Crabtree

[imac_21]

He's a sprinter means that he is fast, nothing else and we all know that he is fast so posting that fact doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Please tell me how the following is true:
The 49ers can get a player that will average the second most yards per kickoff return and the 4th most average yards per punt return for the league minimum and that the Niners can upgrade from that quite easily


Ginn is a detriment to the team at any cost and Patrick Willis is no better than Bowman.

Wowzers

Please show me where I said we could duplicate Ginn's return stats. I said we could take a slight downgrade there while improving the offense.

And where the fuck did the Willis/Bowman thing come from?

Also, Ginn didn't make the league minimum this year. He made approximately double the league minimum. He will get more on the open market this year.

We also have a FA in Carlos Rogers. Would you sacrifice in the return game to retain Rogers? How about Goldson (another FA). What about at QB? I think it's safe to assume Smith is in for a raise.

Where do you prioritized this incredible weapon we have in Ted Ginn? You talk about him as though he's irreplaceable.

 

[imac_21]

You said the Niners could upgrade for the minimum.

At WR. Not at RS.

 

[imac_21]

Ginn is a #6 WR in the NFL?

Since when did #4 WRs in the NFL have such a freeking high bar?

The #4 WR on a team who is much like the Niners, the Ravens, has 4 catches for 46 yards all season.

The #4 WR on the Lions has 22 rec for 179 yards; and tehy pass a heck of a lot more than the Niners.

The #4 receiver on the Steelers has 22 catches for 288 yards.

Ginn has averaged 409.4 yards per season over 5 years. He had 14 catches for 220 yards this year. Sounds like a #4 WR to me! He dropped a lot of balls. How many did he drop? How many did Crabby drop last year or this year? What's teh drop percentage comparison? If it's close does that mean the Niners should cut Crabby?

How many starts did the #4 WR on the Ravens get this year? How about the Lions? The Steelers? Calling Ginn our #4 WR this year is an enormous misnomer. He started 3 games, and was the #3 WR for many others. If Ginn was our #4, Williams was our #5.

So our #4 WR caught 19 passes (not 14) for 220 yards and 0 TDs. He had a long of 33 (that's our incredible deep threat. The 3rd lowest average per catch among WRs and TEs as well at a whopping 11.6)

Our #5 WR, Kyle Williams, caught 20 passes for 241 yards and 3 TDs. He started 1 game (and was injured in it).

How did our #5 WR catch more passes, collect more yards, score more TDs and manage a higher YPC than our #4 WR?

In 1 less game no less!!!

 

[sayheykid1]

At WR. Not at RS.

I thought you were talking about a return man.

Oh well. I think you are overstating to make a point, something I too have done many times.

 

[sayheykid1]

Please show me where I said we could duplicate Ginn's return stats. I said we could take a slight downgrade there while improving the offense.

And where the fuck did the Willis/Bowman thing come from?

Also, Ginn didn't make the league minimum this year. He made approximately double the league minimum. He will get more on the open market this year.

We also have a FA in Carlos Rogers. Would you sacrifice in the return game to retain Rogers? How about Goldson (another FA). What about at QB? I think it's safe to assume Smith is in for a raise.

Where do you prioritized this incredible weapon we have in Ted Ginn? You talk about him as though he's irreplaceable.

You wrote:
I'd probably let him walk no matter the price.
I don't think the return game gets hit all that much, if at all, if we go with Hunter, Williams or a draft pick.
Just because we've been horrible at the position, doesn't mean we should settle on decent.
We can get exactly what we get out of Ted Ginn for league minimum. We can upgrade at that position quite easily.
He's one of the better return guys in the sense that he's in the top half. But he's not top 10.
He practically never makes guys miss.
While you're at it, watch how many times he stumbles on his own.


I talk about Ginn as a very good return man while you call him average at best and easily replaceable, a guy who can't make people miss (even with speed).
If it came down to Rogers, Goldson or Smith or Ginn, he would be last on the list but the Niners didn't come close to spending all they could this year and I am not sure that they intend to spend as much as they possibly could next year either. I'd throw a lot of money at Rogers and Goldson because they are going to be in high demand. I would be careful overbidding for Smith because I don't think there is going to be a huge demand for him as a starting candidate. With Ginn, I would keep him for what they are paying him now to be our return guy and an extra receiver.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Iguana, you are just repeating with prejudice an old and boring reputation that barely applies; and, concentration is arguably not part of having good hands - part of catching passes yes.

Good hands or soft hands as they are sometimes referred is a technique a mechanical process of receiving the ball with your hands and bringing the ball into your body, not fighting the ball.

The opposite of soft or good hands is would be brick or stone hands. Does Ginn have hands of stone - fuck no! And that is all I'm saying, Ginn has good hands as does Morgan. Crabtree's have really improved this year but Davis' hands are still suspect - much more so than Ginn.

So why does Ginn drop passes - lack of concentration - it's mental not mechanical, his mechanics, while not perfect, are fine so stop saying he has bad hands when he doesn't.

What Ginn did or didn't do last year or even last month is of no concern to me if he is improving and with his work ethic he has improved, and I believe will continue to improve, which is one reason I want to keep him.

However, just as with Crabtree until he shakes the drops he will have to deal with old, outdated and often undeserved criticism. But lets at least try to get it accurate.

concentration is part of having good hand-eye coordination. wr's don't just magically turn into great pass catchers later in their career, they either have it or they don't.

ginn is a #4/5 wr that stretches the d. he runs a 40 yard dash and that is about it for his route running.

 

[CalamityX11]

The delight of debates/discussions....

glad we checked in our spears and mallets!

 

[MW49ers5]

concentration is part of having good hand-eye coordination. wr's don't just magically turn into great pass catchers later in their career, they either have it or they don't.

ginn is a #4/5 wr that stretches the d. he runs a 40 yard dash and that is about it for his route running.

Ahhh, so you are a newbie 49er fan - well, welcome to the fold - Jerry Rice will now show you around.

As for his routes, I think his routes are just fine, but you seem to know more so perhaps you can tell me what was wrong with the first two routes he ran vs. Dallas? What was wrong with those sideline routes that Smith overthrew, or the one in Baltimore on the 4th down or the 2nd & 4th routes vs. StL?

I have some questions about those routes that perhaps you can help me with - Thanks!

 

[vvoland]

]Ahhh, so you are a newbie 49er fan - well, welcome to the fold - Jerry Rice will now show you around.[/B]

As for his routes, I think his routes are just fine, but you seem to know more so perhaps you can tell me what was wrong with the first two routes he ran vs. Dallas? What was wrong with those sideline routes that Smith overthrew, or the one in Baltimore on the 4th down or the 2nd & 4th routes vs. StL?

I have some questions about those routes that perhaps you can help me with - Thanks!

why must you belittle niner fans who disagree with your analysis. i'm not sure if there's an analyst or niner fan aside from you who's this positive on ginn's hands or route running ability.

my problem with ginn's routes are three fold. a. i've yet to see him run across the middle and make a tough catch in traffic. b. he takes poor angles on deep balls and there are at least two plays where he had a step or two, the ball was thrown to him and he either lost track of it or took a poor angle to the ball. i can't tell you the game or down/distance but i haven't charted each of ginn's targets and if i could/had i would provide the details [i've watched every game this year on my computer from eastern europe]. c. he looks back to the qb at inappropriate times instead of running through his route like he should.

i asked a question earlier in this thread and am still curious as to what you think. to repeat, do you feel confident in our WRs going into next season? would you look to upgrade that position or do you imagine crabs/ginn as the starters and are fine with the duo? as i stated earlier, i like crabs as the no 2 guy. i like williams and/or morgan as the slot/no3 guy. i don't mind ginn as the 4th receiver to stretch the field but he has to improve in a number of areas.. primarily catching the ball and tracking it deep. that said, we do not have a no. 1 threat and i would definitely look to upgrade the position via draft or FA. i think VJ, colston, or bowe would give a huge boost to this offense. i don't see ginn being able to provide that type of upgrade.. no matter how much i once wished he could.

 

[9er4life]

I thought this thread was about Crabtree???? lol

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Listen up, worm - The statement was 'my' statement, I know exactly what I said and precisely why I said it and so do you. But instead of being a man and owning your lie you continue to perpetuate it. Instead of offering the context behind the comments you continue repeating the comments.

Not only do you know what the context of the principal statement was, you also know what I said in the succedding discussion as well. Yet, instead of just admitting that 'being better than Crabtree' had nothing to do with the comment you tuck your tail and hide.

Real classy, Crimson.

I'll just respond to this one for now. If I have time, I'll get to the others. Again, you start off with name-calling. What was it you were saying about classiness? You've sure got it in spades.

I have quoted you directly, about Crabtree relative to the other receivers on our team, and about Ginn's potential to be our #1 receiver. Here they are yet again, in your exact words.

Responding to my comment that we were missing our top two WRs in the second game of the season:

If you are referring to Crabtree, he is not one of our 'top two receivers'. I would place each of, Walker, Davis, Ginn, Williams and Morgan on a level equal to or above that of Crabtree.

In this thread:

As for Ginn, I have zero worries about Ginn in all phases of his game; with, perhaps the exception of making the occasional critical catch. If Ginn could improve his concentration - he could be our #1 WR hands down.

You may know what you mean. I am interpreting the plain meaning of your express words and have REPEATEDLY stated that if I am misinterpreting you then I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

I would interpret the first statement to reflect a belief that every guy you list is (or was, as you may have changed your mind in the months since) as good or better than Crabtree. There isn't any ambiguity in your statement, and the context only strengthens that interpretation.

I would interpret your second statement to indicate that you think Ginn is quite close to being our #1 receiver, as you have zero worries about Ginn in all phases of the game. This is somewhat curious as, immediately after saying you have zero worries, you list a worry. That is at least one and thus not zero. That inconsistency aside, MY INTERPRETATION is that you believe Ginn is close to being our #1 guy. Your statement about his potential as a #1 guy does have some ambiguity, as it's not clear how difficult you believe it will be to improve his concentration. Drawing on the context, though, specifically your zero worries, it seems to me that you think he's pretty close.

More recently, you said that Ginn has "as much or more athleticism as any of our WRs," "runs some of the best routes," "has very good hands," "is fastest from a dead start of ANY of our WRs," has "excellent, perhaps even the best awareness of any of our other WRs," a "very low propensity to go out of bounds," "excellent range, better than Crabtree in the low zone," and "as much toughness as any of our WRs and is just as likely to go over the middle or up the ladder." None of these are ambiguous, so I take them at their face value.

Taking these statements together, as you have never recanted any of them, MY INTERPRETATION is that you believe Ginn is as good or better than Crabtree. As I believe Crabtree is clearly our #1 WR, and I believe that you believe that Ginn is better than Crabtree, MY INTERPRETATION is that you believe Ginn is very close to being our #1, if not our #1 already. Further factor in that you believe Ginn is the fastest WR, runs great routes, has great hands, may have the best awareness, has excellent range, and as much toughness as any of our other receiver. As these comprise most of the skills that go into being a good WR, and that Ginn's ONLY flaw is an occasional lack of concentration - a trait which all our other WRs share - and it certainly seems like you think Ginn is either our best receiver or very close. If you don't believe that, I'm a bit confused as to why not, given the arguments you have made here.

These are my interpretations of your statements. If you meant something different, you didn't express it very clearly. But if that is the case, explain what you actually meant and how I have misinterpreted your words. If you can do it without throwing out insults, that would be even better. I'll happily put up with the insults to get a straight-forward answer, though.

 

[CalamityX11]

I thought this thread was about Crabtree???? lol

We touch on everything about anything here...

Keep our minds sharp!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Ahhh, so you are a newbie 49er fan - well, welcome to the fold - Jerry Rice will now show you around.

As for his routes, I think his routes are just fine, but you seem to know more so perhaps you can tell me what was wrong with the first two routes he ran vs. Dallas? What was wrong with those sideline routes that Smith overthrew, or the one in Baltimore on the 4th down or the 2nd & 4th routes vs. StL?

I have some questions about those routes that perhaps you can help me with - Thanks!

Jerry Rice got over his drops after his first season. Ginn has had five and it's been a constant thread.

 

[9er4life]

Here's my take...Ginn has been a nice addition to the 49ers, and this year with all of the injuries he's taken on a larger role. But he is what he is in terms of a WR, he's not going to get any better(IMO) at this point. If he was, he would've already done so. He's a return man that provides depth at WR.

 

[MW49ers5]

Jerry Rice got over his drops after his first season. Ginn has had five and it's been a constant thread.

Sorry, perhaps I should have used Carlos Rogers as an example or maybe in a couple years I can use Michael Crabtree?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Sorry, perhaps I should have used Carlos Rogers as an example or maybe in a couple years I can use Michael Crabtree?

Possibly. Of course, Rogers was always a pretty good cover corner and his primary job is not to catch balls. Jury is still out on Crabtree, I suppose. Davis has certainly improved his ability to catch the ball, though he still has lapses. Ginn has never really shown even improvement in that area, though. We'll see what happens as his career progresses.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Ahhh, so you are a newbie 49er fan - well, welcome to the fold - Jerry Rice will now show you around.

As for his routes, I think his routes are just fine, but you seem to know more so perhaps you can tell me what was wrong with the first two routes he ran vs. Dallas? What was wrong with those sideline routes that Smith overthrew, or the one in Baltimore on the 4th down or the 2nd & 4th routes vs. StL?

I have some questions about those routes that perhaps you can help me with - Thanks!

u didn't just bring up rice when talking about ginn....

please tell me how rice had bad hands? ginn has been around far too long now to improve in terms of catching the ball and running routes. it took rice one year to adjust to the nfl, ginn has never had rice's skillset.

 

[MW49ers5]

Possibly. Of course, Rogers was always a pretty good cover corner and his primary job is not to catch balls. Jury is still out on Crabtree, I suppose. Davis has certainly improved his ability to catch the ball, though he still has lapses. Ginn has never really shown even improvement in that area, though. We'll see what happens as his career progresses.

I understand what Rogers' primary job is, however that is inconsequential to my point - which is that Iguana is incorrect. According to Iguana, "wr's don't just magically turn into great pass catchers later in their career, they either have it or they don't."

Since you defended Iguana against my use of Jerry Rice to counter that position would it be fair to assume you also believe the same way as Iguana?

As to your claim that "Ginn has never really shown even improvement in that area, though." Do you know what his drop percentages are for the last three years? And if you don't know the answer to that then how can you say Ginn has never really shown improvement?

Look, Crimson, it seems to me that you just don't like Ginn. You really have no particular reason, at least not any that you can substantiate, but, for whatever reason or reasons you just don't like Ted Ginn. If I am right, then for what its worth, I can work with that.

There is no sense in arguing with someone who is operating from a position that is fundamentally instinctual and there is no way to say that your instincts are wrong or that my analysis is correct. We are arguing from two completely different positions and only time will determine who is right and who is wrong.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I understand what Rogers' primary job is, however that is inconsequential to my point - which is that Iguana is incorrect. According to Iguana, "wr's don't just magically turn into great pass catchers later in their career, they either have it or they don't."

Since you defended Iguana against my use of Jerry Rice to counter that position would it be fair to assume you also believe the same way as Iguana?

As to your claim that "Ginn has never really shown even improvement in that area, though." Do you know what his drop percentages are for the last three years? And if you don't know the answer to that then how can you say Ginn has never really shown improvement?

Look, Crimson, it seems to me that you just don't like Ginn. You really have no particular reason, at least not any that you can substantiate, but, for whatever reason or reasons you just don't like Ted Ginn. If I am right, then for what its worth, I can work with that.

There is no sense in arguing with someone who is operating from a position that is fundamentally instinctual and there is no way to say that your instincts are wrong or that my analysis is correct. We are arguing from two completely different positions and only time will determine who is right and who is wrong.

Of course players can improve their hands. But how often does a guy show marked improvement catching the football after five years in the league?

As for Ginn's drop percentage, that's a stat. I thought you didn't like stats. I think Ginn hasn't improved because I have watched him drop quite a few catchable balls this season.

I have said repeatedly that I like Ginn as a returner and for what he brings to the game on end-arounds. I also think he's a third receiver at best, and ideally a fourth. I'm pretty sure I've provided reasons for this belief at length. Oh, but that's right, you say he's got great hands and toughness, goes across the middle regularly, has tremendous awareness, and never steps out rather than fighting for yards. So that's got to be true.

 

[Flyingiguana]

I understand what Rogers' primary job is, however that is inconsequential to my point - which is that Iguana is incorrect. According to Iguana, "wr's don't just magically turn into great pass catchers later in their career, they either have it or they don't."

Since you defended Iguana against my use of Jerry Rice to counter that position would it be fair to assume you also believe the same way as Iguana?

As to your claim that "Ginn has never really shown even improvement in that area, though." Do you know what his drop percentages are for the last three years? And if you don't know the answer to that then how can you say Ginn has never really shown improvement?

Look, Crimson, it seems to me that you just don't like Ginn. You really have no particular reason, at least not any that you can substantiate, but, for whatever reason or reasons you just don't like Ted Ginn. If I am right, then for what its worth, I can work with that.

There is no sense in arguing with someone who is operating from a position that is fundamentally instinctual and there is no way to say that your instincts are wrong or that my analysis is correct. We are arguing from two completely different positions and only time will determine who is right and who is wrong.

how am i incorrect? rice had good hands in college. had a rough rookie season then turned into a pro bowler.

ginn had crappy hands in college. couldn't catch a cold for 5 years, yet u seem to think he can turn things around after all these years? heck, he can't even find the ball in the air. maybe they should paint it neon pink for him