Does Fantasy Football dictate how we judge players?

[Dude]

The only way you can accurately compare 2 QBs by stats would be if those 2 QBs are the only variables. Of course the problem is everything else is a variable as well and there are no constants.

Agree.

 

[kramer1]

Well, this thread went straight into stat dork hell. It feels like I stumbled over into the baseball board and we're discussing WAR.

 

[SteelerKing]

Stats certainly aren't meaningless. They are definitely part of the story.

They're most of it, sans the details, provided you know how to interpret the data. The only thing the stats don't show you is how pretty the pass was, the catch was, the run was, etc. Saying that they're only "part" of the story is really just an attempt to minimize them because you don't understand what you're looking at and don't look at all of it. I've seen how you think about stats in the past, Money. People only want to dismiss the numbers when the numbers don't perpetuate the myths their perceptions have created about a player.

Please read my novel up above if you haven't already and consider the following play-by-play description of Quarterback X (I'll omit all other plays and call all pass plays):

1st and 10 at the 20 - pass incomplete short right, off the receiver's hands.
2nd and 10 at the 10 - pass complete deep left for 18 yards, no yac, caught on the sidelines.
1st and 10 at the 38 - pass complete short middle for 5 yards, down by contact.
2nd and 5 at the 43 - pass complete short middle for 5 yards, 10 yac, player ran out of bounds.
1st and 10 at the opposing 42 - pass incomplete deep left.
2nd and 10 at the 42 - pass complete deep right for 22 yards, down by contact.
1st and 10 at the 20 - pass incomplete short right, nearly intercepted.
2nd and 10 at the 20 - pass complete short right, 5 yard gain, 2 yac.
3rd and 3 at the 13 - screen pass for 3 yards, measuring sticks, 1st down.
1st and 10 at the 10 - pass incomplete middle.
2nd and 10 at the 10 - pass complete left, touchdown.

So to recap that drive, quarterback X was 7/11 (63.6%) for 80 yards and a touchdown. He also had a 7.3 YPA, a passer rating of 115.7, and a TD% of 9%. (I reposted this to give the full stat line otherwise I wasn't doing it justice). The only thing that's missing from that stat line are the details, but it takes nothing away from the fact that it actually happened that way. "Part" of the story? Yes. About 75% of it.

 

[SteelerKing]

Well, this thread went straight into stat dork hell. It feels like I stumbled over into the baseball board and we're discussing WAR.

Translation: I never played sports and I never took statistics so I can't comprehend the correlation between the numbers and the player's actual performance. Therefore, I'll just insult the people who do and dismiss the numbers.

 

[kramer1]

Translation: I never played sports and I never took statistics so I can't comprehend the correlation between the numbers and the player's actual performance. Therefore, I'll just insult the people who do and dismiss the numbers.

No. It just doesn't need to be this dorky. It's football, not chess.

 

[Thruthefog]

(1) Guys who poo poo fantasy football are usually more knowledgeable than most of their FF playing counterparts. However, they poo poo it because more knowledge doesn't always translate to winning (because of the luck factor), and their egos can't take it.

(2) Stats are for the people who have yet to gain an understanding of the game of football.

 

[Money]

They're most of it, sans the details, provided you know how to interpret the data. The only thing the stats don't show you is how pretty the pass was, the catch was, the run was, etc. Saying that they're only "part" of the story is really just an attempt to minimize them because you don't understand what you're looking at and don't look at all of it. I've seen how you think about stats in the past, Money. People only want to dismiss the numbers when the numbers don't perpetuate the myths their perceptions have created about a player.

Please read post #78 and then let me know what you don't understand about it.

 

[SteelerKing]

No. It just doesn't need to be this dorky. It's football, not chess.

It's only "dorky" to you because I explained it in thorough detail in an attempt to explain it to people who have adopted a completely errant perception of stats and what they actually represent. People who dismiss the stats don't understand them or their correlation to the game of football. I see this all the time, which is why I went to the trouble of posting that novel on the previous page. I'm hoping it wasn't a waste of my time, but comments like yours are making it one.

 

[SteelerKing]

(1) Guys who poo poo fantasy football are usually more knowledgeable than most of their FF playing counterparts. However, they poo poo it because more knowledge doesn't always translate to winning (because of the luck factor), and their egos can't take it.

(2) Stats are for the people who have yet to gain an understanding of the game of football.

This is a patently false statement. I played the game all the way up through college. Don't blame your failure to comprehend the correlation between the numbers and what is occurring on the field as a failure to understand the game on the part of the person who does. Really dumb comment dude.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

So if Eli is elite, why are the Giants NOT in complete control of their shoddy division?

Here's some of what I've noticed; copied from game recaps verbatim so I don't have to summarize...





Again, I don't think Eli is a bad quarterback, I've just seen enough of plays like these from him to prevent him from ever being considered close to an elite QB. We're always going to see just about as much bad as good from him and that's a big reason why his teams finish 8-8 +/- 2 wins every year.

I'm not well versed on what defines elite, but consistency has to be one measurement and because Eli has not been as consistent from year to year you point to the second tier for him and Ben imo.

The Giants have been most average lately...1 season with dbl digit wins over the last 7...maybe that speaks to talent, coaching, idk. I think the Giants just need a fresh voice...not that Couglin has lost it or whatever...he's been to two SBs and got it done both times, but transitioning to younger teams at his age...you wonder.

 

[SteelerKing]

Please read post #78 and then let me know what you don't understand about it.

It's a debate we've had before and one I'm not interested in having with you again. Your argument is a flawed, illogical fallacy. That's fine if you think that players can't be compared by their stats, but it's wrong and I proved that before even with examples of other positions and even other sports. The one thing you can't do seamlessly is compare players from different eras exclusively by their stats, but if you think Tom Brady and Peyton Manning can't be compared by their stats then you're just further proving that you have no clue what the stats actually represent.

 

[Thruthefog]

This is a patently false statement. I played the game all the way up through college. Don't blame your failure to comprehend the correlation between the numbers and what is occurring on the field as a failure to understand the game on the part of the person who does. Really dumb comment dude.

Matt Millen played the game all the way up through the NFL.

I've been a math and stat geek all my life. Football stats measure one thing. The stat. They have never, and will never, measure the ability of a football player. There are too many variables that can't be measured to put any stock into any numerical representation of said ability. The only thing football stats are good for is playing fantasy football.

 

[Money]

Your argument is a flawed, illogical fallacy.

Great. Your sentence is redundancy at it's finest.

 

[RP-29]

I'm not well versed on what defines elite, but consistency has to be one measurement and because Eli has not been as consistent from year to year you point to the second tier for him and Ben imo.

The Giants have been most average lately...1 season with dbl digit wins over the last 7...maybe that speaks to talent, coaching, idk. I think the Giants just need a fresh voice...not that Couglin has lost it or whatever...he's been to two SBs and got it done both times, but transitioning to younger teams at his age...you wonder.

Yes, I consider consistency a critical element of elite status. Consistency from play to play, game to game and season to season. Eli is a roller coaster ride.

I'd rather have Ben QB my team than Eli, but I'd rather have Eli babysit my daughter than Ben.

 

[SteelerKing]

Matt Millen played the game all the way up through NFL.

I've been a math and stat geek all my life. Football stats measure one thing. The stat. They have never, and will never, measure the ability of a football player. There are too many variables that can't be measured to put any stock into any numerical representation of said ability. The only thing football stats are good for is playing fantasy football.

This is false as well. Aaron Rodgers has put up some godly numbers, Barry Sanders put up godly numbers, Wayne Gretzky put up godly numbers, and Michael Jordan put up godly numbers. The numbers are/were an accurate representation of their abilities as players.

 

[Money]

Look out everyone. The poor, little stat geek is handing out doodies.

 

[SteelerKing]

Great. Your sentence is redundancy at it's finest.

Up to your usual tactics, I see. When you can't win a debate and have no rational counter to the argument, steer it onto an irrelevant track. You ever heard of adjectives before? There's nothing redundant about it. You're just being a numb skull.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yes, I consider consistency a critical element of elite status. Consistency from play to play, game to game and season to season. Eli is a roller coaster ride.

I'd rather have Ben QB my team than Eli, but I'd rather have Eli babysit my daughter than Ben.

Eli can throw some really bad picks at times...that would be my reason for taking Ben...not as prone to throw the real bad pick.

My point on the elite QB topic has always been...(if Brees is still considered elite), there are 3 guys right now with Manning no longer playing at his normal high level...it's not really a slight to say a QB is not elite.

 

[SteelerKing]

Look out everyone. The poor, little stat geek is handing out doodies.

There's another one for you.

Have a nice day.

 

[Money]

Up to your usual tactics, I see. When you can't win a debate and have no rational counter to the argument, steer it onto an irrelevant track. You ever heard of adjectives before? There's nothing redundant about it. You're just being a numb skull.

Your sentence was completely redundant. What's the matter? Are you a stupid idiot?

BTW...you ran from the debate, so I'm not quite sure wtf you are talking about. See comment below:

It's a debate we've had before and one I'm not interested in having with you again.