Feeling good about the rest of the season.

[Sportster 72]

i have published o/line stats that say it isnt as bad as its made out to be and how bad is an OC who has had a top 5 offense 4of 6 years running with 2 different teams ?

PFF has Rak as our top rated defender and its not even close .

haslett is questionable at best

PFF also ranked three Redskin Olineman as mid season pro bowl players. The fact remains in Washington DC people are disappointed in Orakpo. I don't dislike the guy and I hope he plays better but I am not jacking him up to be something he hasn't been yet. Good yes, dominate no.

 

[kbso83432]

Clearly not dominant, but worth re-signing imo. As long as it isn't too crazy.

 

[j_y19]

At the risk of sending some on this forum off the deep end, I'm going to weigh in on Rak. First, I think he is a good player. Occasionally very good. But as our ROLB, I equate him to a cleanup hitter in baseball. We need the long ball from him and, for a variety of reasons, he hasn't produced that. He hits singles and doubles just fine, but as the clean up hitter, we need home runs with regularity. As for the fact that he gets chipped, double teamed and held, these are all true. But so do all of the great ROLB/DEs and the great ones still work through it to put up the production.

Does this mean that we let him go? Hell no. He is a good player. But we also don't sign him to a contract that pays him as one of the top OLBs in the league because he isn't. SO the challenge is what is his value. A franchise tag will cost in the range of $10M. That puts him in the top 5. That's probably too much, but its only for a year. Realistically, I'd like to see us re sign him for a 5 year deal in the $35-40M range. I'd also like to see us use him more in just rushing the passer. Frankly, every time we drop him back in coverage, our defense has become weaker. First, we take a good pass rusher off the QB and second, we have a guy in coverage that just isn't that good at doing it.

 

[kbso83432]

At the risk of sending some on this forum off the deep end, I'm going to weigh in on Rak. First, I think he is a good player. Occasionally very good. But as our ROLB, I equate him to a cleanup hitter in baseball. We need the long ball from him and, for a variety of reasons, he hasn't produced that. He hits singles and doubles just fine, but as the clean up hitter, we need home runs with regularity. As for the fact that he gets chipped, double teamed and held, these are all true. But so do all of the great ROLB/DEs and the great ones still work through it to put up the production.

Does this mean that we let him go? Hell no. He is a good player. But we also don't sign him to a contract that pays him as one of the top OLBs in the league because he isn't. SO the challenge is what is his value. A franchise tag will cost in the range of $10M. That puts him in the top 5. That's probably too much, but its only for a year. Realistically, I'd like to see us re sign him for a 5 year deal in the $35-40M range. I'd also like to see us use him more in just rushing the passer. Frankly, every time we drop him back in coverage, our defense has become weaker. First, we take a good pass rusher off the QB and second, we have a guy in coverage that just isn't that good at doing it.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[skinsdad62]

PFF also ranked three Redskin Olineman as mid season pro bowl players. The fact remains in Washington DC people are disappointed in Orakpo. I don't dislike the guy and I hope he plays better but I am not jacking him up to be something he hasn't been yet. Good yes, dominate no.

he doesnt have to be dominate . nor does kerrigan , who is basically the same caliber of player

 

[skinsdad62]

At the risk of sending some on this forum off the deep end, I'm going to weigh in on Rak. First, I think he is a good player. Occasionally very good. But as our ROLB, I equate him to a cleanup hitter in baseball. We need the long ball from him and, for a variety of reasons, he hasn't produced that. He hits singles and doubles just fine, but as the clean up hitter, we need home runs with regularity. As for the fact that he gets chipped, double teamed and held, these are all true. But so do all of the great ROLB/DEs and the great ones still work through it to put up the production.

Does this mean that we let him go? Hell no. He is a good player. But we also don't sign him to a contract that pays him as one of the top OLBs in the league because he isn't. SO the challenge is what is his value. A franchise tag will cost in the range of $10M. That puts him in the top 5. That's probably too much, but its only for a year. Realistically, I'd like to see us re sign him for a 5 year deal in the $35-40M range. I'd also like to see us use him more in just rushing the passer. Frankly, every time we drop him back in coverage, our defense has become weaker. First, we take a good pass rusher off the QB and second, we have a guy in coverage that just isn't that good at doing it.

you know weeks ago i said he would most likely be franchised and posters on this board went round and round with me about that saying he wasnt worth it (franchised for one year that is )

i also said i counted on him being franchised for budgeting purposes again that didnt translate either

instead i got a litany of reasons as to why he wasnt a top 5 OLB which wasnt the point in the 1st place

i agree 35 to 40 mil is about right but no one could get past the 1st year franchise tag

we made davis prove it , (he didnt ) so why wouldnt we make Rak prove it ? you give a corp redskins a leap of faith , my point throughout the hole debate

as for pass coverage , could it be that he (and kerrigan ) are better then an aging LBF or a crap safety ?

 

[j_y19]

you know weeks ago i said he would most likely be franchised and posters on this board went round and round with me about that saying he wasnt worth it (franchised for one year that is )

i also said i counted on him being franchised for budgeting purposes again that didnt translate either

instead i got a litany of reasons as to why he wasnt a top 5 OLB which wasnt the point in the 1st place

i agree 35 to 40 mil is about right but no one could get past the 1st year franchise tag

we made davis prove it , (he didnt ) so why wouldnt we make Rak prove it ? you give a corp redskins a leap of faith , my point throughout the hole debate

as for pass coverage , could it be that he (and kerrigan ) are better then an aging LBF or a crap safety ?

You're not suggesting we handle Orakpo the same way we did Davis? If you remember, we let Davis walk and test the free agency water. No one was really interested. We didn't use the franchise tag on Davis.

As far as Kerrigan and Orakpo being the same caliber player, I have to respectfully disagree. Kerrigan has made multiple plays for us out side of just pass rushing. Rak has one INT that fell into his hands. Kerrigan has INTs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, multiple tackles for losses, and has turned into an adequate cover guy, although I still disagree with even using him in coverage, but your point about him being better that Fletcher is valid. Kerrigan is just a better all around athlete and playmaker. My knock on Kerrigan is he tends to disappear for stretches of the season (like the last 2-3 games). I'd like to see more consistency.

 

[Sportster 72]

At the risk of sending some on this forum off the deep end, I'm going to weigh in on Rak. First, I think he is a good player. Occasionally very good. But as our ROLB, I equate him to a cleanup hitter in baseball. We need the long ball from him and, for a variety of reasons, he hasn't produced that. He hits singles and doubles just fine, but as the clean up hitter, we need home runs with regularity. As for the fact that he gets chipped, double teamed and held, these are all true. But so do all of the great ROLB/DEs and the great ones still work through it to put up the production.

Does this mean that we let him go? Hell no. He is a good player. But we also don't sign him to a contract that pays him as one of the top OLBs in the league because he isn't. SO the challenge is what is his value. A franchise tag will cost in the range of $10M. That puts him in the top 5. That's probably too much, but its only for a year. Realistically, I'd like to see us re sign him for a 5 year deal in the $35-40M range. I'd also like to see us use him more in just rushing the passer. Frankly, every time we drop him back in coverage, our defense has become weaker. First, we take a good pass rusher off the QB and second, we have a guy in coverage that just isn't that good at doing it.

Well said j_y

 

[skinsdad62]

You're not suggesting we handle Orakpo the same way we did Davis? If you remember, we let Davis walk and test the free agency water. No one was really interested. We didn't use the franchise tag on Davis.

As far as Kerrigan and Orakpo being the same caliber player, I have to respectfully disagree. Kerrigan has made multiple plays for us out side of just pass rushing. Rak has one INT that fell into his hands. Kerrigan has INTs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, multiple tackles for losses, and has turned into an adequate cover guy, although I still disagree with even using him in coverage, but your point about him being better that Fletcher is valid. Kerrigan is just a better all around athlete and playmaker. My knock on Kerrigan is he tends to disappear for stretches of the season (like the last 2-3 games). I'd like to see more consistency.

i am saying that statistically kerrigan is about the same as Rak . look at both of their 1st 2 years

Rak 106 tackles 19.5 sacks
kerrigan 117 tackles 16 sacks

this year
rak 29 tackles 4 sacks
kerrigan 37 tackles 6.5 sacks
rak 2x PB
kerrigan 1xPB

fairly close

 

[skinsdad62]

You're not suggesting we handle Orakpo the same way we did Davis? If you remember, we let Davis walk and test the free agency water. No one was really interested. We didn't use the franchise tag on Davis.

As far as Kerrigan and Orakpo being the same caliber player, I have to respectfully disagree. Kerrigan has made multiple plays for us out side of just pass rushing. Rak has one INT that fell into his hands. Kerrigan has INTs, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, multiple tackles for losses, and has turned into an adequate cover guy, although I still disagree with even using him in coverage, but your point about him being better that Fletcher is valid. Kerrigan is just a better all around athlete and playmaker. My knock on Kerrigan is he tends to disappear for stretches of the season (like the last 2-3 games). I'd like to see more consistency.

My bad i thought we franchised davis at least once

 

[Sharkinva]

My bad i thought we franchised davis at least once

Actually we did franchise Davis in 2012 on a prove it contract. Remember he was suspended for the last four games of 2001 for use of the halflings leaf. We franchised him in 2012 because we didnt ant to give him a long term contract without him proving he could stay out of trouble. He got hurt, and that is why we basically told him to test the market and get back to us in 2013.

 

[skinsdad62]

Actually we did franchise Davis in 2012 on a prove it contract. Remember he was suspended for the last four games of 2001 for use of the halflings leaf. We franchised him in 2012 because we didnt ant to give him a long term contract without him proving he could stay out of trouble. He got hurt, and that is why we basically told him to test the market and get back to us in 2013.

that is what i was alluding too we liked him and we franchised him in a "prove it " scenario

 

[skinsdad62]

Keim: For the right price, yeah I do. But I'm not sure yet what his market value will be and that will determine a lot. I think he would help himself by having a couple big games down the stretch, which in turn would help the entire team. The Redskins like what Orakpo adds and have defended his numbers. They weren't confident that he had all his strength back for much of the first half of the season after his two torn pectoral muscles. Agree or not, that's how they feel. Also, if you let him get away you'd better have a good alternative. Do they view Rob Jackson as that sort of guy? I know they were excited to get Orakpo back this season.

another reason i feel if they cant work something out they will franchise him . and again this is a budgeting exercise , not the end all be all

 

[Sharkinva]

that is what i was alluding too we liked him and we franchised him in a "prove it " scenario

So the question becomes, is it worth $10 million against the cap to see if Rak can prove it??

 

[elocomotive]

Wanted to first say this is a REALLY good thread with a lot of great posts. I really enjoyed reading it.

I'd only change the title to "Feeling Good About the Future." With our remaining schedule, I think this year is just going to end tough and we're likely a 7-9 or 6-10 team with questions at year's end.

I think the Shanahans have done a great job and will continue to improve this squad. I'm not sold on Haslett, but not a hater either. Our defense has been in the bottom 5 for 3 of the last 4 years I think, but there is a lack of talent there, though I think it will get better. As I think Shark mentioned, who else would you get and is that better than continuity?

I spent some time looking at the four drafts since Shanahan took over and the last four drafts of the Cerrato era. Here are the first 3 picks of those years from each (* means not in the NFL at present):

Cerrato - Rocky McIntosh, Anthony Montgomery*, Reed Doughty, LaRon Landry, Dallas Sartz*, HB Blades*, Devin Thomas*, Fred Davis, Malcolm Kelly*, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes*, Cody Glenn*

Shanahan - Trent Williams, Perry Riley, Dennis Morris, Ryan Kerrigan, Jarvis Jenkins, Robert Griffin III, Josh Leribeus, Kirk Cousins, David Amerson, Jordan Reed, Phillip Thomas


The difference is stark. And doesn't even include later round picks by Shanny like Alf, Compton, Helu, and Paul who have contributed as well. I see under Shanahan a team building towards something and crawling out from the shit sandwich this franchise was made into under Cerrato. I think the offensive play calling has been WAY better under Kyle/Mike than it was for the previous 10 years (anyone remember the 1-yard gain WR screens we always ran?). I think there are questions about the defense, but I think the team is heading in the right direction - we have a franchise foundation in RG3 and a team improving around that foundation. I don't want to see us change gears yet again.

 

[j_y19]

This has been a good thread. I think we have to put things into perspective. Remember back when Shanahan was hired? We had nothing. Literally, nothing. At that time, most of us realized that there was no way Shanahan/Allen were going to fill all the holes we had in an off season or two. So I have tried to step back. I have said all along that Mike has done a lot of good things since he came here. Have I had issues with how he handled some things? Absolutely. For example, it seems to me that we could have handled Davis a bit different and potentially not driven his market value down to nothing. By benching him and deactivating him, we devalued him in any trade potential there might have been. We did the same thing with Haynesworth although his situation was much more understandable to me. But if we didn't publicize the Haynesworth fiasco, we might have garnered greater value in trade for that human wast pile. Most of the issues I have with the Shanahan regime revolve around tactical issues.

But the bigger picture and the direction of the franchise is much more positive. I am as disappointed with this year as any. But I also truly feel we are heading in the right direction and we are not far off. For this reason, we need to give Mike at least his fifth year with an understanding that he is still in control of his future. Maybe we should give him an extension for a couple of years, but not until the end of the season. Lets see how we finish. The playoffs at this point are probably not in the cards and even if they were, we wouldn't go far. Strategically, we are moving in a positive direction. To change regimes now would only serve to set us back while a new front office retools. Consequently, I'v come t the conclusion that as long as we don't fall completely apart in the 2nd half of this season, we need to stay the course.

 

[skinsdad62]

So the question becomes, is it worth $10 million against the cap to see if Rak can prove it??

some people say no i say yes , why not ? he is a corp skins player , and he is entering the prime of his career .
if it doesnt work out the we have 10 mil in 2015

i have shown in another post how we can get even more cash for 2014 if needed

i dont see a huge risk

 

[skinsdad62]

Wanted to first say this is a REALLY good thread with a lot of great posts. I really enjoyed reading it.

I'd only change the title to "Feeling Good About the Future." With our remaining schedule, I think this year is just going to end tough and we're likely a 7-9 or 6-10 team with questions at year's end.

I think the Shanahans have done a great job and will continue to improve this squad. I'm not sold on Haslett, but not a hater either. Our defense has been in the bottom 5 for 3 of the last 4 years I think, but there is a lack of talent there, though I think it will get better. As I think Shark mentioned, who else would you get and is that better than continuity?

I spent some time looking at the four drafts since Shanahan took over and the last four drafts of the Cerrato era. Here are the first 3 picks of those years from each (* means not in the NFL at present):

Cerrato - Rocky McIntosh, Anthony Montgomery*, Reed Doughty, LaRon Landry, Dallas Sartz*, HB Blades*, Devin Thomas*, Fred Davis, Malcolm Kelly*, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes*, Cody Glenn*

Shanahan - Trent Williams, Perry Riley, Dennis Morris, Ryan Kerrigan, Jarvis Jenkins, Robert Griffin III, Josh Leribeus, Kirk Cousins, David Amerson, Jordan Reed, Phillip Thomas


The difference is stark. And doesn't even include later round picks by Shanny like Alf, Compton, Helu, and Paul who have contributed as well. I see under Shanahan a team building towards something and crawling out from the shit sandwich this franchise was made into under Cerrato. I think the offensive play calling has been WAY better under Kyle/Mike than it was for the previous 10 years (anyone remember the 1-yard gain WR screens we always ran?). I think there are questions about the defense, but I think the team is heading in the right direction - we have a franchise foundation in RG3 and a team improving around that foundation. I don't want to see us change gears yet again.

yeah i am thinking 6-10 or 7-9 unless they prove it on the field so far its been a mixed bag

 

[elocomotive]

This has been a good thread. I think we have to put things into perspective. Remember back when Shanahan was hired? We had nothing. Literally, nothing. At that time, most of us realized that there was no way Shanahan/Allen were going to fill all the holes we had in an off season or two. So I have tried to step back. I have said all along that Mike has done a lot of good things since he came here. Have I had issues with how he handled some things? Absolutely. For example, it seems to me that we could have handled Davis a bit different and potentially not driven his market value down to nothing. By benching him and deactivating him, we devalued him in any trade potential there might have been. We did the same thing with Haynesworth although his situation was much more understandable to me. But if we didn't publicize the Haynesworth fiasco, we might have garnered greater value in trade for that human wast pile. Most of the issues I have with the Shanahan regime revolve around tactical issues.

But the bigger picture and the direction of the franchise is much more positive. I am as disappointed with this year as any. But I also truly feel we are heading in the right direction and we are not far off. For this reason, we need to give Mike at least his fifth year with an understanding that he is still in control of his future. Maybe we should give him an extension for a couple of years, but not until the end of the season. Lets see how we finish. The playoffs at this point are probably not in the cards and even if they were, we wouldn't go far. Strategically, we are moving in a positive direction. To change regimes now would only serve to set us back while a new front office retools. Consequently, I'v come t the conclusion that as long as we don't fall completely apart in the 2nd half of this season, we need to stay the course.

Good points. I give the Shannys credit for one more thing - they recognized that without a top tier QB, you cannot be a consistent winner in this league.

They got McNabb, and even though it didn't work out, i understand why they did it. With that not being an option, they did what they had to do to get RG3 and immediately it paid dividends. They were criticized by many saying it was a ridiculous trade and then again for picking Cousins, but both seem like smart moves in retrospect and they accomplished getting a guy who should be an elite quarterback and talent in this league.

 

[kbso83432]

I also applaud Shanahan for passing on Gabbert when many criticized him for it.