Does the Luck contract relate to KC?

[skinsdad62]

look i like KC and all but how is he not in the young but not proven category (at this time ) ? . KC had 8 really good games at the end of last season and before that he was nondescript

i will cede he has potential to be very good but man this guy could be nick foles for all we know at this point and its pure homerism to jump to he is a proven commodity after one season as a starter

lets see how he adjusts to defenses that now have tape on him before we break out the anointing oil

 

[ehb5]

look i like KC and all but how is he not in the young but not proven category (at this time ) ? . KC had 8 really good games at the end of last season and before that he was nondescript

i will cede he has potential to be very good but man this guy could be nick foles for all we know at this point and its pure homerism to jump to he is a proven commodity after one season as a starter

lets see how he adjusts to defenses that now have tape on him before we break out the anointing oil

Careful there dad. You might get mistaken for an rg3 apostle.

 

[gkekoa]

look i like KC and all but how is he not in the young but not proven category (at this time ) ? . KC had 8 really good games at the end of last season and before that he was nondescript

i will cede he has potential to be very good but man this guy could be nick foles for all we know at this point and its pure homerism to jump to he is a proven commodity after one season as a starter

lets see how he adjusts to defenses that now have tape on him before we break out the anointing oil

The other guys in his tier have put together good runs and wins...the guys in the tier below him have t put together runs close to that.

 

[Stymietee]

Sty, you know we been chillin since Jason Campbell was the starting QB. So I will simply say it like this. The concept that what many expected from Griffin has no bearing on how Kirk is viewed is flawed and we both know it. Where either was drafted, at this point should be irrelevant. And we both know that there is STILL a portion of the fan base that thinks we made a mistake and did the other guy wrong. in the grand scheme of things, Both QBs started and won a Division title for this team. Any place outside of DC, with the season Kirk had, paying him a market value deal would not be an issue at this point. Hell Tannehill got paid, and he hadnt even gotten the Dolphins into the playoffs. Saying it would be a RISK to sign Kirk long term is even some what flawed. Because on the off chance that he does perform well, and we are in the same situation next year, we effectively end up STILL committing even more money to him. Why rent a guy for one year at $20 million guaranteed, when you can Lease the same guy for 3-5 years and spread that same guarantee over a minimum of the first three years?

Sorry it's taken a minute to get back to you.

Actually, this team and it's parent organization have been on an uneven track since before Jason Campbell, they so reminded me of the Bullets/Wiz in that they would gather certain personnel, then hire a coach that had a system that only fit some of their players. Fire that coach, hire another that kinda fit the personnel only to begin replace those players that would fit the new guy with players that didn't. This doesn't even account for the mercenaries, high salaried, big splash guys.

I can not speak for the many who had expectations for Griffin, because as you know my position from the beginning was (once the deal was done and the team drafted him) to sit him. I still maintain that an organization that purportedly did an extensive background on a guy who they were willing to invest so much, either were woefully negligent in said background check or committed QB suicide knowing that their guy lacked the basic skills and work habits to do the job properly. Bottom line...Doing the right thing is often the hardest thing in the world!!

BTW: The answer to your salary question is simply, you don't sign a long term deal because inherent in that deal is guaranteed money, and that hurts long term!

 

[Stymietee]

I love the way that you guys take positions based on whatever moves you, but let's look at the facts!

1. True or false (rhetorical)....Did GMSM say publicly that the team was not going to overpay Kirk?

Ans: True

2. Who knows Kirk better than anyone here or in the NFL from a football sense? (again rhetorical)

Ans: Washington

3. Based on that knowledge what did the team ACTUALLY offer their supposed franchise QB what they believed he was worth?

Ans: 13 to 15M per

4. Now pay attention fellas, If Kirk proves that the good half season of a year ago was not a fluke, by performing very well this year against better competition, isn't it true that they won't be overpaying him, because he goes from what he is now....a possibility to a proven commodity? This is why you franchise him now and stick to it.

5. For those still wanting to sign him now, what if this season he has an 8-8 or lesser campaign? How many people in the organization will be saying that he's serviceable, but not the guy? Allotting 40+M in guaranteed money too soon certainly is gonna hurt in subsequent years. Do you really want that?

 

[Stymietee]

The other guys in his tier have put together good runs and wins...the guys in the tier below him have t put together runs close to that.

The team and those who know about his capabilities best put him in the category (tier if you must) with Brock Osweiler and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Until they believe and show otherwise, that's where he belongs.

 

[Stymietee]

Ok but if he has a good season then the Skins are going to have to pay 22M or 23M per season for him. Why not lock him in now at 20M? He has even more weapons than last year so I don't get how he would take a step back.

They would then be paying for a proven, battle tested guy, so no overpay there with the increasing cap numbers. The reason you don't lock him in for 20M now is because, and you said it best, If he.....

 

[j_y19]

They would then be paying for a proven, battle tested guy, so no overpay there with the increasing cap numbers. The reason you don't lock him in for 20M now is because, and you said it best, If he.....

Sty, Ive come around on this. I originally thought that they needed to sign him long term, primarily due to the cap hit. But it appears they managed the cap very well and have to space to do what they want. And I agree 100%, if KC proves himself this year, then when they sign him next year for what ever the number is, its not an overpay because we are locking in a proven franchise qb for years. So basically, the Redskins are paying KC 20M this year as an insurance premium. if he works out, they will pay him what ever he wants and if he doesn't, that $20 M was a hell of a lot cheaper than the $40M guaranteed they would be required to give him if they did sign lock him in long term this year.

 

[skinsdad62]

Careful there dad. You might get mistaken for an rg3 apostle.

look i am just trying to be fair and open some eyes . i like KC , i think he can be good but its hardly a lock and its fair to question him

 

[gkekoa]

If you sign KC now and give him 40 million guaranteed in the first two years of salary, and he fails, you really haven't set the team back because of his salary. The team is set back because he isn't the guy. So he isn't the guy, now what? We draft another rookie QB and by the time KC's guaranteed portion is done, our rookie QB is in year 2 of his rookie contract and KC is not noticed at that point.

Now, if KC proves he is the man, instead of paying him 20 mil/ season, we now have to pay him 25 mil per season. That is 25 million we could have spent on other players improving this team while we have a proven QB wrapped up over a five year period.

 

[ehb5]

look i am just trying to be fair and open some eyes . i like KC , i think he can be good but its hardly a lock and its fair to question him

Don't worry, just messin with ya.

 

[gkekoa]

The team and those who know about his capabilities best put him in the category (tier if you must) with Brock Osweiler and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Until they believe and show otherwise, that's where he belongs.

Actually, the team has decided to take its time...they have put him with Osweiller who did play well. Fitzpatrick is getting 10 mil tops...so KC getting 20 puts him in an entire different realm.

 

[Stymietee]

Actually, the team has decided to take its time...they have put him with Osweiller who did play well. Fitzpatrick is getting 10 mil tops...so KC getting 20 puts him in an entire different realm.

It really doesn't, this will be his second year starting, getting $660.000 last year and 19.9 M this year averages out to just over 10M. Just another reason why you keep him on the FT this year.

 

[Sharkinva]

Sty, Ive come around on this. I originally thought that they needed to sign him long term, primarily due to the cap hit. But it appears they managed the cap very well and have to space to do what they want. And I agree 100%, if KC proves himself this year, then when they sign him next year for what ever the number is, its not an overpay because we are locking in a proven franchise qb for years. So basically, the Redskins are paying KC 20M this year as an insurance premium. if he works out, they will pay him what ever he wants and if he doesn't, that $20 M was a hell of a lot cheaper than the $40M guaranteed they would be required to give him if they did sign lock him in long term this year.

Flip side, Kirk plays well... his agent asks for 5 years $30 million guaranteed. Skins either give him the Exclusive rights franchise tag ( Right around 27 MIllion) or the non exclusive at $25 million. And if Kirk at that point is a proven commodity, you dont think another team would scoop him up and give up the two first rounders??

Sure we can say guaranteeing $40 million over the next 3-5 years MIGHT hurt the cap. BUt if you look at it, unless he fails, we are basically guaranteeing $45 million over two years... again unless you either expect ( or in some cases) hope he fails.

And say he does fail, or just comes out a serviceable.... you really think we are in a better position having to totally start over at QB?? I would rather have Cousins at 3 years with $40 million guaranteed, then end up once again in a position where we are forced to do something dumb like trade 3 first's a second and some ones kidney for a QB.

 

[Stymietee]

Flip side, Kirk plays well... his agent asks for 5 years $30 million guaranteed. Skins either give him the Exclusive rights franchise tag ( Right around 27 MIllion) or the non exclusive at $25 million. And if Kirk at that point is a proven commodity, you dont think another team would scoop him up and give up the two first rounders??

Sure we can say guaranteeing $40 million over the next 3-5 years MIGHT hurt the cap. BUt if you look at it, unless he fails, we are basically guaranteeing $45 million over two years... again unless you either expect ( or in some cases) hope he fails.

And say he does fail, or just comes out a serviceable.... you really think we are in a better position having to totally start over at QB?? I would rather have Cousins at 3 years with $40 million guaranteed, then end up once again in a position where we are forced to do something dumb like trade 3 first's a second and some ones kidney for a QB.

I can't really operated with that type of fear, the most practical thing to do is what they are currently doing. If they can somehow persuade him to sign a team friendly contract before July all the better. SM said that they won't overpay him and I could not agree more. That said, I still think that the best way to go is with the FT.

 

[Sharkinva]

I can't really operated with that type of fear, the most practical thing to do is what they are currently doing. If they can somehow persuade him to sign a team friendly contract before July all the better. SM said that they won't overpay him and I'm could not agree more.

So you would prefer to operate on the fear factor of what if he doesnt improve?? I have said it many times, the majority of players that play on the tag, do not end up resigning with the team the following year. Again, unless you expect (or hope) Cousins fails, or are just a cheap SOB, based on his play last year, he deserves a long term market deal.

Side note, the whole well he had a really good half a year is people trying to convince others that he doesnt deserve a long term deal. He had a good YEAR. He improved over the course of the season and there is no reason to expect him not to continue to improve.

 

[skinsdad62]

i dont have an issue if we sign him to an extension this year and hope we do . i am just saying he isnt proven just yet but sometimes you have to gamble , especially with your own

 

[gkekoa]

It really doesn't, this will be his second year starting, getting $660.000 last year and 19.9 M this year averages out to just over 10M. Just another reason why you keep him on the FT this year.

So you don't want to actually address what I really said?

 

[Stymietee]

So you would prefer to operate on the fear factor of what if he doesnt improve?? I have said it many times, the majority of players that play on the tag, do not end up resigning with the team the following year. Again, unless you expect (or hope) Cousins fails, or are just a cheap SOB, based on his play last year, he deserves a long term market deal.

Side note, the whole well he had a really good half a year is people trying to convince others that he doesnt deserve a long term deal. He had a good YEAR. He improved over the course of the season and there is no reason to expect him not to continue to improve.

He did have a good half season. I don't want him to fail, just prove himself. That whole he improved as time went along is also a gimmick line, because the competition was pretty much the same when he shined. What's the rush to sign this guy? I honestly don't get why some are willing to get him signed long term based on what amounts to a playing against teams that they were just a step better than. Hell 19.5M sets him up for life, I really don't think that it's asking too much to convince the organization that he deserves more than the 12-15M that they offered by having full good year against better competition. He does that, he writes his own ticket and DS will pay it!! We'll all be happy and much more comfortable knowing that FINALLY we've gotten our guy!!

BTW: I'm certainly not cheap by any measure, Like I've said many times before, I'm a long time supporter of this team, and I've seen this dance far too many times to rely on second half, contract year impressions. There are plenty of historical reasons to be cautious about his chances to improve.

 

[Stymietee]

So you don't want to actually address what I really said?

I did...actually read it, you agreed with me about one guy and appear to ONLY disagree mathematically about the other and that's fine. The way Washington, Denver and the NYJ handled each of their guys is the same. ONLY difference is that Kirk got the FT, based on potential. It doesn't mean that the 12-15M offer wasn't a genuine reflection of how he's viewed by the organization.