Current Roster

[calsnowskier]

If I am not mistaken, this is the year that the '11 draft needs to be protected from the Rule V. I know it isn't quite that simple, but here are some of the guys we got in that draft...

Blackburn
Crick
Hall
Law
Osich
Tomlinson
Harris

Not to mention Panik and Sussac.

That is looking like one HELL of a draft class.

 

[tzill]

They will need to add a few kids to the 40 to protect them from the rule V.

So, are Q and Baby Boch still in the system?

 

[calsnowskier]

So, are Q and Baby Boch still in the system?

That was the crux of my question.

With them being "outrighted" and not "DFA'd", what does that mean? I am not sure exactly what happened with that transaction, thus my question.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Bochy and Quiroz were out righted. Not sure if they need to clear waivers or not.

A team wishing to designate a player for assignment must first place him on irrevocable outright waivers, making him available to the other 29 clubs in reverse order of won-lost record.

If the player is claimed, he is lost to the claiming team for $20,000, and the claiming team is responsible for the balance of any contract.

 

[calsnowskier]

A team wishing to designate a player for assignment must first place him on irrevocable outright waivers, making him available to the other 29 clubs in reverse order of won-lost record.

If the player is claimed, he is lost to the claiming team for $20,000, and the claiming team is responsible for the balance of any contract.

This is all known.

The "question" comes from the fact that the waiver process typically lasts about 9 days (IIRC). GQ and Baby Head bypassed this process. That's why I am not sure what exactly happened.

Were they DFA'd, and it just wasn't reported, and they both cleared? Was the report inaccurate, and they were actually just DFA'd, not outrighted?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I find it kinda interesting that he was called up when he was. Now he gets a ring. Calling him up was a stretch at the time. If he wasn't the boss's son, would he have gotten the call?

I think it best for EVERYONE if he were to be allowed to move on to another org. No hard feelings. Good luck to ya. But let's just remove any potential issues.

I disagree a *little* bit. It's not as if they called him up Sep 20th. A couple pitchers were called up Sep 1 and a few more on Sep 2. It seems that it was the right time to call him up and evaluate him (along with other arms) : Sep, when the bullpen had had quite a few problems recently, and other arms might be able to help a LOT. The 'kids' could throw in a blowout, saving the arms Bochy depended on for a close game (there *were* a bunch of close games in Sep). I think that a lot of teams would have done the same thing.

 

[calsnowskier]

I disagree a *little* bit. It's not as if they called him up Sep 20th. A couple pitchers were called up Sep 1 and a few more on Sep 2. It seems that it was the right time to call him up and evaluate him (along with other arms) : Sep, when the bullpen had had quite a few problems recently, and other arms might be able to help a LOT. The 'kids' could throw in a blowout, saving the arms Bochy depended on for a close game (there *were* a bunch of close games in Sep). I think that a lot of teams would have done the same thing.

I acknowledge that the concerns I had on the move were a stretch, riffing off of Mays' initial post.

However, Bochy was a surprise. He didn't really have a very good '14, so promoting HIM was a little surprising. However, it may have been done because they wanted someone they could DFA after the season with little risk of losing. This is something they have done in the past, and IMHO, is a good, solid strategy.

 

[MarcoPolo]

So, are Q and Baby Boch still in the system?

That was the crux of my question.

With them being "outrighted" and not "DFA'd", what does that mean? I am not sure exactly what happened with that transaction, thus my question.

Ah - I'll give an overview of the issue, in detail.

A team wants to make room on their 40-man, so they pick the player(s) they are going to remove and place them on irrevocable outright waivers (if another team claims them, they can't be pulled back off waivers, and the other team gets them). And technically (in this case, with Q and B) they weren't 'DFAd' - you can only DFA a player to make room on the 40-man for *immediate use* of another player and the 40-man must be full, neither of which was the case.

If any team claims them, they are GONE, for $20K. Claiming team is now responsible for any contract the player may have, or arbitration. Player must be placed on the claiming team's 40-man roster. (Or rather, claiming team must pass him through irrevocable outright waivers to NOT place him on their 40-man. If the claiming team was one of the first, I doubt they take that gamble. If the claiming team was one of the last, they might just take that gamble, and get their $20K back if they 'lose' the player to another team.)

If NOT claimed, the team can decide to just release the player(s) (if there is a contract in place, the Giants are still responsible for it). OR, the Giants can 'outright' the player to the minors.

If the player has never been outrighted before, and has less than 3 years of service time, he MUST go (or he is basically out of MLB baseball - they Giants still own 'the rights' and he can't play for any other MLB team unless the Giants trade him to that team).

If the player has already been outrighted before and has less than 3 years of service time, the player may say :
(a) no way, I'm outta here, I'm a free agent. If he does this the Giants are off the hook for any contract - they owe the player nothing.
(b) OK, I'll go, but if I'm not on the 40-man by the end of the season, I will be a free agent. The team is no longer responsible for any contract he has if he elects to be a FA at the end of the season.
(c) say nothing and just go - he's now just like any other minor leaguer, except that the Giants are still responsible for any existing contract.

If the player has at least 3 years of service time, but less than 5 years of service time, then it doesn't matter if he hasn't been outrighted before, he gets all choices (a), (b), (c) above.

If the player has at least 5 years of service time, (a), (b), (c) above all apply EXCEPT THAT the team remains responsible for anything in his contract. In effect he can say "I'm not going, and you're still going to pay me". (Unless he is signed by another team to a major league contract - the 'new' team must pay the league minimum, and the old team is responsible for the remainder.)

So.

Quiroz was outrighted in 2013. He also has a tad over 3 years of service time. If no team claims him, he can become a FA. Since he has no long-term contract, he doesn't lose any money and might want to pursue his options elsewhere.

Bochy (Brett) has about 28 days of service time, and has never been outrighted before. If he is not claimed by another team, he MUST stay a Giant.

So. In the case of Q, if he isn't claimed, it is Q's choice. In the case of B, if he isn't claimed, he remains a Giant. So the answer is "nobody knows yet".

But I think somebody is going to claim Bochy. He had a WHIP of 0.9 in the majors (yeah, SSS)! He also pitched really well in Fresno last year (2013). If nobody claims him for $20K, that's just insane. I think that last round draft picks get more than $20K! The only thing is that since he has spent at least one day on a major league team, his minimum minor league salary is higher : somewhere around $65K, IIRC. But, that's cheap for a guy with that many strikeouts (it's the walks that kill him). SOME TEAM is going to take him on as a project. He's at least as good as a third-round draft pick, and a lot cheaper. But since he has been on the 40-man, he only has 3 waivers (3 years) instead of he (max) six that they would get with a new draft pick. SOME team is going to grab him - he is *cheap* for what they might get. He could be in a major league bullpen next year, and a setup man the year after. Look for Houston, Miami, Oakland, Cubbies, Pirates, Indians, Rays, Mets, Padres, Mariners to ALL put in a waiver claim. i wouldn't be surprised if he's an Astro in 10 days.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Oops, I was wrong about minimum salary. $65K was the LAST agreement. Under the current agreement, the minimum minor league salary for a guy with major league service will be *at least* $81,500 in 2015 (it will probably go up with cost of living increase).

 

[calsnowskier]

Great write-up (as always). Thanks.

So basically, when you are "outrighted", you are actually placed on waivers, correct? So to say someone is "outrighted" (at least at this time of year) is essentially the same as getting DFA's during the regular season.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Great write-up (as always). Thanks.

So basically, when you are "outrighted", you are actually placed on waivers, correct? So to say someone is "outrighted" (at least at this time of year) is essentially the same as getting DFA's during the regular season.

well, unfortunately, most of the sports writers are lazy, and don't describe it correctly.

A player designated for assignment is removed from his club’s 40-man roster and, within the next 10 days, traded, released or, if he clears waivers, assigned to the minor leagues. If nobody wants him (everybody says no, or the 10 days have gone by) he is then outrighted to the minors (if the team wants to keep him).

So DFA is MORE THAN outrighting a player to the minors, but if the player makes it through the DFA 10 days, he is then outrighted to the minors, and that process and the rules for that are the rules for outrighting to the minors. DFA is *more* than outright waivers, is I guess what I'm trying to say, but it can end with an outright assignment (if the team keeps him).

 

[MarcoPolo]

So basically, when you are "outrighted", you are actually placed on waivers, correct? So to say someone is "outrighted" (at least at this time of year) is essentially the same as getting DFA's during the regular season.

Teams wishing to outright a player (take him off the 40-man) use irrevocable outright waivers. "outrighting" is the act of actually SENDING him to the minors if he makes it through outright waivers. There are many different types of waivers, with different rules. DFA'ing a player has additional rules and possibilities and processes and requirements.

 

[tzill]

Ah - I'll give an overview of the issue, in detail.

A team wants to make room on their 40-man, so they pick the player(s) they are going to remove and place them on irrevocable outright waivers (if another team claims them, they can't be pulled back off waivers, and the other team gets them). And technically (in this case, with Q and B) they weren't 'DFAd' - you can only DFA a player to make room on the 40-man for *immediate use* of another player and the 40-man must be full, neither of which was the case.

If any team claims them, they are GONE, for $20K. Claiming team is now responsible for any contract the player may have, or arbitration. Player must be placed on the claiming team's 40-man roster. (Or rather, claiming team must pass him through irrevocable outright waivers to NOT place him on their 40-man. If the claiming team was one of the first, I doubt they take that gamble. If the claiming team was one of the last, they might just take that gamble, and get their $20K back if they 'lose' the player to another team.)

If NOT claimed, the team can decide to just release the player(s) (if there is a contract in place, the Giants are still responsible for it). OR, the Giants can 'outright' the player to the minors.

If the player has never been outrighted before, and has less than 3 years of service time, he MUST go (or he is basically out of MLB baseball - they Giants still own 'the rights' and he can't play for any other MLB team unless the Giants trade him to that team).

If the player has already been outrighted before and has less than 3 years of service time, the player may say :
(a) no way, I'm outta here, I'm a free agent. If he does this the Giants are off the hook for any contract - they owe the player nothing.
(b) OK, I'll go, but if I'm not on the 40-man by the end of the season, I will be a free agent. The team is no longer responsible for any contract he has if he elects to be a FA at the end of the season.
(c) say nothing and just go - he's now just like any other minor leaguer, except that the Giants are still responsible for any existing contract.

If the player has at least 3 years of service time, but less than 5 years of service time, then it doesn't matter if he hasn't been outrighted before, he gets all choices (a), (b), (c) above.

If the player has at least 5 years of service time, (a), (b), (c) above all apply EXCEPT THAT the team remains responsible for anything in his contract. In effect he can say "I'm not going, and you're still going to pay me". (Unless he is signed by another team to a major league contract - the 'new' team must pay the league minimum, and the old team is responsible for the remainder.)

So.

Quiroz was outrighted in 2013. He also has a tad over 3 years of service time. If no team claims him, he can become a FA. Since he has no long-term contract, he doesn't lose any money and might want to pursue his options elsewhere.

Bochy (Brett) has about 28 days of service time, and has never been outrighted before. If he is not claimed by another team, he MUST stay a Giant.

So. In the case of Q, if he isn't claimed, it is Q's choice. In the case of B, if he isn't claimed, he remains a Giant. So the answer is "nobody knows yet".

But I think somebody is going to claim Bochy. He had a WHIP of 0.9 in the majors (yeah, SSS)! He also pitched really well in Fresno last year (2013). If nobody claims him for $20K, that's just insane. I think that last round draft picks get more than $20K! The only thing is that since he has spent at least one day on a major league team, his minimum minor league salary is higher : somewhere around $65K, IIRC. But, that's cheap for a guy with that many strikeouts (it's the walks that kill him). SOME TEAM is going to take him on as a project. He's at least as good as a third-round draft pick, and a lot cheaper. But since he has been on the 40-man, he only has 3 waivers (3 years) instead of he (max) six that they would get with a new draft pick. SOME team is going to grab him - he is *cheap* for what they might get. He could be in a major league bullpen next year, and a setup man the year after. Look for Houston, Miami, Oakland, Cubbies, Pirates, Indians, Rays, Mets, Padres, Mariners to ALL put in a waiver claim. i wouldn't be surprised if he's an Astro in 10 days.

Awesome explanation, thanks Marco!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Corrections (to first post of thread) :

- Carbonell signed a major league contract in 2014 and was immediately put on the 40-man, then optioned to the minors. He only has 2 options left.

- Brown was added to the 40-man in Nov 2013. He spent most of 2014 in Fresno, so he must have used an option (although I could find no record of it). As additional proof, he was "called up" in Sep and NOT "contract purchased" or "selected the contract", so he WAS on the 40-man in Sep. He only has 2 options left.

- Juan Perez was optioned to minors in both 2013 & 2014 (and spent at least 20 days there). He has 1 option left.

Edit: Oh, and could you add "date last edited" text in the post? I think that would be useful. Thx.

 

[calsnowskier]

Edit: Oh, and could you add "date last edited" text in the post? I think that would be useful. Thx.

To which post? the roster in post 1?

When a post is edited, it automatically says the edit date at the bottom of the post.

 

[MarcoPolo]

To which post? the roster in post 1?

When a post is edited, it automatically says the edit date at the bottom of the post.

Oops, you're right, my bad.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Corrections (to first post of thread) :

- Carbonell signed a major league contract in 2014 and was immediately put on the 40-man, then optioned to the minors. He only has 2 options left.

- Brown was added to the 40-man in Nov 2013. He spent most of 2014 in Fresno, so he must have used an option (although I could find no record of it). As additional proof, he was "called up" in Sep and NOT "contract purchased" or "selected the contract", so he WAS on the 40-man before Sep. He only has 2 options left.

- Juan Perez was optioned to minors in both 2013 & 2014 (and spent at least 20 days there). He has 1 option left.

 

[calsnowskier]

Corrections (to first post of thread) :

- Carbonell signed a major league contract in 2014 and was immediately put on the 40-man, then optioned to the minors. He only has 2 options left.

- Brown was added to the 40-man in Nov 2013. He spent most of 2014 in Fresno, so he must have used an option (although I could find no record of it). As additional proof, he was "called up" in Sep and NOT "contract purchased" or "selected the contract", so he WAS on the 40-man before Sep. He only has 2 options left.

- Juan Perez was optioned to minors in both 2013 & 2014 (and spent at least 20 days there). He has 1 option left.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Corrections (to first post of thread) :

- Carbonell signed a major league contract in 2014 and was immediately put on the 40-man, then optioned to the minors. He only has 2 options left.

- Brown was added to the 40-man in Nov 2013. He spent most of 2014 in Fresno, so he must have used an option (although I could find no record of it). As additional proof, he was "called up" in Sep and NOT "contract purchased" or "selected the contract", so he WAS on the 40-man before Sep. He only has 2 options left.

- Juan Perez was optioned to minors in both 2013 & 2014 (and spent at least 20 days there). He has 1 option left.

Actually, something occurred to me on the drive home tonight. Carbonell may end up getting a total of four option years (this is a special case). A player may be eligible for a fourth option year if he has been optioned in three seasons but does not yet have five full seasons of professional experience. A full season is defined as being on an active pro roster for at least 90 days in a season. Since Carbonell was signed mid-June (AND he didn't play right away) there's NO WAY he was on a pro roster for 90 days this year. So the Giants will be able to option him to the minors 3 more times (seasons) between now and the end of the 2019 season. Although Carbonell has used up an option in 2014, he *probably* will get three more (provided being on the Cuban team isn't considered a "pro roster").

 

[MarcoPolo]

Actually, something occurred to me on the drive home tonight. Carbonell may end up getting a total of four option years (this is a special case). A player may be eligible for a fourth option year if he has been optioned in three seasons but does not yet have five full seasons of professional experience. A full season is defined as being on an active pro roster for at least 90 days in a season. Since Carbonell was signed mid-June (AND he didn't play right away) there's NO WAY he was on a pro roster for 90 days this year. So the Giants will be able to option him to the minors 3 more times (seasons) between now and the end of the 2019 season. Although Carbonell has used up an option in 2014, he *probably* will get three more (provided being on the Cuban team isn't considered a "pro roster").

Carbonell played 40 days in the AFL, and he played 31 games (combined) between Ariz Rookie League and San Jose (probably about 40 games on the roster).