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TREFF

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@TREFF

my bad, you are always right, anyone with a differing thought is always wrong.
You get back to work now, I've got more important things to do as well
Well no, I've been proven wrong many many times, and generally I'm all for admitting it when I'm proven wrong. But when reality disproves a theory, I'm not sure why I'd just roll over on it.

Regardless, I still admire and respect you, nothing about this was ever an effort to belittle you or your thoughts. I thought we were having a simple debate about football theory
 

TREFF

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so how is the Dolphins recognizing a need and making a move not an investment or "not trying"?
you don't get to have it both ways here.
because they gave a massive contract to a career backup who had proven nothing? Rather than one of the various more proven options available, or at least investing in the draft? To me, no that's not credit worthy.
I mean technically, black and white, yes, your correct, it is an investment, and an effort. But one that virtually everyone could've, or should've, or did, foresee as not working out from jump, so its really tough for me to quantify that as a true effort.
I mean form my perspective, Maimi's entire approach was to rectify that gaping wound with bandaids, not stiches or staples, ya know?
 

Clayton

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KC spent a 1st rounder on a RB and the Eagles spent a 2nd on their starter. The "it uses up valuable resources" defense is played out. You need to have an nfl caliber running game if you are going to compete without a top 10 all time QB.
In terms of the draft it is relative to the rest of the talent where they are drafted, too. Zeke getting drafted in the first round wasnt a mistake. He just should have been pick 10 instead of pick 4. KC picking a RB at 32 wasnt a mistake. They just should have picked Jonathan Taylor instead of CEH. Taylor wasnt even the 2nd RB off the board, though, so a lot of teams made that mistake.

That said, there are 5 or 6 epic busts drafted right before CEH. The 2020 draft is probably a faulty measuring stick because of COVID. I dont think KC was wrong to take a RB there.
 

averagejoe

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders.
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The 2020 draft is probably a faulty measuring stick because of COVID. I dont think KC was wrong to take a RB there.
Just out of curiosity, does KC sports radio lament CEH when Jonathon Taylor was available?
 

Clayton

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Just out of curiosity, does KC sports radio lament CEH when Jonathon Taylor was available?
KC fans do. I personally think Tee Higgins is the obvious pick in hindsight. I was a pretty big Higgins fan although I did think CEH was going to be better than what he was. KC sports radio...or at least what I listen to...usually focuses on the positive. Nothing but good things to say about Jet McKinnon the past two seasons. Really hyped him up last year so its not a shock that he was brought back and played well. The local sports people were also the first ones to report that Pacheco was passing everyone up in the depth chart.

Generally Chiefs fans were mad at even the idea of taking an RB in rd1 before the draft. I wanted a CB but once there was a run on them I figured the pick was either going to be CEH or Kristian Fulton. Fulton fell quite a bit in the draft process. I do remember liking CEH less and less the more I looked at him as a draft prospect. I think the idea was that he was supposed to be a good receiver but it didnt show up on film at all. Burrow made him. He still had the ability to make college players miss but has only been average at that in the NFL level. Still, I thought D'andre Swift was JAG and the Jonathan Taylor was the best pure runner. I thought JK Dobbins was an equivalent to Damien Williams....which would have been fine.

CEH is probably the 2nd worst pick by Veach as a GM (he traded up to get Breeland Speaks in rd2....who was seen as a 4th rounder and played like it and wasnt a scheme fit).
 

Clayton

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Since we're talking about average trait guys on stacked teams, Jaxon Smith-Njigba is certainly a polarizing prospect at WR. I've seen lists having him as a 2nd rounder but man does he have some fans.
 

eaglesnut

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In terms of the draft it is relative to the rest of the talent where they are drafted, too. Zeke getting drafted in the first round wasnt a mistake. He just should have been pick 10 instead of pick 4. KC picking a RB at 32 wasnt a mistake. They just should have picked Jonathan Taylor instead of CEH. Taylor wasnt even the 2nd RB off the board, though, so a lot of teams made that mistake.

That said, there are 5 or 6 epic busts drafted right before CEH. The 2020 draft is probably a faulty measuring stick because of COVID. I dont think KC was wrong to take a RB there.
Right and I'm saying as a resource that first rounder was spent. Whether it was Taylor or CEH depends on the evaluators. But the resource is spent either way.

It could be spent on a bust at another position and KC would still be in the Super Bowl, because using the resource on a RB doesn't eliminate your ability to build a competitive roster. If they had used it on Taylor that would increase how dangerous an offense they are and would be well worth the expenditure of that resource.

Dallas would have gotten more out of Zeke if they didn't run him into the ground, but that's not a resource problem. Giants put Barkley behind a bad Oline. They wasted more resources on bust Olinemen than they did RBs.
 

Clayton

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Right and I'm saying as a resource that first rounder was spent. Whether it was Taylor or CEH depends on the evaluators. But the resource is spent either way.

It could be spent on a bust at another position and KC would still be in the Super Bowl, because using the resource on a RB doesn't eliminate your ability to build a competitive roster. If they had used it on Taylor that would increase how dangerous an offense they are and would be well worth the expenditure of that resource.

Dallas would have gotten more out of Zeke if they didn't run him into the ground, but that's not a resource problem. Giants put Barkley behind a bad Oline. They wasted more resources on bust Olinemen than they did RBs.
It might sound counter-intuitive but I think its worth spending that resource when you do have a QB more than when you don't. The issue for me isnt that RBs lack value. Its that they lack longevity. If you have a Super Bowl window open, investing in a RB in the draft isnt a bad idea. You can build around good RBs and they usually show their value immediately.

The Giants won a playoff game with Barkley, a decent oline (finally), and a bunch of dudes at WR and QB. That team massively overachieved and RB was part of it. Niners are in a Super Bowl window and they traded for CmC. Yeah, their team fell apart but that can happen to anyone. Eagles invested in running but they also have a QB
 

eaglesnut

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It might sound counter-intuitive but I think its worth spending that resource when you do have a QB more than when you don't. The issue for me isnt that RBs lack value. Its that they lack longevity. If you have a Super Bowl window open, investing in a RB in the draft isnt a bad idea. You can build around good RBs and they usually show their value immediately.
I completely agree with this.

The problem for some teams is they are so bad they don't get use the RB as much as they could. McCaffrey has more value to the Niners than the Panthers.
 

TREFF

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Niners are in a Super Bowl window and they traded for CmC. Yeah, their team fell apart but that can happen to anyone. Eagles invested in running but they also have a QB
No RB, (or anyone else for that matter) is going to overcome you having to play a QB who can't use his throwing arm for half the game
 

Barilko

Probably at hockey or some dam concert you tell me
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That'd be a tough one. most often the 'stars' on those teams would be the QB's, but if the measure of 'misdirect-planning to use the less relevant players' -then usage would be the stats to look at, yes? Touches. Keeping in mind that RB's always touch the ball about %75 more than receivers-an average day for a good starting RB these days is about 15-20 touches, average day for a #1 WR is somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 so the numbers are naturally skewed their direction anyways
Just quickly going down that list Monkey posted:

-The '20 Bucs had Brady, Evans, Godwin, AB, Gronk as their "stars" - Fournette and Jones touched the ball 20 and 12 times respectively, no receiver had more than 6 catches (Gronk)

- '19 Chiefs had Mahomes, Kelce, Hill - DAm. WIlliams touched the ball 21 times (and should have been the MVP, Hill had 9 Kelce 7

- '18 Patriots- Brady and Gronk, Edelman, Michel (short on stars offensively that year) - Michel 18 touches, Edelman 10, Gronk 6

- '17

YES! a hockey reference I can understand, cuase Hockey was actually relevant in everyday life during that era..I know most of those names!!
HOSER!
 

Bandit

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I think the biggest thing now as opposed to the past is that you can't count on a running back to carry you to a Super Bowl no matter what. I looked back at the winners for the last 20 something years and the last team I can come up with that's star player was a running back was the '98 and '99 Broncos with Terrell Davis. Yes they had John Elway, but those were Terrell Davis's teams by that time in Elway's career. Every team since then was either quarterback driven or defense driven, except the 2017 Eagles as I don't even know what the hell to classify that team as. They were clearly quarterback driven while Wentz was healthy, but after that I don't know how they won. That was just a quick glance, so if you think I'm wrong it's possible. LOL.
 

TREFF

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I think the biggest thing now as opposed to the past is that you can't count on a running back to carry you to a Super Bowl no matter what. I looked back at the winners for the last 20 something years and the last team I can come up with that's star player was a running back was the '98 and '99 Broncos with Terrell Davis. Yes they had John Elway, but those were Terrell Davis's teams by that time in Elway's career. Every team since then was either quarterback driven or defense driven, except the 2017 Eagles as I don't even know what the hell to classify that team as. They were clearly quarterback driven while Wentz was healthy, but after that I don't know how they won. That was just a quick glance, so if you think I'm wrong it's possible. LOL.
I agree %100. All I've ever claimed is that just because you no longer climb on the back of a big bruising RB 30-40 times a game, doesn't mean that the position is any less relevant than any other skill position, and who you have back there does matter and does make a difference. Unless you've got a unicorn at QB, you need a real RB to give some semblance of balance, and hodge podges of mediocre guys who just happen to play RB, don't cut it. Thats all I've ever claimed, all I've ever tried to get across, and by and large, that's the reality of it.
 

TREFF

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  • Cowboys RB Tony Pollard is expected to receive the franchise tag.​

    Pollard underwent surgery last month after going down in the Divisional Round. The injury hasn't changed the Cowboys' view on Pollard, with the expectation he'll be ready for the start of the season. Dallas plans to restructure Ezekiel Elliott and franchise Pollard, which would pay him $10 million in 2023. Tagging Pollard would give Dallas until July to reach a long-term deal.
    RELATED:

    ProFootball Network's Tony Pauline reports Cowboys RB Ezekiel Elliott is expected to take a "large pay cut" to remain with the team.​


    Cowboys GM Jerry Jones has said the team wants Elliott, who is scheduled to make $16.7 million, back for 2023. Releasing Elliott ($5M cap savings) remains in play but would come with $12 million in dead money. Elliott returning on a restructured deal may be the likeliest outcome, allowing Dallas to keep him on the roster at a reduced salary. The Cowboys also have an interest in bringing back free agent Tony Pollard this offseason.


    Dumb, dumb and dumb, on both counts. cut him, let him walk..invest in youth at the position, multiple options that can get the same job done available in this year's draft. Zeke is done as an effective main back and isn't exactly a stud at short yardage either, and Pollard has at best 2-3 years at a level worthy of a decent contract, and that's if he returns to form from the injury. Use that money rebuilding the Oline, a good space eating DT, or the secondary could use help virtually everywhere. If you strike out in the draft, plenty of cheaper alternatives available in free agency this year.
 

averagejoe

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders.
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Monty is an impending UFA isn't he? Do da Bears re-sign him?
Locally, all the talk radio seems to suggest the Bears will focus on the lines - offense and defense. Guests on the sports radio shows echo the same thing.

I have heard only one radio guest, Field Yates (who does have a friendship with GM Ryan Poles), suggest Monty could be on another team.
 

averagejoe

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders.
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I dont think anyone sees Monty as part of the problem. The phrase around town that seems to be gaining momentum is "We're considering all options."
 

TREFF

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Josh Jacobs told Pro Football Talk he'd play on the franchise tag "if the team loaded up at all other positions and added players around him."​

So, if they acquire Aaron Rodgers, then? Jacobs added "if you want me to come back as the hero, you better pay me like a hero." It's a fair assessment of his value after he led the NFL in rushing last season. Jacobs also noted that he'd prefer to play somewhere tax free if things can't work out with the Raiders.

ok, so you know that D. Adams is getting outrageous money, and then he wants 'loading up at all other positions and adding players around him" and playing on the franchise tag of slightly over 10 million..so basically, in order to play on the franchise tag Josh Jacobs wants an Aaron Rodgers type QB , and apparently 'loading up at other positions would be what?? another top tier WR opposite D. Adams? So another 25-30 million, plus Adams, plus the high dollar QB, plus the over paid Waller..so he thinks he's gonna succeed with a minimum wage defense, what about the dudes blocking for him, or are they included in the 'loaded up"??

And if not there, he wants no state income tax..well states with no income tax who have an NFL franchise--Florida, Texas, TENN, Washington, and Nevada.
Cross off Nevada and the Raiders, you've got
Jaguars - nope they're set
Dolphins- nope haven't invested in a real RB in a decade or so, Ronnie Brown ('05) was the last real investment, got lucky with Lamar Miller and then sent him packing when it was time to re-sign him ('12-'15), so.. can't see them doing so now, even though they should, Jacobs would be great in that offense and would take a massive amount of pressure off Tua.
Buccaneers - maybe, but they have bigger worries and likely will be entering rebuild mode, you don't sign big name RB's in rebuild, you draft them
Cowboys - if they don't re-sign and re work Pollard and Zeke- maybe but I hope not
Texans - doubtful in their reset button mode
Titans- nope
Seahawks- highly doubtful with Walker entrenched

So unless you wanna be a Buccaneer, who also is currently QB-less, you might wanna re-think that requirement.

A nice 8-9 million average per year deal for the next 4-5 in Vegas is about the perfect deal for you and them, maybe they can still afford a decent QB and a compliment to Adams without breaking the bank and screwing the D completely
 

TREFF

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Locally, all the talk radio seems to suggest the Bears will focus on the lines - offense and defense. Guests on the sports radio shows echo the same thing.

I have heard only one radio guest, Field Yates (who does have a friendship with GM Ryan Poles), suggest Monty could be on another team.

I dont think anyone sees Monty as part of the problem. The phrase around town that seems to be gaining momentum is "We're considering all options."
I would agree, Monty is right there on that line of guys who are perfectly capable of being "the guy", but at the same time, aren't all that special. I wouldn't expect a big time contract, so I can't imagine they'd be completely against it. It's not like he's going to command much more than a 4-6 million a year type deal, most likely less given the need in the market being minimal, and the supply higher than normal.
I think he'd be a great fallback option for the Cowboys after they've said adios to Zeke/Pollard if they don't get one of the two stud RB's in the draft. (assuming he doesn't sign in the first wave). But it appears that's all a pipe dream and half their cap is gonna go to RB's
 
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