Crabtree

[h0ckeysk83r]

What Ginn is as a returner has nothing to do with how easily replaced his production is.

To say his receiving stats are due to the offense is ridiculous since Kyle Williams put up better numbers in the same offense with less games.

Ginn does nothing to make him the least bit worthwhile ON OFFENSE.

Does he have value on ST? Yeah. Can we get a somewhat similar result from someone else? Yes.

Lastly, again, stop calling Ginn a #4 (this goes to everyone). You may feel he SHOULD be a 4th WR, but he was not.

There is no way he will be the #4 WR next week. He will be either the #2 or #3. Crabtree will be the 1, Williams and Ginn will be 2/3.

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs? Our TEs were targeted on 130 passes this year (Davis and Walker only). Crabtree by himself was targeted 114 times. Walker only had 2 more targets than Ginn all season. You can't claim that we are a TE-centric offense and that Walker (our 2nd TE) had lost of opportunities while Ginn had few. It was 35 (Walker) to 33 (Ginn). Ginn actually had the 3rd most targets at WR for us this year with only one less than Edwards' 34.

I would love it if someone would explain to me how that makes him our #4 WR.

Well as of right now and how thin we are, Ginn is our 2/3rd WR.

But if we resign morgan and Ginn and pick up a player in free agency then Ginn becomes our # 4/5 also depending if we pick up a guy in the draft.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Then don't call him a #6

 

[NinerSickness]

What Ginn is as a returner has nothing to do with how easily replaced his production is.

To say his receiving stats are due to the offense is ridiculous since Kyle Williams put up better numbers in the same offense with less games.

Fewer games. And all you showed there is that Kyle Williams is a better WR than Ginn, and I would tend to agree with that. I think Williams could be the #3 Wr on a good offense.

Does he have value on ST? Yeah. Can we get a somewhat similar result from someone else? Yes.

Hell no they can't! Who are the Niners going to sign who's as good as Ginn as a RS? Desean Jackson?

Lastly, again, stop calling Ginn a #4 (this goes to everyone). You may feel he SHOULD be a 4th WR, but he was not..

I'm not saying he was a #4 WR. I say he would be a GOOD #4 WR.

There is no way he will be the #4 WR next week. He will be either the #2 or #3. Crabtree will be the 1, Williams and Ginn will be 2/3.

And?

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs? Our TEs were targeted on 130 passes this year (Davis and Walker only).

Add Peele and that's 134. Staley & Soap were lined up as TEs too, so that's 136. 30.56% of the passes going to TEs isn't a lot? What's the NFL average?

I would love it if someone would explain to me how that makes him our #4 WR.

It doens't. My point is that he SHOULD BE the #4 WR and that he'd make a good one.

I'd like to see... say just hypotheticaly... Desean Jackson & Crabby as the starters, Kyle Williams as the #3 and Ginn as the #4. Is that such a bad idea? (substitute Desean for a #1 WR who's available if need be).

 

[Flyingiguana]

screw desean. i don't wanna see that dipshit on this team. if we don't resign ginn we need to go after eddie royal who would be an actual useful #4.

we still need to sign someone, either a legit #1 or someone like lloyd. i don't wanna see williams as our #3 next year. although if we draft a tight end like dwayne allen and/or sign john carlson we won't really need 3 or 4 wr's.

 

[NinerSickness]

i don't wanna see williams as our #3 next year.

Why not?

 

[Flyingiguana]

Why not?

i don't think he's good enough. he's a depth guy that can step in if others are hurt

 

[imac_21]

Well as of right now and how thin we are, Ginn is our 2/3rd WR.

But if we resign morgan and Ginn and pick up a player in free agency then Ginn becomes our # 4/5 also depending if we pick up a guy in the draft.

Exactly, right now he's a 2/3. The only time he's been anything less than a #3 was last year. Yet Sick wants to compare his numbers to other #4s to declare him a good #4.

 

[imac_21]

Then don't call him a #6

I'm talking about his talent and skill set. Sickness is saying he's a good #4 because of his stats, which were not created as a #4 WR.

 

[imac_21]

Fewer games. And all you showed there is that Kyle Williams is a better WR than Ginn, and I would tend to agree with that. I think Williams could be the #3 Wr on a good offense.



Hell no they can't! Who are the Niners going to sign who's as good as Ginn as a RS? Desean Jackson?



I'm not saying he was a #4 WR. I say he would be a GOOD #4 WR.



And?



Add Peele and that's 134. Staley & Soap were lined up as TEs too, so that's 136. 30.56% of the passes going to TEs isn't a lot? What's the NFL average?



It doens't. My point is that he SHOULD BE the #4 WR and that he'd make a good one.

I'd like to see... say just hypotheticaly... Desean Jackson & Crabby as the starters, Kyle Williams as the #3 and Ginn as the #4. Is that such a bad idea? (substitute Desean for a #1 WR who's available if need be).

Sick, it's real simple. You keep using his stats to justify his ranking as a good #4. You're comparing stats he's produced as a #2 and #3 to other #4 WRs to say he's a good #4. That's ridiculous.

That's like saying Derek Loville would have been a great #2 RB because his numbers were better than a lot of #2s when he was in SF and not acknowledging that those stats were put up as the #1 RB.

Soap never lined up as a TE.

You want to know the percentage of passes thrown to TEs, ESPN keeps track of targets now. The math is pretty easy.

 

[NinerSickness]

Sick, it's real simple. You keep using his stats to justify his ranking as a good #4. You're comparing stats he's produced as a #2 and #3 to other #4 WRs to say he's a good #4. That's ridiculous.

Fair enough. He was on the field a lot more than most #4 WRs this year. I get it. I still think he's SIGNIFICANTLY better than Jason Hill & Zeigler; it's just a matter of opinion. When he's been on the field he's been going up against better DBs than he would in a 4 WR set with a #1, Crabby & Williams. The fact that he's struggled against staters & nickel CBs should mean he gets a demotion: obviously. You want to give him like 3 demotions all at once. I think THAT is ridiculous.

You want to know the percentage of passes thrown to TEs, ESPN keeps track of targets now. The math is pretty easy.

You're the one who tried to refute my point with "thrown at" statistics. I thought you had a point by mentioning the numbers; I guess not. Ok, I'll get back to this point tommorow & see if the Niners throw to TEs a lot...

 

[EaseUrStorm]

I'm talking about his talent and skill set. Sickness is saying he's a good #4 because of his stats, which were not created as a #4 WR.

Exactly. I'd say the vast majority are talking about his skill set as a #4 WR.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Fair enough. He was on the field a lot more than most #4 WRs this year. I get it. I still think he's SIGNIFICANTLY better than Jason Hill & Zeigler; it's just a matter of opinion. When he's been on the field he's been going up against better DBs than he would in a 4 WR set with a #1, Crabby & Williams. The fact that he's struggled against staters & nickel CBs should mean he gets a demotion: obviously. You want to give him like 3 demotions all at once. I think THAT is ridiculous.



You're the one who tried to refute my point with "thrown at" statistics. I thought you had a point by mentioning the numbers; I guess not. Ok, I'll get back to this point tommorow & see if the Niners throw to TEs a lot...

I'm with you. Ginn > than a typical 4 you'll find on the street. He brings a specialized skill set hard to find on the street. Until someone displaces his limitations he doesn't need to get the boot.

 

[NinerSickness]

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs?

The Niners target the TEs 30.34% of the time. Let's compare to other teams. Going in order off the ESPN website starting witth the Bills:

Bills: 10.34% of the time
Dolphins: 11.94% of the time
Patriots: 38.73% of the time
Jets: 24.31% of the time
Broncos: 12.39% of the time...

 

[NinerSickness]

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs?

This is going to have to go in multiple posts 'cause I can't edit longer than 10 min...

The Niners target the TEs 30.34% of the time. Let's compare to other teams. Going in order off the ESPN website starting witth the Bills:

Bills: 10.34%
Dolphins: 11.94%
Patriots: 38.73%
Jets: 24.31% of
Broncos: 12.39%
Chiefs: 10.40% (I assumed tehir OT lined up as a TE)
Raiders: 12.98%
Chargers: 24.40%
Ravens: 26.65%
Bengals: 21.12%

 

[NinerSickness]

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs?

The Niners target the TEs 30.34% (I subtracted the attempt to Soap) of the time. Let's compare to other teams. Going in order off the ESPN website starting witth the Bills:

Bills: 10.34%
Dolphins: 11.94%
Patriots: 38.73%
Jets: 24.31% of
Broncos: 12.39%
Chiefs: 10.40% (I assumed, as with all teams, their OT lined up as a TE)
Raiders: 12.98%
Chargers: 24.40%
Ravens: 26.65%
Bengals: 21.12%
Browns: 27.19%
Steelers: 18.00%
Texans: 26.77%
Colts: 20.22%
Jaguars: 23.02%
Titans: 17.26%

So only 1 team in the AFC targets their TEs more than the Niners do (The Patriots). Do I have to do the NFC or do you retract your criticism?

 

[NinerSickness]

I want to summarize my point about Ginn...

Ginn isnot a good #2 or #3 WR. I think he'd be a fine #4 WR. He opens up the offense to reverses, deep plays, quick pitch & runs, etc. He's a veteran WR; most 4th WRs are rookies or 2nd year players trying to climb the ladder; those guys are big question marks.

The Niners target their TEs more than any team in the AFC except the Pats. They have 2 good receiving TEs. I would guess they pass the ball less than all but a couple of teams in the entire NFL. The amount of times 4 WRs are on the field is very small, and if Ginn were the 4th WR he'd be going up against a CB who's probably not very good (unlike this year when he went up against mostly starters or nickel CBs).

imac you think Jason Hill or Zeigler or other scrubs are better WRs than Ginn. I strongly disagree. I would be much happier with Ginn as a #4 there. And maybe a demotion will put some fire under his ass to make him want to get better. If Ginn were as bad as you say he is then why is he ahead of Brett Swain on the depth chart and Zeigler is unemployed?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The Niners target the TEs 30.34% (I subtracted the attempt to Soap) of the time. Let's compare to other teams. Going in order off the ESPN website starting witth the Bills:

Bills: 10.34%
Dolphins: 11.94%
Patriots: 38.73%
Jets: 24.31% of
Broncos: 12.39%
Chiefs: 10.40% (I assumed, as with all teams, their OT lined up as a TE)
Raiders: 12.98%
Chargers: 24.40%
Ravens: 26.65%
Bengals: 21.12%
Browns: 27.19%
Steelers: 18.00%
Texans: 26.77%
Colts: 20.22%
Jaguars: 23.02%
Titans: 17.26%

So only 1 team in the AFC targets their TEs more than the Niners do (The Patriots). Do I have to do the NFC or do you retract your criticism?

I don't see that this strengthens your argument all that much. First, six teams throw over 24% of their passes to the TE, which is a pretty high figure that is in the ballpark of the Niners' 30.0% (subtracting Sopoaga's reception). Beyond that, sure we throw a lot to the TE. That's because our TE is our most dynamic receiver and we have better depth/talent at TE than we do at WR. Harbaugh showed a preference for the TE at Stanford, but he didn't have great WRs. The same is true in SF. Perhaps if Ginn et. al. were better we would throw to them more. As it is, Crabtree has been our only truly reliable WR this season (Morgan was looking fairly reliable before the injury and Williams showed promise in limited opportunities). And to clarify, when I say "reliable," I don't mean that he always caught the ball, just that he showed he was capable of producing on a regular basis.

I don't see how throwing a lot to the TE excuses Ginn's poor production given the opportunities he's had. He has spent a lot of time on the field, and has little to show for it as a receiver. I do agree that he's fine, even pretty good at a #4, though. I like what he brings to the return game and on reverses, and he has improved some areas of his receiving game this season. He's just too damn inconsistent catching the ball.

 

[NinerSickness]

I don't see that this strengthens your argument all that much.

Let me explain. The fact that the Niners throw to the TEs so much means the 4th WR on the roster is even less important than it is on most other teams. Hense Ginn is going to be used extremely rarely if he's a #4 WR. He struggled as a #2 / 3, but he'd do fine as a 4 IMO. Those are smaller shoes he can fill. He'd be going against worse DBs, and he'd be the 4th option. Plus he can do reverses & quicj pitches if the CB gives him a lot of room because of his blazing speed.

I don't see how throwing a lot to the TE excuses Ginn's poor production given the opportunities he's had.

It's not. It's a more of a reason he can handle a demotion. He doesn't deserve 3 demotions like imac says.

 

[imac_21]

Let me explain. The fact that the Niners throw to the TEs so much means the 4th WR on the roster is even less important than it is on most other teams. Hense Ginn is going to be used extremely rarely if he's a #4 WR. He struggled as a #2 / 3, but he'd do fine as a 4 IMO. Those are smaller shoes he can fill. He'd be going against worse DBs, and he'd be the 4th option. Plus he can do reverses & quicj pitches if the CB gives him a lot of room because of his blazing speed.




It's not. It's a more of a reason he can handle a demotion. He doesn't deserve 3 demotions like imac says.

That wasn't your original point the way I understood it. I took it as you saying his numbers were down because of how much we threw to the TEs.

 

[MW49ers5]

I don't see that this strengthens your argument all that much. First, six teams throw over 24% of their passes to the TE, which is a pretty high figure that is in the ballpark of the Niners' 30.0% (subtracting Sopoaga's reception). Beyond that, sure we throw a lot to the TE. That's because our TE is our most dynamic receiver and we have better depth/talent at TE than we do at WR. Harbaugh showed a preference for the TE at Stanford, but he didn't have great WRs. The same is true in SF. Perhaps if Ginn et. al. were better we would throw to them more. As it is, Crabtree has been our only truly reliable WR this season (Morgan was looking fairly reliable before the injury and Williams showed promise in limited opportunities). And to clarify, when I say "reliable," I don't mean that he always caught the ball, just that he showed he was capable of producing on a regular basis.

I don't see how throwing a lot to the TE excuses Ginn's poor production given the opportunities he's had. He has spent a lot of time on the field, and has little to show for it as a receiver. I do agree that he's fine, even pretty good at a #4, though. I like what he brings to the return game and on reverses, and he has improved some areas of his receiving game this season. He's just too damn inconsistent catching the ball.

Not sure how you are quantifying "given the opportunities", Ginn was on the field for just 40% of the plays prior to his injury and what area's of his receiving skills are you now saying he has improved? (Serious Inquiry)