Dustmop Logic/Read Closely for Clues

[WvuDieHard]

Baker preaching patience, strategy for Reds hitters




ATLANTA -- Thoughts on hunting and fishing are apropos with a four-day break for the All-Star Game coming up following Sunday afternoon's series finale with the Atlanta Braves at Turner Field.
While Reds Manager Dusty Baker wasn't recommending either activity to his players during his Sunday morning press conference, he did recommend looking into the approach of both activities in helping fix one his team's struggles on the field, specifically the recent difficulties hitting with runners in scoring position.
The Reds were hitting .178 with runners in scoring position over their last 27 games (39-for-219) heading into Sunday, and littered the basepaths at Turner Field over the series' first three games, stranding 21 runners while hitting .259 (7-for-27) in such situations and only .208 (5-for-24) since going 2-for-3 in the first inning Thursday night.
Baker cited the lack of a plan as a big problem, which spirals into lack of discipline, playing into opposing pitchers' hands.
"You have to have a philosophy, you have to have a plan," he said. "I just feel a lot of people are going up there with no plan or not realizing what they're trying to get you to do. They're trying to induce you into a double play. So there are certain pitches that are more conducive to a double play pitch. They have to realize that they're in trouble, not you. I've expressed all of these things for like four or five years now. Hit the ball up the middle with two outs or concentrate up the middle, stay out of the air or stay off the ground at certain times. It's a mindset that you have before you even get into the box."
Baker, who hit .280 in RISP situations during his career, recalled a wide variety of advice given to him from advisers, ranging from former teammates and Hall of Famers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda to Japanese legend Sadaharu Oh before settling in on the approach of the successful hunter and gatherer at rabbit hunting and fishing.
"If you chase this rabbit all over everywhere, he'll stop and start," Baker said. "Just stand in front and he'll come back to you. But as long as you're chasing him all around. … It's the same way in hitting. Or fishing. To catch the big bass, you've got to have the proper worm presentation, proper color at the time of the year, proper speed or you're not catching anything but the little bluegills."
Baker pointed to Detroit Tigers third baseman and defending American League MVP winner Miguel Cabrera as one of the "big boys" who has separated himself with a plan and a disciplined approach.
"You watch Miguel Cabrera. He has a heck of an idea what he wants to do," he said. "He'll shoot you to right field and take a single one time then he'll turn on you the next time looking inside or back off the plate if they're throwing him sinkers, get up on the plate if they're throwing him breaking balls. That's what I mean by the big boys don't just go for the bait because you know they're baiting the heck out of Cabrera."
Baker also recalled his nickname for a guy who wasn't as patient.
"There was a player I called 'Bluegill' for a long time here. He didn't know why I was calling him 'Bluegill,'" he said. "It was because he'd swing at the first piece of bait they'd throw out there. You catch the big boys because they don't go for the bait. The little guys get themselves out because they go for the first piece of bait they throw out there. That's the Bluegill. So that's what you can do. They say sometimes you get so wound up that you just lose sight of the thought process and over a period of time, over a period of years you should be getting better at it or else you'll forever be a bluegill."

This truly proves it is time to scrap the DustMop for a manager and coaching staff that can communicate the issue to the players. This is just stupid shit.

 

[JohnU]

What the fuck ever rabbits or bluegills have to do with this ... a team has a million-dollar film room, professional (I use the term generically) coaching and players who realize that the reason they pop up and Votto doesn't isn't all about just hitting 3rd in the lineup.

If Baker's plan is to tell the players to have a plan ... then the plan ought to be, get the fuck out. If Jacoby's idea of hitting is to wait for Dusty to ramble on about hunting and fishing, then the plan ought to be, get the fuck out.

This team is NOT that talented, but it's not that bad either.


Worm presentation, my ass.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Terrible, but I think I get the gist of what he was saying, but if this is how he explains "plate philosophy" to his players, I also understand why they are clueless.

My long time frustration with the Reds hitters is twofold- they aren't looking for a certain pitch in a certain location dependant on the situation- they look like they are guessing or swinging at random. Second, the coaching staff doesn't give signals for a bunt or steal or hit and run in logical, commonly excepted sound fundamental situations.

I think if Dusty is putting all that situational understanding and responsibility on the hitter and or runners, without a signal, it's basically negligence or incompetence on their part. If he isn't, why aren't there more signals (and attempts) in those situations ? It's a valid question.

I'd be a lot less critical of the Reds dugout if there were more bunt attempts after leadoff doubles, steal attempts of leadoff singles BEFORE bunt attempts, or hit and runs in DP situations with more than zero outs. Also, swinging at 1st pitches after a unintentional walk doesn't show much thought process by anyone involved, and a 3-0 popup isn't bright either. There is a take sign, too, you know.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Terrible, but I think I get the gist of what he was saying, but if this is how he explains "plate philosophy" to his players, I also understand why they are clueless.

My long time frustration with the Reds hitters is twofold- they aren't looking for a certain pitch in a certain location dependant on the situation- they look like they are guessing or swinging at random. Second, the coaching staff doesn't give signals for a bunt or steal or hit and run in logical, commonly excepted sound fundamental situations.

I think if Dusty is putting all that situational understanding and responsibility on the hitter and or runners, without a signal, it's basically negligence or incompetence on their part. If he isn't, why aren't there more signals (and attempts) in those situations ? It's a valid question.

I'd be a lot less critical of the Reds dugout if there were more bunt attempts after leadoff doubles, steal attempts of leadoff singles BEFORE bunt attempts, or hit and runs in DP situations with more than zero outs. Also, swinging at 1st pitches after a unintentional walk doesn't show much thought process by anyone involved, and a 3-0 popup isn't bright either. There is a take sign, too, you know.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Geez. Technology is hosing me here. Dunno why in getting duplicate posts. Sorry.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Hey, in no scout, but here's a few tidbits on our Reds if I were:

Take away the homer, and they're done. Bruce can be had on the inside breaking ball off the plate, or the fastball up, and away. Walk Votto with 1b open, because Phillips pulls the outside pitch into DPs all the time- don't throw him fastballs, Votto isn't stealing anyway. Frazier, Cozart and Heisey are strictly fastball hitters- Frazier is a lowball hitter, Cozart and Heisey like it up. Always throw them off speed breakingballs ahead in the count, and you don't have to throw a strike to get them to swing. Choo can't hit a lefty breakingball. Robinson and Heisey are the only non pitchers likely to bunt, in any situation, and no one is likely to steal, but 1 out and 2 strikes is a Dusty favorite to try.

You would think as obvious as all that is to a chump like me, Fusty and Jerkoby could give a little clue or two to these boys.

 

[JohnU]

Geez. Technology is hosing me here. Dunno why in getting duplicate posts. Sorry.

It's not like it's a hardship for us.

 

[JohnU]

I imagine a lot of teams have predictable offensive strategies, but those teams probably have
a.) a better fundamental regimen

or


b.) a sub-.500 record

I watched part of the end of the Birds-Cubs game last night and offhandedly said the Cubs would regret pissing around in the bottom of the batting order in the 8th inning, letting the pitcher make the third out.
Sure enough, in the 9th, they let the top Cardinals hitters get still another plate appearance. Give Beltran and Molina 5 swings, and they will do 4 swings worth of damage.

The Reds are lucky if they turn over the lineup to get Votto even 4 swings.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I was addicted to baseball at 9 years old. I was fortunate enough to have been coached as a kid by a former pro player, who years later introduced me to a recruiter and a pro scout. The recruiter got me a short free ride, and my benefactor drove me to my first pro tryout, and died in an automobile accident on his return trip home. The scout probably signed me out of sympathy for our common friend. It was the only sympathy ever mixed in my baseball experience, which included a short, nondescript playing career and a long one in the dugout.

I was either blessed or cursed by being tought by a series of tireless perfectionists that always saw something else left to do. It's an unforgiving profession, and success is rarely achieved settling for status quo, luck, or good fortune. There are literally thousands of younger players waiting for the first slip, shoulder injury or draft decision. Physical talent is a given, everyone has it...the difference is often between the ears of the principals involved, and that is where my frustration with our Reds festers. In not asking for Steinbrenner and Martin, but I'd like to see a little more priority on preparation, and execution.

 

[JohnU]

I also think that we, as fans, are following the aroma of the possibility that this is the best team in MLB after 22 years of waiting for it to happen again. Honestly, after 1990, I expected the Reds to win at least 5 more pennants ... and be WS champs several times. Seriously, I expected to see that. The Reds had become a great baseball franchise in 1990, I believed.

After 1995, I still had hopes. Never occurred to me this franchise would turn into a small market loser.

Now it's back to contending, right where it should have been in 1991 going forward. Now, from 1990 to 2007, that's what our team became. Can it go there again?

Yes. The point is, our expectations for success are rooted in the reality of how it began to fail and how it finally did fail. Watching this team on the cusp of being good and watching it be managed into mediocrity, that's worrisome.

I got another dozen years on this planet, my doctor estimates ... and I will still be a Reds fan until I get to see the St. Peter Flying Saints -- or the Lowell Red Devils, whichever ... so maybe Dusteroo and his staff aren't in any rush to produce a top franchise, but a lot of fans are.

Nobody wants the Reds to become the other version of the Cubs.

 

[chico ruiz]

i appreciate you sharing that personal story 1507. it could not have been easy at a young age to process all that. i also appreciate your humility and honesty. i don't find it often enough on these pages.

here's the irony in your second paragraph, as i read it: you and dusty are both right. fortunately, you didn't use the same metaphors baker did. and, of course, the frustration is; it doesn't seem like dusty is applying his own words of wisdom to the players in question. the only thing i disagree with is the 'physical talent is a given, everyone has it…' statement. eye - hand coordination seems to come in varying degrees of capable excellence. apparently, miquel cabrera (being on the high end of that spectrum) can see a pitched ball 6-8 feet after it leaves the pitcher's hand. he can wait and has quick hands. it's insane how many 2 strike pitches he hits to right field. he can get severely jammed and still deliver a hit to right field. how many mlb players can do that with his consistency? maybe you're right, and it's all between the ears. maybe dusty's right, and you have to have a plan for all circumstances. maybe you're both right in a perfect baseball world where we can assume these guys are all teachable. i think they can be instructed to a point, and then god-given talent and gift takes over. so, i wonder if heisey, frazier, and cozart are really physically capable. i think you said it best in your previous post; Frazier, Cozart and Heisey are strictly fastball hitters. their plate hot zones substantiate your assessment many times over. these particular 3 players all play hard, and i want them to succeed. forgive me for repeating myself, but i think this warrants a copy / paste.

maybe, just maybe, cozart, frazier, and heisey aren't capable of hitting successfully in mlb. i rarely see frazier stay back on breaking stuff. i never see cozart pull his hands in. he just can't stay inside of a pitched ball. granted there are only a few miguel cabrera's and joey votto's, but at the mlb level you can't try to hit to the opposite field by closing your stance or striding in. you have to wait longer before you commit your hands. you ever notice where matt holliday starts his hands? at the bottom of his rib cage. he's got that little back swing that enables him to pull the knob of the bat inside the ball. bottom line is; he hits the ball. cozart reminds me of dave kong kingman, and that can't be good. is it coaching, or are the aforementioned guys just not that good? you can have a plan, but if you can't identify a front door slider, and the next pitch, or the one before, is a two seam fb / cutter (call it what you will) in the same spot you're probably a .250 hitter at very best. i don't know. how many guys really have a combination of great eyes, strong quick wrists, and can stay inside the ball consistently to foul off 10 pitches, of all variety, coming at you at an average of 95mph?

 

[Redsfan1507]

Ive had an unusual life, blessed with just enough tragedy to appreciate incredible gifts some people take for granted. I also realize there are no guarantees, and all lifespans are too short, especially baseball teams.

I hear you, Chico. I also heard Dusty. Here's my point- every team has talent-but every players talent and talent level is different... and same with managers, I suppose.

Fundamentals, in practice and execution, are the foundation that everything else rests on. For people, its often family, or religion, or morality, or whatever you built you on....fundamentals-It's what even the great players step back to when they're lost. The remedial performers almost have to survive on them, because they don't have superhuman skills to compensate with. In my world, managers were the constant dispensers of fundamentals. They just didn't make many tactical mistakes. They might have picked the wrong guy, or got beat by a great play, or better talent, but they didn't embarrass their teams with a breakdown in baseball 101. In not talking about an occasional missed sign, or a player blasting thru a stop sign in the hear of the moment, Im talking about not trying to advance a leadoff double in the middle of a 6 week slump, or forgetting to walk an 8 hitter to setup a DP/force in place for your D with a playoff game on the line.

The irony is, I DO get Dusty's message about plate philosophy in regard to pitch selection. Part of his talent level has to do with his ability to translate that message to his players, but it definately doesn't end there. He has to practice it until they demonstrate grasp of it... and HE is the one that has to take responsibility for calling the bunt, or taking a pitch after a walk, or stealing before there are 2 strikes in a likely K/A DP scenario. Most players can hit a fastball- it's the pitch they've seen their whole life. The breaking ball takes PRACTICE, and fundamental plate philosophy, before fundamental execution is possible. There is plenty of time to work on such, if it's prioritized. It is certain all players won't become great with practice, but likely they will get better...but most players aren't students of the game- they cant tell you a good hit and run count, or if the runner should start or stay- they need coaches and managers to do that thinking ahead for them; its THEIR job. it's also all but assured no players will learn sound situational play if it isn't demonstrated by the dugout first, and practiced with them at nauseum. Dusty has no acceptable excuse for his mistakes and omissions there. Managers, should have to live by the first prime directive of physicians: first, do no harm. Dusty needs to bone up on his own arithmetic before he starts trying to teach calculus, IMO... and taking a little pressure off his guys by simplifying their scope of responsibility wouldn't hurt.

 

[JohnU]

A LITTLE about successful big-league hitting is repetition and good coaching after the skill set is established. Coaching does matter IF the player understands the discussion. Most say they do but really don't.

Most of it is hand-eye coordination, bat speed, and general vision.

Wade Boggs, in his early years, had 20-10 vision and was hitting .390. Later as he went to the more common 20-20, his numbers declined to the .310-.290 mark, still pretty good. The later numbers were the result of a good work ethic. The earlier ones, the result of hard work, natural talent, coaching and a rare gift.

Oscar Robertson had 190 peripheral vision that gave him a view from generally "behind." I happen to have that "gift" as well, but it doesn't help me at all. It's a pain in the ass, to be honest, in traffic. I see too much. That's the concept of blinders on a horse. But for a basketball player, a 190 peripheral is something I can actually see as being a big difference.

If you work at everything else, those gifts can amplify your advantage.

What annoys me about Cozart isn't that he is a .280 hitter, but that he's a .240 hitter who doesn't maximize the rest of his game. This was the Stubbs story. If you can't hit, bunt. If you can't get a double, lean in on one and steal second.

I keep bringing up the Gary indy-league team as a discussion point, but the fact that the team has 9 HR all season (60 games) and has won 8 of its last 10, there's a point here. The No. 9 guy in their order is just as productive as the No. 3 guy. The lineup is just as pesky from top to bottom. Leadoff guy is hitting .260 with an OBP of around .440. The next guy has 10 triples, or ... 1 more than the entire team's HR total. They haven't hit a single home run in those last 10 games. (A triple that was almost stretched does count, I guess.)

I realize it's minor leagues and the game isn't as crisp or sharp, but it's all on an even field. The teams are similar.

The Reds can win 5 games out of 6 ... instead, they are winning 2 out of 6.

And they aren't making much of an effort to change the paradigm. That's the sad frustration.

 

[Redsfan1507]

One advantage your guys in Gary have, is that everyone there is trying to impress someone, or get noticed in a positive way. Their dream goals are in front of them. It won't overcome their genetic or orher limitations for most of them, but it's clear the effort is there. The same may not always be true for those living in the Show, with enough cash in the investment account to make their great grandchildren privileged. I've been amazed at players that had enough drive to train, excel, and just flip into the virtual easy chair after they reach some level of accomplishment. Most hit the injury wall, or the talent ceiling wall. Not saying this applies to any of our Reds, or their staff, but the sense of urgency sometimes is noticeably different, if you get my drift.

I'm not bitter because I was a failed player, or a small time coach, I'm grateful. I tried to give it all back, but ultimately, I still have a balance due, I'm afraid. This old game gave more to me than the imperfect servant I am could ever give back adequately. Now, I'm just a fan, an ex. Luckily, I got to teach a lot more life than baseball, and I still think I received more from the kids I coached, than I could ever give them, but I'm still so very proud of every one.

Your guys in Gary are living a dream. It may not turn out the way they hope, but as the Stones said, If you try sometimes, you might find, you get what you need.

Maybe Dusty needs to drive a few Reds to Gary for a game... or ask Joey Votto to verbalize where his inner drive really comes from. He knows. Everyone that has it knows. It's a debt they are compelled to repay. Hunger. Need. Validation. Love. Fear. Pride. Those are places baseball players don't like to advertise, but it's what fuels motivation, not money. Those who are motivated by the money are just whores.