Game of Thrones

[Bridgeburner]

Right, absolutely fueled by regret. Regret at pushing kids out of windows to protect his sister that only 'loves' him for what he can do for her.

My only point was that Ned, if he'd have lived would have been equally well drawn, and GRRM leaves lots of little clues as to how he wasn't by any means perfect. AGAIN, he's still a good guy, just not perfect.

Who in the books so far most closely meets that ideal?

I'd say 2, Barristan and Brienne. Both of them have difficulty meeting their duty by staying true to the ideal. Both are aware of this. And do it anyway.

I'm not making the claim that Ned was perfect by any means, only that what he did at the Tower of Joy wasn't dishonorable. If Ned was fleshed out as perfect he would have been an absolute bore. I think his reputation versus the actual Ned is what was used to flesh him out more than anything.

I could see Brienne. And it's probably not a coincidence that I think she's the most boring prominent character in the entire book. Less so in the show for some reason. I don't feel like I know enough about Barristan to say that about him.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

So, that shot of Jon facing the cavalry charge... That wasn't CGI or green screen. He was really in a field facing that charge of horses.

All 40 of them.... A bit mundane compared to Lawrence of Arabia where they had the Arab charge of 150 camels and 450 horses through the Turkish camp at Aqaba.


But real horses none the less.

 

[Tharvot]

And further... was Ned Stark even a knight? I don't recall ever reading that to be honest. he acted like it. For sure. But at that time weren't they just young lords in the land?

He was not a knight, just the Lord of Winterfell after his father and brother were killed off. But, honor is a big deal for him.

 

[chf]

I'm not making the claim that Ned was perfect by any means, only that what he did at the Tower of Joy wasn't dishonorable. If Ned was fleshed out as perfect he would have been an absolute bore. I think his reputation versus the actual Ned is what was used to flesh him out more than anything.

I could see Brienne. And it's probably not a coincidence that I think she's the most boring prominent character in the entire book. Less so in the show for some reason. I don't feel like I know enough about Barristan to say that about him.

So then why the problem with me saying that Ned cut a corner and behaved badly at the TOJ?

 

[Bridgeburner]

So then why the problem with me saying that Ned cut a corner and behaved badly at the TOJ?

All I said was that I didn't believe he acted dishonorably at the Tower of Joy.

 

[Innermind]

 

[juliansteed]

You did see the way the wights were crawling on the walls and ceiling of that tunnel like insects right?

No mountaintop fortress would be safe from them. They'll scale that like they were walking along the ground.

Sure, but that's not what makes it so impenetrable. The Eyrie can't be breached my any army, living or dead, except perhaps one that has dragons. I won't go into all the details as to why not (mostly because I forget the details), but if I remember correctly, the route leading up to it is very tricky and narrow. That's without archers shooting down at you. The show didn't really make this as clear as the books do. They just had some sort of mention about how it was "Impregnable".

Even if it's not 100% wight-proof, I maintain my original claim that's it's probably one of the safest spots. Some might think Riverrun might be safe but not after the White Walkers freeze the rivers.

 

[Gatorchip]

Sure, but that's not what makes it so impenetrable. The Eyrie can't be breached my any army, living or dead, except perhaps one that has dragons. I won't go into all the details as to why not (mostly because I forget the details), but if I remember correctly, the route leading up to it is very tricky and narrow. That's without archers shooting down at you. The show didn't really make this as clear as the books do. They just had some sort of mention about how it was "Impregnable".

Even if it's not 100% wight-proof, I maintain my original claim that's it's probably one of the safest spots. Some might think Riverrun might be safe but not after the White Walkers freeze the rivers.

What made it difficult to attack was the narrow path forcing people go to single file... but that only applies to people who can't climb walls and upside down through tunnels.

 

[juliansteed]

What made it difficult to attack was the narrow path forcing people go to single file... but that only applies to people who can't climb walls and upside down through tunnels.

So yeah, like I said it might not be 100% wigt-proof but I'd still prefer my chances there than pretty much anywhere else in mainland Westeros. Not by myself of course. Would need enough archers and other men to drop other burning items on them, but you'd likely need a lot more anywhere else.

 

[juliansteed]

I heard this possibility too. And I hope it doesn't happen.

How much time has passed since that moment? I thought it had been a while but then again I think at least one week is all we have specifically been told.

Well since then Theon had time to help her escape, find a way to the Iron Islands without a horse, boat, or any friends in the North, arrive at Pike to meet his sister, attend the Kingsmoot with her after their father is murdered, escape from their uncle, sail 100 ships from the north-west part of Westeros around the southern coast and then across the narrow-sea, take a pit-stop in Volantis so his sister could get some action, before continuing on to Mereen and arranging an alliance with Daenerys. In the amount of time it would take Missandei to do the introductions and read all of Daenerys' titles to the Greyjoys alone, should be enough time for Sansa to start to show.

 

[chf]

All I said was that I didn't believe he acted dishonorably at the Tower of Joy.

Agree to disagree time. I guess we're each putting differing weights on what 'dishonorably' means.

 

[juliansteed]

What I really want to know is if Jon Snow is actually Ned Stark's son or not.

.......and if it turns out that he is not Ned's son, does that mean that he can start boning Sansa?

This is GoT we're talking about here. What does it matter if they are related or not?

 

[Edonidd]

And further... was Ned Stark even a knight? I don't recall ever reading that to be honest. he acted like it. For sure. But at that time weren't they just young lords in the land?

I believe they talked about that in the books too. There were hardly any knights in the North, because the Knights were annointed members of the church or some such. They had to be sworn to the seven. And most/many northerners, especially among the nobilty and old families, were still worshippers of the Old Gods and prayer to their trees not to the seven. They did not have churches and temples they just had the Godswood.

Not that the northerers didn't have horses or know how to swing swords. But that is only part of being a knight.

And yes that includes Ned Stark (and Jon Snow now) as being very representative of the North.

 

[chf]

I believe they talked about that in the books too. There were hardly any knights in the North, because the Knights were annointed members of the church or some such. They had to be sworn to the seven. And most/many northerners, especially among the nobilty and old families, were still worshippers of the Old Gods and prayer to their trees not to the seven. They did not have churches and temples they just had the Godswood.

Not that the northerers didn't have horses or know how to swing swords. But that is only part of being a knight.

And yes that includes Ned Stark (and Jon Snow now) as being very representative of the North.

I do believe you're 100% right on this one Ed. (and I'm not even fucking with you)

Did the ol' google-fu, and the north and the Iron Islands both don't have knights.

Ran across this gem of a quote by the Dog.

"Honor, glory...lies to make idiot boys want knighthood and idiot girls spread their legs for it. Let me tell you what makes a knight: killing. Either enough men, or the right man."
―Sandor Clegane

It would be interesting to ask George about it though, because wiki also had this quote as the pledge Knights take. The bolded is interesting, and I guess covers the few from the North or I.I's that are knighted.

Knight: "I offer my services [Lord's name]. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours if need be. I swear it by the Old Gods and the New."
Lord: "And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth, and meat and mead at my table. And I pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you dishonor. I swear it by the Old Gods and the New. Arise."[2]

 

[chf]

So I just finished listening to the best theory I've heard yet on why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army.

According to the dialogue in EP #9, Ramsay had a 2 to 1 numerical advantage. So he meets Jon and his Northern scraps and wildlings out on the field of battle.

If scouts report back that there's suddenly an extra few thousand calvary and heavily armored foot troops, then Bolton retreats back into Winterfell, raises the portcullis, prepares the trebuchets, and lights Wun-wun on fire as soon as he lumbers too close to the walls. It takes months minimum for Jon to lay a seige, with winter coming on and few supplies. Jon loses.

So, Sansa hatches her plan, even hinting to Jon that there's no way that Bolton is going to let Rickon live. Bolton sees the numerical superiority intact, and comes out to play his longbow games with Rickon.

As soon as the armies are fully engaged, LF and the Vale ride for the battle and sweep up the reserve and what's left of the Boltons and Umbers.

Sacrificing the dead Northmen and wildlings to ensure victory over Bolton and getting her revenge. Cold-blooded, and effective, Sansa plays the winning hand. Not to marry LF, or to screw stuff up, but to achieve victory the only way they could, by complete surprise. Nobody could give it away, because nobody knew except her.

She's now a player in her own right.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

This is GoT we're talking about here. What does it matter ......?

Repaired.

Honestly, I love the show, read the books, but in the end........ A decent TV show in the grand scheme of things.

For lack of something better, it doesn't even have Bob Saget....

 

[wildturkey]

Out of curiosity. Why not have the Red Witch rezz Reckon? Technically, he would be the ruling Stark in the area.

Cuz R'hllor ain't down for that. He ain't got time to raise no pussy who don't know how to zig zag

 

[TheRangerDude]

This is GoT we're talking about here. What does it matter if they are related or not?

At the risk of prolonging the shit storm... the Stark code of honor?

 

[WizardHawk]

Out of curiosity. Why not have the Red Witch rezz Reckon? Technically, he would be the ruling Stark in the area.

She doesn't seem the same after Stannis got wiped out. Had him sacrifice his daughter and his entire army was slaughtered anyway. She went through self doubt and hasn't really taken any real initiative since. She had to be talked into even trying with Jon as it was and didn't appear to have any real faith it would work.

She said in that episode that it was because of the fire gods bidding that he was brought back, not hers. And used that to say she couldn't follow his wishes and not try to bring him back again if he fell in that battle if it was the fire gods will.

It's not like she runs around deciding who lives and who dies. The gods clearly didn't favor Stannis and at least once they did Jon, but Rickon didn't have the same favor.

 

[jakedog56]

This is GoT we're talking about here. What does it matter if they are related or not?

True. But typically the ince$t is left to the "bad guys". The "good guys" usually stick to prostitutes.....or something like this happens......