Game of Thrones

[flyerhawk]

Cool ep. Jon is a terrible battlefield commander. Not so tough without your Wall, are you boy?!?!

I think Jon is a pretty good commander. Castle Black and Hardhome were both pretty challenging situation. He's really bad at controlling his emotions when family is involved though.

 

[jakedog56]

Gandalf never has to make hard choices. Ned Stark (and every other protagonist in the novels) does. And sure, according to the 'rules' Dayne's death WAS dishonorable. Dayne was following the rules like he was supposed to. He was the ideal that all other knights were to strive for. So while he may have been following questionable orders by his King, he was following orders.

He beat Ned and his five in straight up combat, until Reed backstabbed him. That isn't Stark's absurd honor system, it's the KNIGHTLY CODE. The one that Brienne tries to follow. THEN, he doesn't offer Dayne respite, he just outright kills him. Just because they're on the side we cheer for doesn't change what they did.

And I think you're putting too fine a point on 'bragging.' No, the honorable Ned Stark would never 'BRAG' about defeating Dayne. But Bran says it in that scene. 'I've heard the story hundreds of times...' Ned allowed that to be the narrative. He never set the record straight.

I just re-watched the scene and while this may be quibbling the point a bit there are a couple of things that should be pointed out.

On the show, it was Arthur Dayne and 1 more Kings Guard vs. Stark, Reed and 4 lackeys.

The Kings Guard drew on the boys and instigated the combat. Ned had come only to rescue his sister.

Arthur Dayne and his man are fully armored, professionally trained, and grown men taking on essentially 6 boys in leathers with training but not to the extent that the Kings Guard had.

Two of Ned's lackeys were killed immediately in the fight. This left it as 4 against 2 at that point.

It did end up 4 on 1, Arthur kills 2 and Reed was down, Ned is disarmed, and then Reed saves Stark by plunging a knife through Dayne's chest.

Was it a "dishonorable" killing? Not in my opinion. Arthur knew he was the much, much, much better fighter. He knew that his king was dead, but he still instigated the battle when he could have easily walked away. He fully expected to win. He had no qualms about killing an unarmed boy who had just come to save his sister and was laying on the ground in front of him.

I will not argue that it was an "honorable" victory by Ned, but I think that the point was that Ned seemed to feel guilty for the fact that he was saved by a stab in the back. I think that it was a bit of a defining moment in his character development and that this event might have pushed him even more to take the honorable path more often in the future, which was eventually his undoing.

Why didn't Ned tell the truth later on? I think that it was to provide strength to his image as a lord and leader. If the truth was out it would have made him appear weaker, so telling it falsely was a bit of a necessary evil.

That is my take on it. Honorable? No. Essential to Ned's character and his eventual downfall? Yes.

 

[night]

That'll be a long boat ride.

The wine will be flowing.

 

[night]

Cool ep. Jon is a terrible battlefield commander. Not so tough without your Wall, are you boy?!?!

Jon didn't do a whole lot of commanding during the battle. Ser Davos was the one giving the orders most of battle and the way it played out made sense considering he isn't an accomplished military mind.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Oh great. Now I'm reading that because of that "I'm now a part of you" line before Ramsey gets chomped, people are claiming he put a Bolton in Sansa's oven. And that she'll keep it because the kid would have blood rights to everything Bolton. Whatever....

I heard this possibility too. And I hope it doesn't happen.

How much time has passed since that moment? I thought it had been a while but then again I think at least one week is all we have specifically been told.

 

[Bridgeburner]

So. Finally watched the episode last night since HBONow was down during the premier.

Am I the only one who feels like a 7 year old boy watching Superman save Lois Lane when the dragons come on screen? I clap. I giggle. I even pee a little. I love it. Even if I end up saying out loud "this is too expensive for TV! How are they doing this??!!??

The battle was awesome. Loved it. Loved the end of Ramsey too.

I still worry they are rushing things with what, 16 episodes left? We'll see. Martin is dead to me so this show will finish the story for me.

 

[Bridgeburner]

And the Ned Stark/Dayne thing...there was nothing dishonorable with that fight or Ned's recounting of it in the limited exposure we had to it. Fair fights are for people who've never fought. They're a myth. Here and in Westeros.

 

[chf]

He can attempt to rescue Rickon. That's fine. Its really really dumb to charge an army all by himself after Rickon is dead though. It's not like Ramsay was even that good. He was firing his archers into his own men for goodness sake but Ramsay looks smart by default because Jon did everything wrong that you could possibly do.

He didn't charge any further after he got to Rickon. The Bolton cavalry charged him.

Firing arrows and hitting some of your own troops was SOP. So was hanging certain parts of your line out to dry knowing they'd all die, to gain a tactical advantage. Soldiers are EXPENDABLE. Use a chess metaphor if you like. Pawns are expendable.

People have watched too many sanitized medieval battle scenes I guess.

But you're on point with one part though. Tywin Lannister would have let his brother die in the field, and waited for the other army to charge.

 

[chf]

I just re-watched the scene and while this may be quibbling the point a bit there are a couple of things that should be pointed out.

On the show, it was Arthur Dayne and 1 more Kings Guard vs. Stark, Reed and 4 lackeys.

The Kings Guard drew on the boys and instigated the combat. Ned had come only to rescue his sister.

Arthur Dayne and his man are fully armored, professionally trained, and grown men taking on essentially 6 boys in leathers with training but not to the extent that the Kings Guard had.

Two of Ned's lackeys were killed immediately in the fight. This left it as 4 against 2 at that point.

It did end up 4 on 1, Arthur kills 2 and Reed was down, Ned is disarmed, and then Reed saves Stark by plunging a knife through Dayne's chest.

Was it a "dishonorable" killing? Not in my opinion. Arthur knew he was the much, much, much better fighter. He knew that his king was dead, but he still instigated the battle when he could have easily walked away. He fully expected to win. He had no qualms about killing an unarmed boy who had just come to save his sister and was laying on the ground in front of him.

I will not argue that it was an "honorable" victory by Ned, but I think that the point was that Ned seemed to feel guilty for the fact that he was saved by a stab in the back. I think that it was a bit of a defining moment in his character development and that this event might have pushed him even more to take the honorable path more often in the future, which was eventually his undoing.

Why didn't Ned tell the truth later on? I think that it was to provide strength to his image as a lord and leader. If the truth was out it would have made him appear weaker, so telling it falsely was a bit of a necessary evil.

That is my take on it. Honorable? No. Essential to Ned's character and his eventual downfall? Yes.

Your conclusions I agree with 100%, and that was my point from the beginning, not that Ned is evil (he's not) but that he's flawed and human

I have a few things I can't agree with in your assertions however. Dayne is portrayed in the books as THE model of a knight, and THE model of a member of the Kingsguard. He's the John Wayne/Lancelot figure of Westeros. He's the guy that Barristan Selmy admired and looked up to.

He was charged by his King to protect Lyanna Stark. That was his mission, so according to his code, he could not walk away from that combat any more than he could stop breathing voluntarily. Follow orders. That's job #1. Doesn't matter if they're bad orders. (this is the hangup that The Hound has with knights, because they DO follow bad orders that are contradictory to their code - forinstance protecting the weak and helpless)

So in the scene Ned asks 'Rheagar is dead, why weren't you there to protect your prince?'

Dayne answers 'He wanted us here.' (orders)

Yes Dayne draws his swords first, but he doesn't leap to attack. He doesn't gain any advantage by that. This is all very ritualized and formalized. He waits for Stark's group to attack.

You're misleading with the numbers also, at least with how the battle went. Stark quickly dispatches the other Kingsguard member. Then it's 4 on 1. Dayne beats them all, except of course he doesn't finish off Reed. Oops.

You're being VERY descriptive with 'stabbed him in the chest,' describing how Reed wounds Dayne. He comes at him from behind with a dirk, and since Dayne is wearing armour, he stabs him in the gap between helmet and backplate. That dirk blade you see is coming out the FRONT, after being stabbed in from the BACK.

But as I say, I agree 100% with your conclusion. That dishonorable act is a fundamental brick in the wall that becomes the eventual Lord Stark of Winterfell.

 

[chf]

And the Ned Stark/Dayne thing...there was nothing dishonorable with that fight or Ned's recounting of it in the limited exposure we had to it. Fair fights are for people who've never fought. They're a myth. Here and in Westeros.

Not according to the code of knighthood. And of COURSE they're a myth, they're a standard that the knight is SUPPOSED to live up to. A standard that GRRM rubs the readers nose in over and over and over again.

What's all the stuff with Jamie filling in the white book for? Of him worrying about what his legacy will be, what future members of the Kingsguard will read about him on those pages?

Why does Ned Stark act upon his honor, if there's no such thing as fairness?

C'mon now, I know you've read the books.

 

[Bridgeburner]

Not according to the code of knighthood. And of COURSE they're a myth, they're a standard that the knight is SUPPOSED to live up to. A standard that GRRM rubs the readers nose in over and over and over again.

What's all the stuff with Jamie filling in the white book for? Of him worrying about what his legacy will be, what future members of the Kingsguard will read about him on those pages?

Why does Ned Stark act upon his honor, if there's no such thing as fairness?

C'mon now, I know you've read the books.

I've read them. I just didn't insert the same assumptions you've inserted. Show me the knights code of honor from GoT that applies directly to that situation. Or you know, keep beating your dead horse lol.

 

[Tharvot]

Jon did exactly what Sansa warned him about, and didn't realize it till his brother was dead right in front of him and he was standing there alone right in range of the Bolton bowmen. Could have been the end of the battle right then and there.

There's been way too much mention of wildfire caches hidden around Kings Landing for Cersei to not burn that motha down, right? So zombie Gregor hopefully rips some heads off and High Sparrow Bernie gets roasted. Pretty good makings of a season finale if you ask me.

 

[PatsFan2003]

He fell right into Ramsey's trap. But then again, what the hell was he supposed to do, watch his brother die without trying to help him get across that field.

Which is why his sister tried to tell him his brother will die, so he wouldn't be drawn into traps like that. But noooooo.

Their original plan (ala Cannae) might have worked if Snow hadn't abandoned it in the 1st two minutes of the battle in favor of his army following him into a sure trap...


Fortunately the good guys won anyways..

Yes, Ramsey's plan was pretty damn spectacular based on his intel on the strength and size of the opposition, but he also had a massive advantage with numbers and having the high ground, but his army and himself ended up owned like a bitch in the end and that's all that matters in war. Now he's doogie doodoo. Good night.

 

[Gatorchip]

Ramsay is still alive. The camera panned away as he hid under a garbage dumpster.

 

[chf]

I've read them. I just didn't insert the same assumptions you've inserted. Show me the knights code of honor from GoT that applies directly to that situation. Or you know, keep beating your dead horse lol.

S

So why the big confab before the fight. Why'd Dayne draw but not immediately leap to attack? Answer my question about why Jamie Lannister worries about his legacy in the White Book? Why IS THERE a white book?

WTF dude, yeah, GRRM wrote out the entire code of Knightly conduct in an appendice in Book two.

You been hanging out in Politics threads here, or you just being an asshole today?

 

[jakedog56]

Jon did exactly what Sansa warned him about, and didn't realize it till his brother was dead right in front of him and he was standing there alone right in range of the Bolton bowmen. Could have been the end of the battle right then and there.

There's been way too much mention of wildfire caches hidden around Kings Landing for Cersei to not burn that motha down, right? So zombie Gregor hopefully rips some heads off and High Sparrow Bernie gets roasted. Pretty good makings of a season finale if you ask me.

I thought that all of the wildfire caches were used by Tyrion in the Battle of Blackwater and that they do not exist anymore (or at least not nearly as much as previously).

 

[Superbelt]

Lucky for him, he controls the Eyrie. Aside from the Iron Islands, that's probably the safest place to hide out if the White Walkers and their army of the dead are running around throughout the 7 Kingdoms. Assuming they hate lots of supplies that is.

You did see the way the wights were crawling on the walls and ceiling of that tunnel like insects right?

No mountaintop fortress would be safe from them. They'll scale that like they were walking along the ground.

 

[Superbelt]

Oh great. Now I'm reading that because of that "I'm now a part of you" line before Ramsey gets chomped, people are claiming he put a Bolton in Sansa's oven. And that she'll keep it because the kid would have blood rights to everything Bolton. Whatever....

Nah. It's been months since her escape. She would be showing by now. It would be an issue.

Also, with the Bolton's wiped out, it falls to the Starks to assign the lands to someone else. Sansa doesn't need a Bolton heir. She can just give Dreadfort to Tormund, or someone else.

 

[Tharvot]

I thought that all of the wildfire caches were used by Tyrion in the Battle of Blackwater and that they do not exist anymore (or at least not nearly as much as previously).

Cersei had Qyburn looking for something an episode or 2 ago and he confirmed the "rumors were true". I assumed that she had him looking for wildfire.

 

[Bridgeburner]

S

So why the big confab before the fight. Why'd Dayne draw but not immediately leap to attack? Answer my question about why Jamie Lannister worries about his legacy in the White Book? Why IS THERE a white book?

WTF dude, yeah, GRRM wrote out the entire code of Knightly conduct in an appendice in Book two.

You been hanging out in Politics threads here, or you just being an asshole today?

An asshole? Lol. I'm not even being confrontational. Just pointing out that I think you're reading too much into it. Did the wind ride up your garter and chap your pee flaps today or something? Haha.

Why do you think Jamie cares about the white book lol? He's called the Kingslayer. He's known to be a man of no honor. Duh?

Yes. There's a code knights follow. No. I don't think it's as important as you do nor do I think the circumstances that surrounded the situation Ned was in demand he follow it. He needed to reach his sister. At all costs. And I don't think that reflects poorly on him at all. If anything it shows him in a better light. And the praise he heaped on Dayne in the years to come further reflect that IMHO. Or maybe I'm just an asshole right? LOL.