the color of my Prince's eyes?' foolish girl, hasn't undergone any character growth?

C'mon now.

Again, you can hate her guts. But she's had as much change in her character as Jayme Lannister has. How would she pull off this 'change' you want her to have? That's my point with the whole vagina deal. She played one of the cards she had to play with manipulating LF to come to their rescue at Winterfell.

Sorry, gotta call BS on that one.

Jaime went from tossing a 10-year old boy out a 10-story window to basically being one of the biggest "faces" on the show.

I realize you are just trying to make a point, but that comparison is insane.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

With her Stark name and blood relations, Sansa is effectively the Queen Regent of the Vale.
Not a single fucking Northman sides with Ramsay if they know a Stark heir controls a giant army in the Vale.

That's questionable... She'd be the cousin of their king. I doubt that would be anywhere close to Lord Protector of the Vale. They seem to consider themselves first over the Starks. Such as when Robb Stark, king of the North called for their help, and Lyssa didn't support. I didn't see any of them sending troops to their true king on their own.

My guess is that the houses would vote on the regent rather than let the cousin rule.

The Vale has been the group and army least likely to raise a sword over anything. They wouldn't leave to save the other Stark boys in Winterfell either. They played Switzerland all throughout the wars and are basically the only non-war torn area.

Sure, they hate the Boltons... But enough to declare war against the Lannisters for a female cousin?

 

[juliansteed]

Again, you can hate her guts. But she's had as much change in her character as Jayme Lannister has. How would she pull off this 'change' you want her to have? That's my point with the whole vagina deal. She played one of the cards she had to play with manipulating LF to come to their rescue at Winterfell.

Forgot to address this part in my last post. How would she pull off a change? That's kind of a hard question to answer. There are so many ways. If I was that creative I'd be writing my own books and TV shows. Yup, she played the hand that she was dealt. Good for her! I've said that already. She didn't manipulate anyone though. She was offered and eventually accepted. That's all we know at this point.

 

[chf]

It has nothing to do with whether or not I like her. I'm rather indifferent towards her as I am with the majority of the characters on the show. There's been some really great ones that I liked a lot, but most fall into the category of indifference. I don't recall ever really hoping for any character to die that I can recall, except maybe for how it could advance the plot but not just for the sake of killing them.

I've said several times that she has potential to be a player and could very well prove to be one but she really hasn't made any significant, brilliant move yet. I suspect that she will at some point and that is what they are building towards but I've not seen it yet. That's all I'm saying.

And what exactly are the "both ways" that you think I want it in which I can't have it? Again, I think you may be confusing my arguments with that of someone else, because I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

Yeah fair enough. I have the fault when I'm arguing against more than one person, of kind of mingling some of their arguments in my mind. Thinking about it, there's definitely other posters who are more, uhm... venomous towards Sansa.

I guess mostly we'd disagree in that 2nd last episode on whether she was being a player or not. Or to what degree. And I would in fact agree with you that she hasn't hit her apogee yet. Still to come.

I posted earlier, that I read a fan theory as to why she delayed, and it kind of made me feel stupid, because I was a bit fuzzy on what her angle was there. Soon as I read it though, I was 100% on board. But I've been wrong before about characters, and will of course be wrong again before the denouement.

 

[juliansteed]

Yeah fair enough. I have the fault when I'm arguing against more than one person, of kind of mingling some of their arguments in my mind. Thinking about it, there's definitely other posters who are more, uhm... venomous towards Sansa.

I guess mostly we'd disagree in that 2nd last episode on whether she was being a player or not. Or to what degree. And I would in fact agree with you that she hasn't hit her apogee yet. Still to come.

I posted earlier, that I read a fan theory as to why she delayed, and it kind of made me feel stupid, because I was a bit fuzzy on what her angle was there. Soon as I read it though, I was 100% on board. But I've been wrong before about characters, and will of course be wrong again before the denouement.

I could be partly at fault for that because you were debating with someone already when I jumped in and responded to one of your posts. In the initial post of yours that I responded to, there was no quote so I kind of assumed it was in response to my comment on the topic. So yeah, that would lead most to assume I was making the same points (especially if some were similar). Anyway whatever!

 

[chf]

Sorry, gotta call BS on that one.

Jaime went from tossing a 10-year old boy out a 10-story window to basically being one of the biggest "faces" on the show.

I realize you are just trying to make a point, but that comparison is insane.

What do you mean by 'faces?' He's DEFINITELY undergoing a character shift, especially in the novels. Going back for Brienne was a great example. So was him giving her the sword, and letting her walk from Riverrun.

Sansa jumped off the castle wall and escaped from Bolton (albeit with help) Given her background though, that was a pretty huge step, even with Theon's assistance.

That's why I keep asking people what they expect her character to morph into. She's not going to become the warrior Queen, she doesn't have those skills.

She DOES have the potential to morph into her Mother though. A capable leader who will make the tough decision.

Admitting that Rickon was a dead man walking was a tough choice. Potentially sacrificing Jon in the battle to have the Vale rout the overconfident Bolton was a tough choice.

Why people need to portray her as the same stupid girl, who only gets lucky is mystifying.

 

[chf]

I could be partly at fault for that because you were debating with someone already when I jumped in and responded to one of your posts. In the initial post of yours that I responded to, there was no quote so I kind of assumed it was in response to my comment on the topic. So yeah, that would lead most to assume I was making the same points (especially if some were similar). Anyway whatever!

It's all good. I get into these discussions, but I don't take stuff personally (well not too much anyway).

 

[Hank Kingsley]

I'm glad I just watch the show. Albeit less and less lately.

Having to argue horseshit is horseshit.... Everybody is an expert.....

 

[calsnowskier]

What do you mean by 'faces?' He's DEFINITELY undergoing a character shift, especially in the novels. Going back for Brienne was a great example. So was him giving her the sword, and letting her walk from Riverrun.

Sansa jumped off the castle wall and escaped from Bolton (albeit with help) Given her background though, that was a pretty huge step, even with Theon's assistance.

That's why I keep asking people what they expect her character to morph into. She's not going to become the warrior Queen, she doesn't have those skills.

She DOES have the potential to morph into her Mother though. A capable leader who will make the tough decision.

Admitting that Rickon was a dead man walking was a tough choice. Potentially sacrificing Jon in the battle to have the Vale rout the overconfident Bolton was a tough choice.

Why people need to portray her as the same stupid girl, who only gets lucky is mystifying.

I mean that he is essentially a "good guy". In wrestling, the good guys are "faces" and the bad guys are "heals".

He started as a pretentious, evil pretty boy who was screwing his sister. Then he lost his hand and that basically flipped him. He now looks after his little brother, has a deep friendship with an oaf of a female giant-knight, helps his right-hand-man get laid, and loves his kids. AND, his back-story has cleared up so that we view him as the hero in his life-defining act.

 

[chf]

I'm glad I just watch the show. Albeit less and less lately.

Having to argue horseshit is horseshit.... Everybody is an expert.....

Physician heal thy complaining ass self.

 

[chf]

I mean that he is essentially a "good guy". In wrestling, the good guys are "faces" and the bad guys are "heals".

He started as a pretentious, evil pretty boy who was screwing his sister. Then he lost his hand and that basically flipped him. He now looks after his little brother, has a deep friendship with an oaf of a female giant-knight, helps his right-hand-man get laid, and loves his kids. AND, his back-story has cleared up so that we view him as the hero in his life-defining act.

So why is it such a leap that GRRM (and B+W) are writing Sansa with a similar arc?

 

[Chef99]

I'm a little late to the party here (watched the finale last night), but I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't see that all signs point to Sansa becoming a major player in this little saga, at least for awhile.

Her character has clearly changed and grown. Seems to me that not only has she been hardened by her experiences, she has become smarter and craftier. I have actually come around to liking her.

And I loved that little season-ending smile.