David Ortiz is sick of the asterisk

[StanMarsh51]

ortiz will get elected...and its going to enrage a lot of people (especially you NYers).

its basically a give in at this point. he will get in first ballot...he'll break that wall.

What makes you think he'll be a first ballot HOF when guys like Piazza and Bagwell can't get in on multiple tries when they have better cases than Ortiz?

 

[Rock Strongo]

What makes you think he'll be a first ballot HOF when guys like Piazza and Bagwell can't get in on multiple tries when they have better cases than Ortiz?

better cases?

how so?

and yes, he will get in first ballot. someones gotta be first, and why not ortiz?

Note: He has never failed a sanctioned MLBPA test...and google "mike piazza back acne"...interesting read from former minor league teammates about a near overnight transformation.

im also not dumb, ortiz did take something...but was it a gnc product now banned, or HGH etc?

no one knows.

 

[StanMarsh51]

better cases?

how so?

and yes, he will get in first ballot. someones gotta be first, and why not ortiz?

Note: He has never failed a sanctioned MLBPA test...and google "mike piazza back acne"...interesting read from former minor league teammates about a near overnight transformation.

im also not dumb, ortiz did take something...but was it a gnc product now banned, or HGH etc?

no one knows.

Piazza's positional value as a catcher (even if he was a mediocre defensive one) easily gives him a better case than Ortiz. Piazza hit .308 with 427 HR and a 142 OPS+ as mostly a catcher, the most demanding position on the field.

As for Bagwell, compare their numbers:
Ortiz - .285 AVG, 139 OPS+, 466 HR, 1533 RBI, 1267 R
Bags - .297 AVG, 149 OPS+, 449 HR, 1529 RBI, 1517 R

Add in that Bagwell was a pretty good defensive 1B and stole 200 bases, how exactly was Ortiz better?


The only thing Ortiz has on those two are rings, and I don't think that alone is the difference between a guy who's supposedly a 1st ballot HOF and a guy who can't make it in his first few years so far.

 

[williewilliejuan]

better cases?

how so?

and yes, he will get in first ballot. someones gotta be first, and why not ortiz?

Note: He has never failed a sanctioned MLBPA test...and google "mike piazza back acne"...interesting read from former minor league teammates about a near overnight transformation.

im also not dumb, ortiz did take something...but was it a gnc product now banned, or HGH etc?

no one knows.

Piazza has a much more compelling case and never failed any test, sanctioned or otherwise.

 

[3 & 6 years to go...]

• First player in Red Sox history to hit 40 or more home runs in three consecutive seasons (2004–2006)
• Third player in Red Sox history, joining Carl Yastrzemski and Manny Ramirez with 3 seasons of 40 or more home runs
• Set single season record for home runs by a Designated Hitter in 2005 (43), then again in 2006 (47)
• 8 seasons of 30 or more home runs (2003-2007, 2010, 2013, 2014) Tied with Ted Williams for most in Red Sox history (since passed williams)
• 8 seasons of at least 30 home runs and 100 RBIs (2003–2007, 2010, 2013, 2014) Most in Red Sox history
• 17 career postseason home runs (Tied for 7th all time in MLB history)
• 60 career postseason RBIs (5th all time in MLB history)

add to that..most HR's ever for a DH

most hits every by a DH

over 1500 RBI

.926 career OPS


closing in on 2200 hits

This is not sarcasm. You've sold me. I don't like Ortiz at all!!!! <--Reaction to the number of HRs against the Yankees. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!

Do I respect him, and think he is a great player. Yes.

Those are HOF numbers. Period.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

better cases?

how so?

and yes, he will get in first ballot. someones gotta be first, and why not ortiz?

Note: He has never failed a sanctioned MLBPA test...and google "mike piazza back acne"...interesting read from former minor league teammates about a near overnight transformation.

im also not dumb, ortiz did take something...but was it a gnc product now banned, or HGH etc?

no one knows.

I think you're considering the whole "sanctioned MLBPA test" bit a whole lot more than the voters will. My opinion is that if they haven't started electing guys with steroid suspicions by the time Ortiz is eligible, he won't get in. If they have, I think he will, but not 1st ballot.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

google "mike piazza back acne"...interesting read from former minor league teammates about a near overnight transformation.

Ortiz in MIN: .266/.348/.461/.809/108

He moves to Boston, where steroid usage is considered fairly rampant, and subsequently does this:

Ortiz in BOS: .290/.387/.567/.954/147

Look, I'm not sure that he did/does juice, but there's certainly enough smoke to question if there's a fire. To sit back and suggest he tested positive for creatine or some such shit and that he'll be a first ballot HOFer when players with better resumes haven't even gotten in sure makes you seem like a fanboy.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

ortiz will be the first DH elected to the HOF, ive said this for years.

while edgar was great, he toiled in anonymity in the NW territories and was very quiet and reserved. ortiz is a very public, very available figure. some could argue he was the face of MLB for a time.

plus he didnt have ortiz's power

as we stand today, statistically...ortiz is the best DH of all time.

You might be right about Ortiz getting elected first, but there is a pretty compelling case for Edgar being the better hitter.

While you are correct in pointing out that Ortiz has generally been a more productive power hitter (262 ISO vs 204) you also have to acknowledge that Edgar was on base much more than Ortiz with a career 418 OBP vs 379- so the power and on base mostly offset each other since the baserunning actually ends up being a tertiary factor in run scoring; not that it's a meaningful difference between DH's, anyhow. Once you meld it together into wOBA, Edgar actually has an edge over Papi at a career wOBA of 405 vs 391; roughly computes to a wRC+ in favor (once you neutralize park factors as wRC+ does) of Martinez by a career wRC+ mark of 147 for Martinez to a 135 mark for Papi. I don't think they are as far apart as the wRC+ probably implies here at all, but the case for Edgar is equally compelling, if not a little moreso. It's tough to justify Papi in Cooperstown if Edgar can't get in.

One thing is for sure: If these two aren't HOF DH's I don't think ANYONE is.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

if ortiz gets in then Carlos Delgado is a first balloter...

 

[calsnowskier]

Personally, I dont think PEDs is the pertinent argument around Papi. The DH is. And for me, there has not been a DH worthy of the HOF yet, and I do not anticipate there ever being one.

Molitor and Thomas are in, and they were both approx 1/2 DHs for their careers. I think that is about as close as it will/should get. Again, IMHO, that is TOO close for my comfort...

 

[Erie Warrior]

Personally, I dont think PEDs is the pertinent argument around Papi. The DH is. And for me, there has not been a DH worthy of the HOF yet, and I do not anticipate there ever being one.

Molitor and Thomas are in, and they were both approx 1/2 DHs for their careers. I think that is about as close as it will/should get. Again, IMHO, that is TOO close for my comfort...

I agree. The DH is a half assed position. You would have to put up Ruth like numbers to get in as a DH. Ortiz is not that good, roids or no roids.

 

[cezero]

i totally believe big poopy is completely natural and always has been.

 

[podsox]

I don't really care whether he took them or not but I don't know how you dispute this

Dan Shaughnessy fires back at David Ortiz, actually makes compelling argument

 

[Rock Strongo]

Ortiz in MIN: .266/.348/.461/.809/108

He moves to Boston, where steroid usage is considered fairly rampant, and subsequently does this:

Ortiz in BOS: .290/.387/.567/.954/147

Look, I'm not sure that he did/does juice, but there's certainly enough smoke to question if there's a fire. To sit back and suggest he tested positive for creatine or some such shit and that he'll be a first ballot HOFer when players with better resumes haven't even gotten in sure makes you seem like a fanboy.

very good, VERY extensive article about 6 years ago fro SI ( i have the link saved on my home laptop). minnesota tried getting him to spray the ball, play small ball...move runners along...as that was the team philosophy at the time.

he couldnt hit lefties well at the time, couldnt play 1st base...and they had DH's a plenty at the time too.

a lot of people dont realize this...ortiz was actually released so the twins could get a SS from texas they coveted in the rule 5 draft that year.

im googling for the article now...cant find it.

he was actually drafted by the mariners under a different name too, david arias.


i did find this tho:

How David Ortiz became David Ortiz - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

That winter Ortiz became eligible for arbitration. On Dec. 17, the Twins designated Ortiz for assignment to make room on the roster for shortstop Jose Morban, who had been selected from Texas in the Rule 5 draft. (Morban was waived in March.)

"I would've liked to have found a home for him," Ryan said. "We exhausted every avenue, but in essence it turned out to be an Ortiz-for-Morban type of thing." From the Pioneer Press:

The Twins finally solved their math problems Monday, even as they struggled with chemistry during the final day of baseball's winter meetings.

In a move that trimmed payroll and opened a spot in a left-leaning lineup for their promising, young right-handed hitters, the Twins released charismatic designated hitter David Ortiz, perhaps the most popular player in the clubhouse.

"He's very disappointed. Very disappointed," said Ortiz's agent, Diego Benz. "He's really close to a lot of those guys there. It'll be a few days before he's upbeat again." ...

Ortiz, who was in his second winter of arbitration eligibility, made $950,000 last season and figured to command a 2003 salary in the $2 million range. By eliminating his salary, general manager Terry Ryan can be competitive in contract negotiations with all-star center fielder Torii Hunter and survive arbitration with left fielder Jacque Jones and first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz without going beyond a payroll budget of just more than $50 million.

"This isn't the most ideal scenario," said Ryan, who spent the past several weeks right up until Monday morning trying to trade Ortiz. "I would have much preferred to be able to trade him and to find a home for him with another club. We just couldn't get it done."

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

very good, VERY extensive article about 6 years ago fro SI ( i have the link saved on my home laptop). minnesota tried getting him to spray the ball, play small ball...move runners along...as that was the team philosophy at the time.

he couldnt hit lefties well at the time, couldnt play 1st base...and they had DH's a plenty at the time too.

a lot of people dont realize this...ortiz was actually released so the twins could get a SS from texas they coveted in the rule 5 draft that year.

im googling for the article now...cant find it.

he was actually drafted by the mariners under a different name too, david arias.


i did find this tho:

How David Ortiz became David Ortiz - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

That winter Ortiz became eligible for arbitration. On Dec. 17, the Twins designated Ortiz for assignment to make room on the roster for shortstop Jose Morban, who had been selected from Texas in the Rule 5 draft. (Morban was waived in March.)

"I would've liked to have found a home for him," Ryan said. "We exhausted every avenue, but in essence it turned out to be an Ortiz-for-Morban type of thing." From the Pioneer Press:

The Twins finally solved their math problems Monday, even as they struggled with chemistry during the final day of baseball's winter meetings.

In a move that trimmed payroll and opened a spot in a left-leaning lineup for their promising, young right-handed hitters, the Twins released charismatic designated hitter David Ortiz, perhaps the most popular player in the clubhouse.

"He's very disappointed. Very disappointed," said Ortiz's agent, Diego Benz. "He's really close to a lot of those guys there. It'll be a few days before he's upbeat again." ...

Ortiz, who was in his second winter of arbitration eligibility, made $950,000 last season and figured to command a 2003 salary in the $2 million range. By eliminating his salary, general manager Terry Ryan can be competitive in contract negotiations with all-star center fielder Torii Hunter and survive arbitration with left fielder Jacque Jones and first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz without going beyond a payroll budget of just more than $50 million.

"This isn't the most ideal scenario," said Ryan, who spent the past several weeks right up until Monday morning trying to trade Ortiz. "I would have much preferred to be able to trade him and to find a home for him with another club. We just couldn't get it done."

That post has a lot of words.

I'm sure that, like Ortiz, Mike Piazza has a story to explain his "near overnight transformation." You believe the Ortiz story and not the Piazza story because you are a Red Sox fan. I'm not and neither are the majority of HOF voters.

 

[Rock Strongo]

That post has a lot of words.

I'm sure that, like Ortiz, Mike Piazza has a story to explain his "near overnight transformation." You believe the Ortiz story and not the Piazza story because you are a Red Sox fan. I'm not and neither are the majority of HOF voters.

you have a weird relationship with inference.

where did i say i believed anybody?

read the article...unless youre afraid.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

you have a weird relationship with inference.

where did i say i believed anybody?

read the article...unless youre afraid.

Whether you typed the actual words that you believe Ortiz or not, you're on here defending him by saying it may have tested positive for something from GNC and that he'll be a 1st ballot HOFer. I don't think you'll find anyone to agree with those points unless they're Red Sox fans.

As far as the articles, I've read them or others just like them before. Nothing you presented in #54 was new information to me.

 

[cerealboi]

That post has a lot of words.

I'm sure that, like Ortiz, Mike Piazza has a story to explain his "near overnight transformation." You believe the Ortiz story and not the Piazza story because you are a Red Sox fan. I'm not and neither are the majority of HOF voters.

So Ortiz going from a 120 OPS+ his final year in Minn. to a 144 OPS+ in Boston is an "overnight transformation" indicative of steroid use?

I guess that means Michael Brantley is using too, huh?
Brantley 2013 - OPS + 105
Brantley 2014 - OPS + 154

 

[Rock Strongo]

Whether you typed the actual words that you believe Ortiz or not, you're on here defending him by saying it may have tested positive for something from GNC and that he'll be a 1st ballot HOFer. .

you must know something me, MLB, and the rest of the world dont know...what he took.



because yes, if you recall...you could buy mcgwires magic muscle powder at GNC once, legally...and it wasnt on any MLB banned lists.

so, theoretically...yes, he very well could have tested positive for a very benign OTC item now banned.

common sense dictates as much.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

The more I thi

So Ortiz going from a 120 OPS+ his final year in Minn. to a 144 OPS+ in Boston is an "overnight transformation" indicative of steroid use?

I guess that means Michael Brantley is using too, huh?
Brantley 2013 - OPS + 105
Brantley 2014 - OPS + 154

Ortiz SLG% went up almost 100 points between his last year with the Twins and his first in Boston.

Regarding Brantley, it's certainly possible that he's using and, based on the fact that I still think the majority of players are using, I may even say probable.

If someone came on here speculating that Brantley was juicing, I surely wouldn't be talking about products from GNC. Particularly if Brantley had actually pissed hot in the past.