do we miss rak ?

[Sharkinva]

As for coaches you're the one who's latched onto arians. It's simply a fact that we will be able to find somebody to take the job after gruden and a fact that that person can be a good coach without being a big name. That's not really up for debate. It doesn't mean that person will be, but the possibility can't be denied

that is your quote . i said you brought arians up first which you did so who latched on to whom first ?

so lets recap . kelly took over for reid after he served a decade as HC

arians took over for whisenhunt who had been there for 5 years and add to it you dont get much hotter the AP nfl coach of the year

quinn to over for smith , he held it for 6 years

rex ryan took over for mangini 3 yrs

harbuagh i dont know which one , john took over for billick after billick got 9 years

jim barbaugh took over for mike singletary 3 years

payton took over for hazmat 6 years

whisenhunt took over for dennis green who got 3 years

so every person you named took the job they got after the previous HC got 3 years or more which isnt the premise of what i said which is you wont get a credible coach if you are only going to give him 2 years or less

and all of this goes back to where you have "proven me wrong " which clearly that is in question

 

[Stymietee]

Context.......context........context......is vastly under employed on this site? Anybody stop to wonder why we continue to get guys that only get two years? Could be an impatient owner, but most likely it's because we hire guys that only warrant the two that they do get. That my friends is on Bruce Allen, who unfortunately has retained the right to hire coaches. Anybody remember that Zorn was brought in to be OC? How about Gruden being a colleague of Allen's in Tampa Bay? Or Shanahan being in great demand prior to his hire........SIKE!!!!....... the guy was retired, baitin' fish hooks when Bruce came calling.

 

[skinsdad62]

View attachment 43461

shark i believe ebb 5 believes KC is less the avg . i can see him picking stats that back his POV . calling someone AVG is subjective but by however number of qbs you want to compare him to , overall he comes in right around avg whether its 32 starting qbs or 64 + qbs in the NFL

as for the coaches well i showed the facts of the guys he named , not me

now i didnt come out and say i chewed up ebb 5 like he implied in this thread so i went back and pulled the numbers

ebb 5 , to me is like many posters , they say we need stability , we need to develop players etc etc etc until losses pile up then they sing a different tune

they dont answer how we got a zorn or spurrier . they forget coaches turning us down left and right

i am not saying gruden is the answer , what i am saying is give him the 3rd year to make it work then you can get a coach who wont be a gruden under a different guise but i guy who would feel he will get a fair shot to get his program in place

and when i say that when we get a new coach it will take 3 more years they put their blinders on and go to the land of theory . look if the guy was going to take a team that had an established qb and good depth throughout the roster then perhaps they could succeed early and often but we dont have that type of team right now . we have a team that is half rebuilt at best .

lets be real how many players on this roster start for the pats ? . perhaps a handful . go through the roster and tell me i am wrong , how many start for the packers ? or broncos ?

am i crazy here shark ?

 

[Sharkinva]

Context.......context........context......is vastly under employed on this site? Anybody stop to wonder why we continue to get guys that only get two years? Could be an impatient owner, but most likely it's because we hire guys that only warrant the two that they do get. That my friends is on Bruce Allen, who unfortunately has retained the right to hire coaches. Anybody remember that Zorn was brought in to be OC? How about Gruden being a colleague of Allen's in Tampa Bay? Or Shanahan being in great demand prior to his hire........SIKE!!!!....... the guy was retired, baitin' fish hooks when Bruce came calling.

SO no coach has warranted more than two years, but you would devote 3-4 years and a high draft pick for a guy to sit on the bench in QB school?? Where is the logic in that??

 

[skinsdad62]

Context.......context........context......is vastly under employed on this site? Anybody stop to wonder why we continue to get guys that only get two years? Could be an impatient owner, but most likely it's because we hire guys that only warrant the two that they do get. That my friends is on Bruce Allen, who unfortunately has retained the right to hire coaches. Anybody remember that Zorn was brought in to be OC? How about Gruden being a colleague of Allen's in Tampa Bay? Or Shanahan being in great demand prior to his hire........SIKE!!!!....... the guy was retired, baitin' fish hooks when Bruce came calling.

how many good coaches turned us down publicly sty ? quite a few you are right about what you have said but again we havent gotten a really good coach in quite some time and a lot of it has to do with an impatient owner and some not qualified decision makers

now can SM convince a qualified HC he will get the time to implement his program ? certainly but the stench of dysfunction wont go away overnight

and i am sorry but if a coach doesnt think he will get a fair shake here then why take the job ? really will a shaw leave stanford if he believes he wont get a fair shake to get his program and players ?

 

[Stymietee]

SO no coach has warranted more than two years, but you would devote 3-4 years and a high draft pick for a guy to sit on the bench in QB school?? Where is the logic in that??

That's your take on what I've said about QB schools. What I've actually said was that the length of time that each sits and learns depends upon the student. If the starter in front of him is doing the job, then he gets to sit longer or if he's fully ready, that same starter can either back him up or become trade bait. Win-win for the organization. Do you really think that McCarthy is not preparing Rogers replacement right now? That's what happens and benefits your organization ad infinitum when you choose to go proactive instead of being reactive.

 

[Sharkinva]

That's your take on what I've said about QB schools. What I've actually said was that the length of time that each sits and learns depends upon the student. If the starter in front of him is doing the job, then he gets to sit longer or if he's fully ready, that same starter can either back him up or become trade bait. Win-win for the organization.

So I will play along. How do you propose we run this QB school if we in fact dont even have a competent starter. Because we havent had one of those in almost 20 years.

 

[Stymietee]

how many good coaches turned us down publicly sty ? quite a few you are right about what you have said but again we havent gotten a really good coach in quite some time and a lot of it has to do with an impatient owner and some not qualified decision makers

now can SM convince a qualified HC he will get the time to implement his program ? certainly but the stench of dysfunction wont go away overnight

and i am sorry but if a coach doesnt think he will get a fair shake here then why take the job ? really will a shaw leave stanford if he believes he wont get a fair shake to get his program and players ?

Love your rants man, honestly do, but sometimes you baffle me in the way you qualify them. For example, you mentioned SM as as maybe being able to convince someone to come here, did you forget that Bruce Allen still hire HC's? Can't be disagreeable about anything else that you've written here.

 

[Breed]

sorry i meant 16th however 16 is directly in the middle of 32 isnt it and by definition avg ? and that is if you go solely by stats alone

KC is an avg qb at this point he looks to be a career backup but again if he is ranked 43rd which i will accept for the point of arguments sake that would make him 9 spots off of avg of all qbs if they all have 2 qbs ( which we all know they dont ) so again he would be pushing middle of the pack

I'm not trying to pile on here dad, but the other day. I said I'd dig it if KC can become a mid-tier meaning 10 to 15 range type QB. Feeling pretty good that Scotty Mac could build a team around that kind of QB capable of legitimately competing for Super Bowl titles.

If Cousins is indeed among the 16 best QBs in the NFL right now. I might have to revise my calculations on what mid-tier QB in the NFL truly means. I don't believe he is though and I think his unwillingness for whatever reason to not pass downfield is falsely inflating his stats. He also throws too many INTs and at what seems the most critical part or critical parts of the game. As well as misses too many open WRs to be considered among the 16th best QBs in football.

 

[Stymietee]

So I will play along. How do you propose we run this QB school if we in fact dont even have a competent starter. Because we havent had one of those in almost 20 years.

Easy answer, kirk Cousins could have benefitted from such training as he sat in wait. Granted that was not always the case because of the injuries, but imagine how much further along he might be because of it. Now foolishly, there are people wanting to give him time to learn when he had the time but not the means......I wonder what might have been done to abbreviate that learning process while he was the backup. ........hmmmmmmmm.

Added benefit, as we wait to see if Kirk pans out, idiots might have closed the school down, conversely, smarter, wiser heads might have drafted a QB and put him through the process. Just saying!

 

[Sharkinva]

Easy answer, kirk Cousins could have benefitted from such training as he sat in wait. Granted that was not always the case because of the injuries, but imagine how much further along he might be because of it. Now foolishly, there are people wanting to give him time to learn.......I wonder what might have been done to abbreviate that learning process while he was the backup. ........hmmmmmmmm.

Added benefit, as we wait to see if Kirk pans out, idiots might have closed the school down, conversely, smarter, wiser heads might have drafted a QB and put him through the process. Just saying!

NO... that wasnt the case because we didnt have a competent starter in front of him thus the majority of the coaching staffs time was spent trying to FIX RG3 there fore any time spent on Kirk was simply to make him into what he is now, a backup trying to be the starter. Bottom line is, the process doesnt work if you dont HAVE a competent starter in place to begin with.

 

[Stymietee]

NO... that wasnt the case because we didnt have a competent starter in front of him thus the majority of the coaching staffs time was spent trying to FIX RG3 there fore any time spent on Kirk was simply to make him into what he is now, a backup trying to be the starter. Bottom line is, the process doesnt work if you dont HAVE a competent starter in place to begin with.

You're wrong dude, this team did not have a professional level QB's coach until this year. What you're now saying is that Kirk's learning curve was stunted by the difficulties inherent in the whole Griffin mess, right? Yet Griffin refused to learn on his own.

 

[Sharkinva]

You're wrong dude, this team did not have a professional level QB's coach until this year. What you're now saying is that Kirk's learning curve was stunted by the difficulties inherent in the whole Griffin mess, right? Yet Griffin refused to learn on his own.

Griffin refused to be taught because he thought he knew it all.

But by your logic, as Griffin is the 3rd QB and HAS a QB coach, in the event that he has had 3+ years of teaching, and now has a QB coach... if he gets put in we should actually see some real progress at this point right??

 

[Stymietee]

Griffin refused to be taught because he thought he knew it all.

But by your logic, as Griffin is the 3rd QB and HAS a QB coach, in the event that he has had 3+ years of teaching, and now has a QB coach... if he gets put in we should actually see some real progress at this point right??

If in the current environment there has been time devoted to teaching him how to read defenses, adjust at the line of scrimmage and work done on his mechanics...........ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT YES!!! (Not sure what you mean by 3+ years of teaching)

 

[Sharkinva]

If in the current environment there has been time devoted to teaching him how to read defenses, adjust at the line of scrimmage and work done on his mechanics...........ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT YES!!! (Not sure what you mean by 3+ years of teaching)

3+ years of dedicated teaching... by now two coaching staffs. And if that is really your assessment.. I can only hope that Kirk flames out this weekend and that Griffin is inserted as the starter. Because I would be willing to bet a months pay that even with another three years of dedicated teaching Griffin will never be more than a slightly more accurate yet severely more arrogant version of Michael Vick. His problem wasnt a lack of effort from multiple coaching staffs, it was his own arrogance and dedication to his brand over his craft.

 

[Stymietee]

I know that people hear what is being said, but it is by far a much more difficult task to listen to what's being said. Classic example, J Gruden has been talking about his QB situation for a while now and he has repeatedly said, quote: "Right now, of the three of them, Kirk gives us the best chance to win." Nothing wrong with that statement right? Well, what's most often quoted or repeated is.... " of the 3 of them Kirk gives us the best chance to win." But is that the most telling part of his statement? Absolutely not!!!
I suggest that people pay more attention to the "Right now" beginning.

Understand, if there are no machinations going on quietly with the other two guys, Kirk will always be the best option. If however, there is work being done, "right now" could have a significantly different look going forward. Listening, what a great skill to own, in fact if anyone is able, go back to review the Atlanta game, specifically at the 2:42 mark of the first quarter. Pay attention to what the commentator states his experience was in talking to the team's staff. That is what I believe JG is referring to when he begins with "Right now!"

 

[Sharkinva]

Sty.. two coaches to date have deemed that Griffin is NOT NFL starting material. How many more coaches have to be fired for people to accept that he ISNT an NFL level QB??

 

[Stymietee]

3+ years of dedicated teaching... by now two coaching staffs. And if that is really your assessment.. I can only hope that Kirk flames out this weekend and that Griffin is inserted as the starter. Because I would be willing to bet a months pay that even with another three years of dedicated teaching Griffin will never be more than a slightly more accurate yet severely more arrogant version of Michael Vick. His problem wasnt a lack of effort from multiple coaching staffs, it was his own arrogance and dedication to his brand over his craft.

We don't have a QB's school here, nor did we have a professional level QB's coach until this year, how are you missing those facts? What Griffin, Cousins and to a lesser extent McCoy has had in the previous 3 seasons is EXPERIENCE as a teaching tool.....not dedicated teaching/training. There's a huge difference between the two.

 

[Stymietee]

Sty.. two coaches to date have deemed that Griffin is NOT NFL starting material. How many more coaches have to be fired for people to accept that he ISNT an NFL level QB??

None......how about the organization stop doing stupid shit for convenience sake?

 

[Sharkinva]

We don't have a QB's school here, nor did we have a professional level QB's coach until this year, how are you missing those facts? What Griffin, Cousins and to a lesser extent McCoy has had in the previous 3 seasons is EXPERIENCE as a teaching tool.....not dedicated teaching/training. There's a huge difference between the two.

NO disrespect dude.. but I think you are reaching to prop up the WHY of Griffins failure. MAtt Ryan never went through QB School. Neither did Ben Rothlisberger, Payton or Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, Russell WIlson... and I could likely name 10 more QBs who have either won Super Bowls since the advent of the internet, or are at minimum considerewd franchise QBs in their own right. Griffin didnt fail because of a lack of a QB coach, or for lack of people trying. Cousins isnt failing due to a lack of QB school or for a lack of people trying. Now their reasons for failing are very different... but your whole QB school concept died out with land lines and dial up.