Game of Thrones

[flyerhawk]

He beat Ned and his five in straight up combat, until Reed backstabbed him. That isn't Stark's absurd honor system, it's the KNIGHTLY CODE. The one that Brienne tries to follow. THEN, he doesn't offer Dayne respite, he just outright kills him. Just because they're on the side we cheer for doesn't change what they did.

Except that it was Howland Reed that did the stabbing not Ned. So Ned's dishonor would only be in reporting that he defeated him.

And I think you're putting too fine a point on 'bragging.' No, the honorable Ned Stark would never 'BRAG' about defeating Dayne. But Bran says it in that scene. 'I've heard the story hundreds of times...' Ned allowed that to be the narrative. He never set the record straight.

GRRM spends a shvt ton of time on this concept. Why is it that Jamie Lannister never tells anyone about the wildfire under KL? Why doesn't he EXPLAIN how he saved the city? Why does he allow the narrative to be that he's a kingslayer and an oath-breaker?

For honor.

GRRM loves his irony.

Certainly GRRM likes to ridicule the concept of honor which caused all sorts of problems in the source material for his stories, the medieval Europe period.

 

[chf]

Except that it was Howland Reed that did the stabbing not Ned. So Ned's dishonor would only be in reporting that he defeated him.

Bran says it in the scene. 'My father defeated him.' Not 'Howland Reed defeated him.' And again, you're ignoring the part where Ned finished him off. Against the rules for honorable knights.

Certainly GRRM likes to ridicule the concept of honor which caused all sorts of problems in the source material for his stories, the medieval Europe period.

He doesn't ridicule it at all. He points out over and over again how incredibly rare and precious it is.

Can you expand on the problems in the source material? Not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Tharvot]

Awesome awesome episode. The shots where men were literally suffocating under the weight of everyone else crushed into them were really difficult to watch. I was starting to get upset because for a moment it looked like they were really going to let Jon die, and I thought Tormund was toast for sure. Glad he's still kicking because there's still hope that he can get some of that Brienne ass.

Going forward, I really don't see any way Jon leaves Winterfell to head south. He won't ask the few surviving wildlings to come with him. Sansa and the Knights of the Vale might head southward to deal with the Freys, but I'm not sure what the endgame would be for that. I'm sure Littlefinger has a plan...he always does.

The final scenes are going to be wrapping up the Tower of Joy and the Night's King bringing down the wall. Bookmarket.

 

[flyerhawk]

Bran says it in the scene. 'My father defeated him.' Not 'Howland Reed defeated him.' And again, you're ignoring the part where Ned finished him off. Against the rules for honorable knights.

Wait, are we talking show canon or book canon?

He doesn't ridicule it at all. He points out over and over again how incredibly rare and precious it is.

Can you expand on the problems in the source material? Not sure what you mean by that.

Honor started more than a few wars in 13th-16th century Europe.

 

[flyerhawk]

Going forward, I really don't see any way Jon leaves Winterfell to head south. He won't ask the few surviving wildlings to come with him. Sansa and the Knights of the Vale might head southward to deal with the Freys, but I'm not sure what the endgame would be for that. I'm sure Littlefinger has a plan...he always does.

The final scenes are going to be wrapping up the Tower of Joy and the Night's King bringing down the wall. Bookmarket.

I agree that I can't see any way that Jon is heading south. In fact I think that, given the name of next week's episode, Jon & Co. are likely to park it at Winterfell for a while.

I think Littlefinger has a plan. Not sure he has factored in White Walkers into that plan though.

I would love to see the Freys get their comeuppance. Really long time coming.

 

[chf]

Wait, are we talking show canon or book canon?

Pulling the quotes from the youtube scene I linked upthread. I haven't seen a lot of examples of book canon being changed beyond who does what. Why they do it, has remained pretty consistent. Most editing has been for time.

Honor started more than a few wars in 13th-16th century Europe.

As a guy who's read a lot of history, I think you'd agree that if we dug down we'd find a lot of other motivations, with a patina of 'honor' painted on top of it. No?

It's kind of like saying, 'Oh that war was about religion.'

There's usually more to it than that.

Now to be clear, I imagine that you've read more specifics about that era than I have - I'm going more from a general exposure to history courses where profs start by saying, 'Yeah, all that stuff you've read is bullshit.'

So I'd be open minded to admitting I'm wrong.

 

[Tharvot]

I agree that I can't see any way that Jon is heading south. In fact I think that, given the name of next week's episode, Jon & Co. are likely to park it at Winterfell for a while.

I think Littlefinger has a plan. Not sure he has factored in White Walkers into that plan though.

I would love to see the Freys get their comeuppance. Really long time coming.

Not sure if they really will have the scene or not, but I'd be more than happy to see Littlefinger's smug smile get wiped off his face when he's actually confronted by The Others. Outside of the few who've been at Castle Black, most people in Westeros still think the White Walkers are fairy tales. That "oh shit, they're real?" moment will be golden.

 

[Edonidd]

I don't recall the exact language in the books, but it was hardly like Ned was bragging about killing Dayne. IIRC, he always said that it took 6 of them to kill him. He never claimed it was some one on one duel. And Dayne's death was hardly some dishonorable act using an objective metric. It is only dishonorable using the patented Ned Stark Absurdly Absolute Honor System™.

IMO, GRRM's point with Ned Stark was that Ned's honor code wasn't viable in the world of Westeros. He was too idealistic to survive in a world like that. Ned isn't Gandalf precisely because he puts his honor above doing what's right.

I don't recall exact language either, but I thought it was Ned plus 6 took on 3 Kingsguard. So 7 on 3. In which I don't think anyone thought the extras just sat around and waited their turn. Ned himself I believe pointed out there was a difference between joust and duels and actual fighting. This was actual fighting.

I do believe I remember Ned only talked about Dayne once, and he said something like; "He was the best knight, the greatest swordfighter, and the most honorable man in the 7 kingdoms and if it wasn't for Howland Reed he would have killed me."

I don't think even by his own strict code of honor that he did anything wrong. Definitely not by any other code.

 

[Edonidd]

Couple things bugged me, one Jon letting his army get surrounded, and letting his bowmen join them in the middle of it all, not hanging back and two, Wun Wun without a weapon. A club, a tree, a big spear, something? But, still loved the episode, loved the dragon CGI as well.

What about the Knights of the Vale meeting up with Sansa first? Did they know right where to find her in a land that none of them wrre familiar with? Coming from the North just like Jon's army did? 2 armies getting ready to fight a large battle and neither had any scouts out looking for flanking enemies or anything? A whole army moving undetected all the way to Winterfell?

They brought a whole army stealthily at a gallop into a well patroled area, did it without encountering anyone, and then button-hooked around 2 armies that they were there to save and defeat respectively in order to pick up one girl and then ride in from behind in what should have been the least advantageous position. And that despite Jon's men digging trenches so that the superior army of mounted knights could not flank them.

I mean if you're gonna nit pick at least do it right.

 

[Inquisitor95]

A few thing bothered me:

1. How did Ramsay Bolton become the greatest tactical military commander in all the realms? He was undone by a Deux ex Machina Gandalf/Eomer moment, but he literally did every move flawlessly. Three years running he is the greatest general on the show.

He wasn't. The entire prelude to battle was devoted to Sansa telling Jon not to play Ramsay's games. Don't charge into battle. Make Ramsay come to him, etc. So what does Jon end up doing? Playing Ramsay's games.

2. Why the fuck are the Umbers so loyal to him? He is literally shooting arrows indiscriminantly into the Karstark troops (who at least wanted vengeance from Robb Starks stupidity), but the Umbers dont have that passion. But, they still just march into it...seemingly only a few weeks after a shaky alliance was formed with a former Bastard they barely tolerate.

Thinking they were on the winning side and absolute hatred of Wildlings, which were the bulk of Snow's army.

3. What was the point of not telling Jon Snow about the Eyrie Knights, Sansa? Maybe a couple thousand men don't need to die Sansa. Faced with a few thousand armored Knights, 2000 Wildlings, a Giant, and the rightful heirs to Winterfell...... there is no way that even the stupid Umbars would still fight for Ramsay. They would have turned him over immediately rather than get slaughtered. That blood is on her hands.

I was asking the same question. Brienne asked the same question. She never answered. Littlefinger isn't exactly trustworthy and she didn't know how Jon and the others would react if she let them know.

 

[flyerhawk]

Pulling the quotes from the youtube scene I linked upthread. I haven't seen a lot of examples of book canon being changed beyond who does what. Why they do it, has remained pretty consistent. Most editing has been for time.


As a guy who's read a lot of history, I think you'd agree that if we dug down we'd find a lot of other motivations, with a patina of 'honor' painted on top of it. No?

It's kind of like saying, 'Oh that war was about religion.'

There's usually more to it than that.

Now to be clear, I imagine that you've read more specifics about that era than I have - I'm going more from a general exposure to history courses where profs start by saying, 'Yeah, all that stuff you've read is bullshit.'

So I'd be open minded to admitting I'm wrong.

Well there are rarely simple reasons why people go to war.

As for Ned and Dayne, he does say that he would have died if not for Reed.

 

[RegentDenali]

Also, how about the Legend of Jon Snow?!

Ramsay acknowledged in the parlay that Jon had developed the reputation as one of the best living swordsman. He commanded the defense of the Wall with 100 men against 100,000 Wildlings. He killed a White Walker. He carries a Valyrian steel sword. He was elected as one of the youngest Lord Commanders. He was brought back from death. He led an army outnumbered 3-1 to take back his Father's castle and secure Stark as the Northern power (which is pretty much made up of Vale forces at this point).

What will he do next??? Probably bury Rickon Stark in the Crypts and figure out he's not a Bastard.

He'll be betrayed by little finger and idiot Sansa. Watch. It's already being setup with the Vale armies perfect timing arrival to save the battle and Little Finger and Sansa taking all the glory. He'll also get Jon blamed for Rickons death and losing most of his troops because he started the battle to soon. You knew this crap was coming as soon as Sansa bought little fingers "Jon will want to be king of the north" line when they met in the cottage. Took him less than a minute to have her on the hook for that.

So this is where Jon will be in suffer mode again.

 

[Tharvot]

He'll be betrayed by little finger and idiot Sansa. Watch. It's already being setup with the Vale armies perfect timing arrival to save the battle and Little Finger and Sansa taking all the glory. He'll also get Jon blamed for Rickons death and losing most of his troops because he started the battle to soon. You knew this crap was coming as soon as Sansa bought little fingers "Jon will want to be king of the north" line when they met in the cottage. Took him less than a minute to have her on the hook for that.

So this is where Jon will be in suffer mode again.

I get the feeling that Jon won't have much time to catch his breath. Bran is gonna get to castle black soon and The Others will be fast on his heels. The Wall is gonna come down and then the entire North is going to be in a world of hurt...or so I speculate.

 

[flyerhawk]

He'll be betrayed by little finger and idiot Sansa. Watch. It's already being setup with the Vale armies perfect timing arrival to save the battle and Little Finger and Sansa taking all the glory. He'll also get Jon blamed for Rickons death and losing most of his troops because he started the battle to soon. You knew this crap was coming as soon as Sansa bought little fingers "Jon will want to be king of the north" line when they met in the cottage. Took him less than a minute to have her on the hook for that.

So this is where Jon will be in suffer mode again.

I don't think Jon has any interest in being King of the North. He's got bigger things to worry about.

 

[RegentDenali]

I don't think Jon has any interest in being King of the North. He's got bigger things to worry about.

That won't stop little finger from planting a amazingly perfectly timed trap to make it look like Jon will make a move for it. And make sure Sansa keeps buying it like the mouth breather she is. Here comes marriage #3 for Sansa.

Jon will be forced to return to the wall and little finger will probably try to have him killed along the way. Some crap like that.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Euron is going to place himself as villain number 1, with Ramsay now gone.

I have this feeling that either Dany or Sansa will slowly emerge as the next villain of sorts.

The writers seem infatuated with the strong women leaders. (Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Yara, Red Women, Arya, Sand Snakes, Brienne)

Sansa seems ready to team up with Littlefinger and betray the mopey Jon Snow.

or

The heavy handed foreshadowing of Tyrion comparing her to the Mad King with her lust to destroy seems ready to make Dany a tyrant soon in love with her power.

the show needs another good villain. And the only decent developed characters left all seem to be women

Ramsay was stupid. He was cartoonishly evil and tiresome....never developed much at all.

 

[SFGRTB]

I have this feeling that either Dany or Sansa will slowly emerge as the next villain of sorts.

The writers seem infatuated with the strong women leaders. (Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Yara, Red Women, Arya, Sand Snakes, Brienne)

Sansa seems ready to team up with Littlefinger and betray the mopey Jon Snow.

or

The heavy handed foreshadowing of Tyrion comparing her to the Mad King with her lust to destroy seems ready to make Dany a tyrant soon in love with her power.

the show needs another good villain. And the only decent developed characters left all seem to be women

Ramsay was stupid. He was cartoonishly evil and tiresome....never developed much at all.

Yeah I could see Dany becoming a villain of sorts for a little while when she's blasting through Westros killing and burning everybody. Then she'll turn her attention to the White Walkers realizing they're the big threat and become the hero again.

 

[chf]

And that despite Jon's men digging trenches so that the superior army of mounted knights could not flank them.

They'd left the trenches far behind, remember that whole bit with Jon charging their whole army? The original plan was to make LF come to them (and their trenches)

But hey, maybe I'm just fucking with you?

 

[chf]

Well there are rarely simple reasons why people go to war.

As for Ned and Dayne, he does say that he would have died if not for Reed.

I'll have to read it again. I just finished re-reading Ned's fever dream on wiki, and there (in his own mind) he doesn't revisit the backstab. It did mention (which I forgot) that he did drop Dayne's body off at Starfall after.

So there's that in the Ned plus column.

 

[chf]

And no, Dany won't be a villian. Moving forward, it's fire vs Ice. Valyrian steel and Dragonfire vs the Zombie undead hordes. Everybody needs to re-watch Hardhome. How do the good guys (heh) win with no dragon fire?

Besides that, we're running out of content. It's time for the big bad now. Maybe a few twists and turns and betrayals on the way. But there's no time for Dany to be a villain and then get redeemed.