Game of Thrones

[wildturkey]

Did dorne provide ships too?

Haven't rewatched the episode (I will) to confirm it myself but I've seen some comments saying in the final scene with Dany's ships, some of them have Dornish and Tyrell banners on them. So its like calsnowski and Cobrabit said, Varys secured their allegience and went back to Meereen (or met them somewhere in between) with their troops.


-I'll probably rewatch this episode multiple times this week. Soooo good. The first 10 to 15 minutes (ever how long Sept Trials is) was a masterclass in tension building. And the music was awesome, which they also used for Cersei's coronation. I don't know if it has a name but I'm dubbing the song "The Mad Queen's Anthem". Also, Cersei's outfit is pretty darn badass. She's evil as fuck but between that and the music, I sort of want to root for her.

-I'm stealing a comment I saw elsewhere. "So Loras' punishment for being a gay man is to never marry a woman and father children but to instead devote his life to a group filled with sexually repressed young men. The High Sparrow didn't think that one through"

 

[SFGRTB]

If you read some history of medieval warfare, the besiegers of castles often didn't fare well. Disease was one of the biggest problems. Supply lines into hostile territory too. Sieges could last years and years. The books go into great detail about the siege of Storms End, that being how Davos got his knighthood from Stannis, from smuggling in food.

Just this season on the show the Blackfish told Jayme he could hold out two years in River run.

We'll have to wait for the book to find out how well provisioned Bolton was.

And you're selectively remembering the Sansa scene. Yes she apologized, AFTER Jon gave her 100% of the credit for winning the battle. SHE won the battle.

Yeah, she gets full credit because in this scenario she did win the battle with the Vale swooping in last minute. But she apologizes because she knew she should have told Jon about the army sooner. She could have saved thousands of lives, including her brother's life, if they laid siege. We're getting way off track here lol, but a siege of Winterfell wouldn't have been a clear advantage for the castle squad. At one point in the show, Roose said they had only a year's worth of provisions if they needed to hold out (I repeat myself). Then throw in the fact that Jon's army is full of Northerners who know how to survive in the snow, and fight in the snow, and have allies. I could imagine other Northern houses who stayed out of it (Glover, Manderly etc.) would join the cause to even further strengthen Jon's army. Davos even said Ramsay will come out and meet Jon because the other North Houses are watching.

To get really specific, House Umber (their castle is Last Hearth) and House Karstark (their castle is Karhold) and the Dreadfort are all located in the North East section. Jon's army originated from the West and South. Supply lines could be easily routed into friendly territory, and easily cutoff in enemy territory. They would be well provisioned. House Cerwyn is located close to Winterfell, it could allow people to stay inside for a time.

My point is, yeah Sansa won. But she could have saved a lot more lives if she spat up about the Vale army. At least there would be a chance to save her brother too.

If we're talking book, then this goes out the window 100%. But I thought we were talking the show here.

 

[jakedog56]

Yeah, she gets full credit because in this scenario she did win the battle with the Vale swooping in last minute. But she apologizes because she knew she should have told Jon about the army sooner. She could have saved thousands of lives, including her brother's life, if they laid siege. We're getting way off track here lol, but a siege of Winterfell wouldn't have been a clear advantage for the castle squad. At one point in the show, Roose said they had only a year's worth of provisions if they needed to hold out (I repeat myself). Then throw in the fact that Jon's army is full of Northerners who know how to survive in the snow, and fight in the snow, and have allies. I could imagine other Northern houses who stayed out of it (Glover, Manderly etc.) would join the cause to even further strengthen Jon's army. Davos even said Ramsay will come out and meet Jon because the other North Houses are watching.

To get really specific, House Umber (their castle is Last Hearth) and House Karstark (their castle is Karhold) and the Dreadfort are all located in the North East section. Jon's army originated from the West and South. Supply lines could be easily routed into friendly territory, and easily cutoff in enemy territory. They would be well provisioned. House Cerwyn is located close to Winterfell, it could allow people to stay inside for a time.

My point is, yeah Sansa won. But she could have saved a lot more lives if she spat up about the Vale army. At least there would be a chance to save her brother too.

If we're talking book, then this goes out the window 100%. But I thought we were talking the show here.

There is no time for a siege. Jon knows full well that the White Walkers are on their way. Laying siege to a castle under these circumstances would be counter-intuitive.

In fact I do wonder why Jon bothered to retake Winterfell at all. Wouldn't it have been better to just rally the north elsewhere in preparation for the White Walkers coming south and let Ramsey hold Winterfell in ignorance until the WWs run him over like a semitruck?

 

[SFGRTB]

There is no time for a siege. Jon knows full well that the White Walkers are on their way. Laying siege to a castle under these circumstances would be counter-intuitive.

In fact I do wonder why Jon bothered to retake Winterfell at all. Wouldn't it have been better to just rally the north elsewhere in preparation for the White Walkers coming south and let Ramsey hold Winterfell in ignorance until the WWs run him over like a semitruck?

He was perfectly fine just not fighting anyone and leaving Winterfell behind, until Sansa brought up Rickon needing to be saved.

Jon knows there probably isn't time for a siege, but he doesn't care if it means he could save his brother. He charged straight into the opposing army to save his brother. He'll do anything for family. It's his redeeming quality and his weakness.

 

[jakedog56]

He was perfectly fine just not fighting anyone and leaving Winterfell behind, until Sansa brought up Rickon needing to be saved.

Jon knows there probably isn't time for a siege, but he doesn't care if it means he could save his brother. He charged straight into the opposing army to save his brother. He'll do anything for family. It's his redeeming quality and his weakness.

Which is all well and good except that Sansa also stated that there was no way to save Rickon, that he was already dead.

I firmly believed that Sansa was just being pragmatic in that there would be no saving Rickon from Ramsey and his sadistic tortures, but if she was the one that pointed it out that Rickon was in need of saving only to state later that there was not chance of it then I question her motives even more.

It was my understanding that Jon was rallying the north to take back Winterfell from the Boltons, not specifically to rescue Rickon. Saving Rickon (or trying to) was just additional motivation.

 

[NCChiFan]

Couple of things... One, how do you cook a pie and get the finger nails to be soft and not crunchy? Two, I call Shenanigans on the implications from the Citadel that winter is here, it will be at least 10 more months before it arrives.

 

[SFGRTB]

Which is all well and good except that Sansa also stated that there was no way to save Rickon, that he was already dead.

I firmly believed that Sansa was just being pragmatic in that there would be no saving Rickon from Ramsey and his sadistic tortures, but if she was the one that pointed it out that Rickon was in need of saving only to state later that there was not chance of it then I question her motives even more.

It was my understanding that Jon was rallying the north to take back Winterfell from the Boltons, not specifically to rescue Rickon. Saving Rickon (or trying to) was just additional motivation.

This is how we got to the siege talk. If Ramsay was outnumbered and saw he didn't have the advantage and retreated to Winterfell, there may have been a chance for him to bargain for his own life by handing over Rickon and the Castle and he would have been allowed to leave safely. In the scenario that played out, yeah there was no chance Rickon lived.

Jon was only convinced to fight when Rickon was brought up. He seriously gave no fucks, he was "done with fighting". It was in episode 3 I believe. Jon was fighting for Rickon first, to take back Winterfell and rally the North were secondary.

 

[Cobrabit]

As we saw in earlier episodes, Jon had a difficult time rallying all of the houses in the north to his side and knew that he would need all of them to take on the WW. As such, taking back Winterfell was needed to prove to the other houses that the Starks are indeed 'back' and can unify the entire north.

While another large motivation for him was to rescue his brother, Jon knows who is the real threat and everyone is dead if he can't stop the WW.

Most of the north still don't believe the WW are back, but at least they now believe in Jon and can rally behind him as the King in the North to lead them to that fight.

 

[chf]

Yeah, she gets full credit because in this scenario she did win the battle with the Vale swooping in last minute. But she apologizes because she knew she should have told Jon about the army sooner. She could have saved thousands of lives, including her brother's life, if they laid siege. We're getting way off track here lol, but a siege of Winterfell wouldn't have been a clear advantage for the castle squad. At one point in the show, Roose said they had only a year's worth of provisions if they needed to hold out (I repeat myself). Then throw in the fact that Jon's army is full of Northerners who know how to survive in the snow, and fight in the snow, and have allies. I could imagine other Northern houses who stayed out of it (Glover, Manderly etc.) would join the cause to even further strengthen Jon's army. Davos even said Ramsay will come out and meet Jon because the other North Houses are watching.

To get really specific, House Umber (their castle is Last Hearth) and House Karstark (their castle is Karhold) and the Dreadfort are all located in the North East section. Jon's army originated from the West and South. Supply lines could be easily routed into friendly territory, and easily cutoff in enemy territory. They would be well provisioned. House Cerwyn is located close to Winterfell, it could allow people to stay inside for a time.

My point is, yeah Sansa won. But she could have saved a lot more lives if she spat up about the Vale army. At least there would be a chance to save her brother too.

If we're talking book, then this goes out the window 100%. But I thought we were talking the show here.

Agree to disagree. I only bring up the book in the sense that GRRM will have the luxury to confirm the details that the show doesn't have time to get into. So what was the situation with outriders and scouts, and how easy would it have been for the Vale to get close to Winterfell.

IMO, a year's worth of provisions would be about 10 times a much as they'd need to win vs the Wildings/cobbled together Northerners. You say that the North would know how to survive. On what? Why would those other houses join a seige in Winter when their own houses are struggling to get enough food to last the winter? (remember the winter lasts YEARS). So what are these other Northern Houses going to provision the alliance with? If they were onside, they'd be THERE already. Remember, during the fall, all the men are off with Robb Stark, and not planting.

Would the Northern alliance last longer than Stannis did in the cold? Sure. Still have to eat something. Still have to build seige engines and towers.

I don't agree either that Ramsay would come out from the walls if he sees the Vale forces. If that were true, then Jon's gambit to get him to fight 1 on 1 would have worked. He fought because he was confident he could win. He's a bully. He hunts WOMEN with dogs. Does he care what his reputation is? Nope.

He figured he'd get the easy win, and if he sees the rested well provisioned, well armoured (most important WELL HORSED) Vale, he retreats within Winterfell, and starts eating that years worth of provisions. Six weeks tops, the Wildlings desert, and eventually it's Jon and Lady Mormont huddling in a lean-to outside Winterfell's gates.

Could Sansa have saved some lives? Sure. But that's not how wars were fought. There was no way that Ramsay was letting Rickon live. Sansa knew that. He was as good as dead the minute Ramsay got his hands on him.

Sansa did what a male general would be applauded for. Jon gave her the credit, because she won that battle. End of story.

 

[juliansteed]

There is no time for a siege. Jon knows full well that the White Walkers are on their way. Laying siege to a castle under these circumstances would be counter-intuitive.

In fact I do wonder why Jon bothered to retake Winterfell at all. Wouldn't it have been better to just rally the north elsewhere in preparation for the White Walkers coming south and let Ramsey hold Winterfell in ignorance until the WWs run him over like a semitruck?

That's where things could have gotten interesting with the negotiations if they had the Vale forces and appeared willing to have a siege if necessary. Jon absolutely would not have wanted to have a year long siege because of the White Walkers, but as far as we know White Walkers are the furthest thing from Ramsay's mind. I don't even think it's a matter of him not believing in them as much as he probably heard very little about the threat. He likely had no idea how much of a concern it was for Jon. So to Ramsay, it would appear that Jon was negotiating from a stronger position that he actually was, which could help Jon bluff him if necessary.

We also saw last season that Ramsay is not the type that would just want to sit in a castle for a year, but he doesn't seem like the type to surrender either. He's nota great military strategist but would he actually meet Jon's army (knights of Vale included) in the field if they were badly outnumbered?

I guess we'll never know how things would have played out but it is interesting to speculate.

 

[potzer25]

if you think Sansa is anything more than a still pawn...you are mistaken. the only good thing she did was write a letter to littlefinger...and then failed to let anyone know that more people are coming, thus getting thousands killed and letting littlefinger save the day. she isn't operating a higher strategic level than others. the only lesson she has learned is not to trust people that have betrayed her (ramsay, littlefinger, etc.) - which is significant character growth for her but still insignificant.

 

[Gatorchip]

Agree to disagree. I only bring up the book in the sense that GRRM will have the luxury to confirm the details that the show doesn't have time to get into. So what was the situation with outriders and scouts, and how easy would it have been for the Vale to get close to Winterfell.

IMO, a year's worth of provisions would be about 10 times a much as they'd need to win vs the Wildings/cobbled together Northerners. You say that the North would know how to survive. On what? Why would those other houses join a seige in Winter when their own houses are struggling to get enough food to last the winter? (remember the winter lasts YEARS). So what are these other Northern Houses going to provision the alliance with? If they were onside, they'd be THERE already. Remember, during the fall, all the men are off with Robb Stark, and not planting.

Would the Northern alliance last longer than Stannis did in the cold? Sure. Still have to eat something. Still have to build seige engines and towers.

I don't agree either that Ramsay would come out from the walls if he sees the Vale forces. If that were true, then Jon's gambit to get him to fight 1 on 1 would have worked. He fought because he was confident he could win. He's a bully. He hunts WOMEN with dogs. Does he care what his reputation is? Nope.

He figured he'd get the easy win, and if he sees the rested well provisioned, well armoured (most important WELL HORSED) Vale, he retreats within Winterfell, and starts eating that years worth of provisions. Six weeks tops, the Wildlings desert, and eventually it's Jon and Lady Mormont huddling in a lean-to outside Winterfell's gates.

Could Sansa have saved some lives? Sure. But that's not how wars were fought. There was no way that Ramsay was letting Rickon live. Sansa knew that. He was as good as dead the minute Ramsay got his hands on him.

Sansa did what a male general would be applauded for. Jon gave her the credit, because she won that battle. End of story.

She won the battle by promising her banged up hole if a man could come save the day? What general are we talking about here? She didn't do shit other than entrusting a snake.

 

[juliansteed]

if you think Sansa is anything more than a still pawn...you are mistaken. the only good thing she did was write a letter to littlefinger...and then failed to let anyone know that more people are coming, thus getting thousands killed and letting littlefinger save the day. she isn't operating a higher strategic level than others. the only lesson she has learned is not to trust people that have betrayed her (ramsay, littlefinger, etc.) - which is significant character growth for her but still insignificant.

Agreed! Ever since she lied 2 seasons ago to keep Littlefinger from being thrown through the Moon Door then followed it up by showing off her new black outfit, people have been over-estimating her big time. I think she has potential to be a bigger player but so far hasn't really proven herself. Whatever game she might think she is playing with Littlefinger, he's likely one step ahead of her. What he revealed to Sansa last episode isn't what he really wants. It's all part of his long con and he wants Sansa to believe that's what he wants.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Sansa needs to stop fartin' around and just take off her clothes. We already lost Dormer and stupid HBO cheated us out of her atonement walk for Christ sake!

 

[wildturkey]

Couple of things... One, how do you cook a pie and get the finger nails to be soft and not crunchy? Two, I call Shenanigans on the implications from the Citadel that winter is here, it will be at least 10 more months before it arrives.

Marinate overnight and then cook on low setting over indirect heat. High, direct heat causes crisping

 

[chf]

So why'd Jon say she won the battle?

I swear you guys just delete info that doesn't support your argument.

You think she's a skeezy biatch, great. She still used HER influence to get LF and the Knights of the Vale to Winterfell, which turned the tide of the battle.

Does anyone actually think she isn't aware LF is playing her? LF SOLD HER to Bolton. The Bolton that raped her and tortured her.

She can have LF killed the moment she decides to. She just tells her golden Robin that LF threw milk-Mommy out the Moon Door.

I underestimate Sansa? Maybe. You guys certainly underestimate her.

Anyone else remember the convo between Cersei and her a few seasons back? Where she tells her to use the tools at her disposal?

Who is leading whom between her and LF?

Like I say, we'll see.

 

[Innermind]

The finale was Girl Power to the max!

Dany, Yara, Ellaria & the Sand Snakes, Olenna, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Lady Mormont. And although not part of the finale, let's not forget Brienne. I suppose we could even include Melisandre, Gilly, and Missandei.




The females be takin' over Westeros!

 

[UVA_Guy81]

Or they weren't really IN the pie at all.

But hey, what fun would that be?


Pan up from the pie, with a piece already cut out of it, as Walder spoons a piece into his mouth....

I wonder if she got Hot Pie to make the Frey pie.

 

[UVA_Guy81]

I have been wondering this as well.

The fleet has approx 100 ships from the Iron Isles and a few hundred ships from the slavers (??). Maybe the scene we saw was after they stopped in Dorne to pick up Verys and the Snakes and Tyrells added their forces to the fleet?

If they stopped in Dorne, why not disembark there and conduct a land-invasion? The Unsullied and Dothraki would be worthless on ships.

I figure that the Tyrell's can march towards Kings Landing since they supposedly have a good sized army. With both the the Dorne fleet and the Targaryan fleet coming from the sides, trapping them in Kings Landing as well. Also, couldn't they possibly try to starve them out of Kings Landing since Lady Olenna mentioned something earlier in the season to the High Sparrow about how if they cut off the food they've been providing, they'd likely starve in no time?

 

[juliansteed]

So why'd Jon say she won the battle?

I swear you guys just delete info that doesn't support your argument.

You think she's a skeezy biatch, great. She still used HER influence to get LF and the Knights of the Vale to Winterfell, which turned the tide of the battle.

Does anyone actually think she isn't aware LF is playing her? LF SOLD HER to Bolton. The Bolton that raped her and tortured her.

She can have LF killed the moment she decides to. She just tells her golden Robin that LF threw milk-Mommy out the Moon Door.

I underestimate Sansa? Maybe. You guys certainly underestimate her.

Anyone else remember the convo between Cersei and her a few seasons back? Where she tells her to use the tools at her disposal?

Who is leading whom between her and LF?

Like I say, we'll see.

She won the battle because the Knights of the Vale fell into her lap because of who she is and because Littlefinger has some use for her. She's always had some political value, which is why she's been married twice and engaged to three others at various points. It wasn't any great character development that led to her winning the war. Had she played her cards right, she could have had the knights of the Vale from the beginning possibly without Littlefinger. Even if one wants to make the argument that they were better off having the knights arrive later, well fair enough. It may have worked out better that way but it clearly wasn't because that's how she planned it. She begged and pleaded for Jon to wait for more help to arrive, and she obviously had no way of knowing exactly when the Knights of the Vale would arrive. At best she fluked out big time. At worst she cost many lives, including her brothers.

As I said, I think she has potential and could become a player but I've yet to see very much. That's not entirely her fault though, She hasn't really had much opportunity but I think that's going to change next season. I have a hard time thinking she is going to outplay Littlefinger. She's learned enough not to trust him but he knows this, and is almost certainly one or more steps ahead of her.