Crabtree

[MW49ers5]

Of course players can improve their hands.

See, we agree with each other 100%
And not one insult was exchanged!

 

[MW49ers5]

how am i incorrect? rice had good hands in college. had a rough rookie season then turned into a pro bowler.

ginn had crappy hands in college. couldn't catch a cold for 5 years, yet u seem to think he can turn things around after all these years? heck, he can't even find the ball in the air. maybe they should paint it neon pink for him

Perhaps for next October?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

my arguments rarely, if ever, overlook anything - you should know this by now.

See, this is a textbook case of you thinking you're smarter than you are again.

Crimson, your continued fascination with my intelligence serves only to confirm you have yet to discover any of your own - I want to encourage you to keep searching. In the mean time, I must ask you to please keep this obsession with my intelligence going as it is great for my ego and gives me a boner like you wouldn't believe!

I'll focus just on Ginn's "very good hands." There was, of course, the INT that went through his hands, off his face, and into the defender's hands. There was the fade in the endzone a couple weeks ago that was in his hands, then through them, then on the ground. There was the fourth-down ball against the Ravens that went right through his hands. Early in the year he dropped at least two balls that were in his hands. Those are off the top of my head. If I get a chance to review film I will, though clips of dropped balls are hard to come by.

Are you talking about Ginn or Crabtree here?? - Because, while the settings may be different the story is identical. And, for the record Crimson, this has NOTHING to do with dropped passes. So don't waste your time with that BS. We all know Ginn, Crabtree & Davis drop passes.

This is about your claim that Ginn has:

poor hands even when concentrating
poor route running (Which, btw here is your quote: [I]"I'll admit, assessing WR routes might be the weakest part of my football knowledge,…"[/I]).
lack of quickness in the short area
lack of strength
lack of awareness
propensity to go out of bounds instead of trying to cut back in.


Out of curiosity, since you have reviewed the film, how many of Ginn's 19 receptions came in between the hashes within 10 yards of the LOS?

Out of curiosity? Seriously!!! Don't give me no stinking curiosity! YOU are the one who has made 6 very succinct claims about Ted Ginn’s horrible qualities as a receiver. With claims as firm as those, I would think you know more about Ginn than I do.


When I said "if he could improve his concentration..." I knew precisely what I was talking about which is why I called you a liar for stating that I implied he was "close" to being a #1 - get it now?

Lie: "To make an untrue statement with intent to deceive." You seem to struggle with this one. For it to be a lie, I have to know it's untrue and intend to deceive. I have no idea how hard or easy you think it is for Ginn to improve his concentration. If you think it will be extremely difficult for him to do so, then he's not likely to be hands-down our #1 receiver anytime soon and this entire discussion is moot.

Oh, okay then, so you just want to go ahead add 'stupid' to your fine resume of personality disorders - Check. Perhaps next time you should not imbue your incompetence into mine or any one else's thoughts until you know what the hell you're talking about.


Given the context of this conversation and past conversations, it certainly seemed that you believe Ginn is or could be our #1 receiver.

Whoops! Wow, that didn't take long. You seem to be imbuing again. See, Crimson, since I have never once intimated that Ginn IS our #1 WR and you damn-well know this, any statement to the contrary is just a another lie - Let's see, you want to just go ahead and blame this one on the pain killers?


I don't have access to Ginn's 33 targets. If you can provide me with the film or a manner to obtain and review the film in a relatively brief period (i.e. not reviewing entire games looking for Ginn's one or two targets), I will happily review them and get back to you in detail.

You don't have access to Ginn's targets, hell, you don't even recall his targets, beyond his drops; and, you don't seem to remember those very clearly. I'm pretty sure that right about now I could make the case that you don't even know who the fuck Ted Ginn is.

Thus, in summary, you have made claims about things you know next to nothing about, and, you have done this with absolutely no way of substantiating a single one of them. Hell, you can't even take a shot hoping you'll get lucky and get one right! I have to admit, Crimson, that is some kind of stupid!

Ok, I'll run through this fairly quickly.

First, you are constantly reminding us of how smart you are. I think you give yourself too much credit. Unlike you, I have not made a habit of actively questioning your intelligence with a series of insults. There is no doubt that you are reasonably intelligent. But I don't think you're the smartest person in the room, either. The fact that you are so willing to question other people's intelligence makes me question your confidence in your own.

Re: dropping passes, both Ginn and Crabtree have struggled. I see a few differences that make me favor Crabtree, however. First, Crabtree sees far more balls, so he is likely to have more drops. By my rough approximation, he probably has twice as many as Ginn, but he has nearly four times the targets and receptions, so Ginn is dropping a higher percentage. Additionally, because Crabtree is our primary receiver, he is more likely to draw a double-team or the opponent's best corner. He is more likely to be the target of critical passes. Crabtree also does far more of his work in the shorter area and across the middle. Those balls are more likely to be dropped because there are more bodies flying around and a guy is more likely to be hit.

Finally, Crabtree has made quite a few impact plays this season, picking up clutch first downs or - granted all too infrequently this year - an important TD grab. Ginn hasn't done nearly as much of that. I'm not satisfied with Crabtree's performance by any means, but he is far more reliable and has made FAR more of an impact as a receiver than Ginn to date.

Re: assessing routes, you're right, that is one of the weaker areas of my football knowledge. But I know what it looks like when a player rounds his cuts, is inconsistent in the way he runs a route, or fails to look back for the ball at the right time. Ginn does all of these things more often than I like to see. Other people whose opinion I trust on this matter have also questioned Ginn's route-running ability.

I asked you about Ginn's receptions over the middle because you said you recently reviewed all 33 of his targets and you have claimed that he is as likely as any of our other receivers to go across the middle. I can't recall any of Ginn's receptions coming over the short middle, so I'm asking someone who should be able to answer the question fairly easily.

I have already addressed at length why I believe that you believe that Ginn is close to or already is our #1 receiver. Perhaps I should have said that I believe that you believe that Ginn is our best receiver rather than #1, but the only real distinction there is your faith in the coaching staff's ability to see Ginn's apparent talent.

As for imbuing your words with meaning, that's part of reading. Language is imprecise, and many words or phrases are subjective. I infer meaning from your words, just as you do and everyone else does. I have repeatedly stated that I might be misunderstanding your meaning at times and have asked you to clarify. You have refused to do so and instead call me a liar. If you aren't going to clarify your unclear comments, I will continue to assume that I am interpreting them correctly.

Finally, as said, I don't have ready access to the film of Ginn's receptions, drops, or targets. I remember some and I forget others. It has been nearly four months since his first action of the season. I doubt anyone who hasn't recently reviewed his body of work remembers everything he's done this season. My claims regarding his hands, awareness, routes, etc. are based on my observations of individual plays as they have informed my overall perception of Ginn as a player. Again, if you can provide access to the film, I would be happy to take a look and apply my criticisms to particular plays.

Finally, you have talked a lot about Ginn's targets. What about plays in which he is not targeted? You know, those 419 passes that didn't go to Ginn. Why isn't he getting open? Or why isn't the coaching staff calling his number? Honest question. You have described Ginn as a pretty complete receiver. If he is so good, and it is so obvious, why isn't he getting more looks?

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Would be interesting if next year Ginn ended up with an elite QB as a #2 WR (through injuries or whatever).

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I would say "good hands" go beyond simply catching with soft hands extended from the body. I would say that good hands also implies an ability to make tough catches.

There are different types of 'tough' catches. Some require a heightened sense of concentration, some require a heightened sense of awareness, some require heightened athleticism while some require a heightened sense of all the above.

When I think of great hands I think of Carter & Largent


This is the ability that Crabtree has more than any of our other receivers, IMO. He has dropped more easy ones than I would like, and some hard ones, but he has far greater ability to make a tough catch in traffic, elevate for an overthrow, pluck a ball one-handed, etc., than any of our guys other than perhaps Williams (I don't think we have enough sample size on Williams to say with much certainty at this point). If you disagree with that definition, that's fine. Call it something else. But it's still an issue for Ginn IMO.

Everything in the preceding paragraph is either outright or meaningless BS!

Crabtree is an utter douche-bag when it comes to traffic catches. He failed in Detroit, he failed twice vs. NYG, he failed in BAL, got schooled by Peterson in ARI and those are just what I can remember.

Has he made traffic catches, yes! But to say he has "far greater ability to make a tough catch in traffic" is just outright horseshit!

I've got Crabtree down for 1 one-handed catch vs. Chicago in '09, which wasn't even a catch because he caught it oob. What do you have besides that one?

Just so were clear - Who, besides yourself, would ding any receiver because he doesn't have a one-handed catch on his resume? Shear desperation, Crimson. Btw, Williams has attempted 1 one-handed catch (vs. BAL) and failed miserably - should we can his ass too?


I can't recall seeing Ginn make many (any?) "tough" catches with the Niners. The long ball against Baltimore is probably the closest, but even that one wasn't really contested, he just had to adjust to the underthrow and cut back inside the defender. Of his 33 targets, how often has he made a catch that was, due to coverage or the accuracy of the throw, genuinely difficult?

How many "tough" catches has Ginn made? Well, if he is as fucked up a WR as you are suggesting, then I would have to say they are all tough catches. Hell, according to you & Imac the poor kid probably needs help just to cash his paycheck.

Right now both Crabtree & Ginn are respectively catching ~76% & ~75% of all the catchable passes thrown to them. There, there is some information you can't misinterpret to terribly wrong.

Crabtree has actually caught the ball in traffic this season, so he has a leg up on Ginn there. Balls are harder to catch in traffic, that's why they are dropped more often. As said, Crabtree needs to continue to improve there, but he has shown that he can do it. Ginn hasn't.

The ability to catch difficult balls can elevate a receiver's game. If Larry Fitzgerald couldn't make spectacular catches, he would probably only be a good rather than elite receiver. But because he can bring in balls other players can't - particularly important because he doesn't have the speed to routinely get as open as some other players - he is one of the best in the game. Crabtree has shown some ability to make the tough catch. Ginn has not. I cannot recall a single catch that made me say, "Wow! I can't believe he caught that!"

And the word you're looking for is "sheer."

 

[Crimsoncrew]

When Ginn came to the 49ers there was a photo that circulated of Ginn at TC catching a pass. Those of us that viewed the photo all made a similar observation - The ball pass was craddled in his hands but his eyes were looking off somewhere else, presumably downfield and for obvious reasons.

Three of the four critical pass drops (ARI, BAL, DAL & NYG) were eyes off the ball. The 4th (ARI) was similar to Crabtree's drop vs. NYG

Ok. So he can't concentrate. Whatever the reason, the result is the same: he doesn't catch the ball consistently.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Crabtree has actually caught the ball in traffic this season, so he has a leg up on Ginn there. Balls are harder to catch in traffic, that's why they are dropped more often. As said, Crabtree needs to continue to improve there, but he has shown that he can do it. Ginn hasn't.

The ability to catch difficult balls can elevate a receiver's game. If Larry Fitzgerald couldn't make spectacular catches, he would probably only be a good rather than elite receiver. But because he can bring in balls other players can't - particularly important because he doesn't have the speed to routinely get as open as some other players - he is one of the best in the game. Crabtree has shown some ability to make the tough catch. Ginn has not. I cannot recall a single catch that made me say, "Wow! I can't believe he caught that!"

And the word you're looking for is "sheer."

when ginn makes a catch i say, 'wow, i cant believe he didn't drop that!'

 

[NinerSickness]

How many starts did the #4 WR on the Ravens get this year? How about the Lions? The Steelers? Calling Ginn our #4 WR this year is an enormous misnomer. He started 3 games, and was the #3 WR for many others. If Ginn was our #4, Williams was our #5.

So our #4 WR caught 19 passes (not 14) for 220 yards and 0 TDs. He had a long of 33 (that's our incredible deep threat. The 3rd lowest average per catch among WRs and TEs as well at a whopping 11.6)

Our #5 WR, Kyle Williams, caught 20 passes for 241 yards and 3 TDs. He started 1 game (and was injured in it).

How did our #5 WR catch more passes, collect more yards, score more TDs and manage a higher YPC than our #4 WR?

In 1 less game no less!!!

Even if you cut his career average in half it's still enough production for a #4 WR. Especially for a team that throws to the TE so much! My point is that having him on the field in a 4 WR set isn't going to be like the guy in Necessary Roughness. He can fill #4 WR shoes. Easily.

 

[imac_21]

Even if you cut his career average in half it's still enough production for a #4 WR. Especially for a team that throws to the TE so much! My point is that having him on the field in a 4 WR set isn't going to be like the guy in Necessary Roughness. He can fill #4 WR shoes. Easily.

How much time has Ginn spent as a #4 WR? WR is a position where players can produce based on volume of opportunities. If a WR is playing #2 WR snaps, of course he will have better numbers than a #4 WR.

His last year in Miami, when he caught 38 passes, he had 12 starts. The year before he had 14 starts (56 catches). His rookie year he started 9 games (34 catches).

In 30 games in SF he has 3 starts. In those 30 games he has caught 31 balls.

In terms of a deep threat (I know you didn't say anything about that, but it's come up) he has a career average of 12.9 ypc. That's not a deep threat.

 

[NinerSickness]

How much time has Ginn spent as a #4 WR? WR is a position where players can produce based on volume of opportunities. If a WR is playing #2 WR snaps, of course he will have better numbers than a #4 WR.

His last year in Miami, when he caught 38 passes, he had 12 starts. The year before he had 14 starts (56 catches). His rookie year he started 9 games (34 catches).

In 30 games in SF he has 3 starts. In those 30 games he has caught 31 balls.

In terms of a deep threat (I know you didn't say anything about that, but it's come up) he has a career average of 12.9 ypc. That's not a deep threat.

If Ginn starts next season as the 4th string WR and the Niners get another starter besides Crabby how many snaps do you think he'd actually be on the field per game? 2? 3? Earlier I said he'd be mostly a "decoy." That's because of his potential to run a reverse or take a quick pitch & run at the line of scrimmage if the CB gives him a lot of room. He could simply make a B line to the end zone. Someone has to cover him there. That's a good asset for a 4th string WR. You've made the point that Ginn isn't a good WR. That's fine. You haven't made the point that he isn't a good #4 WR. If he's not even a #4 in the NFL name some 5th string WRs who are better than he.

Besides... even if he's not a good #4 WR there's no reason the Niners can't carry 5 WRs on the roster. There are 6 now. It's more than worth keeping him around for his return abilities.

 

[CalamityX11]

small tidbit, Crabtree did school Peterson in SF though...

 

[sayheykid1]

Back to Crabtree, when did it go out of style to bach him here? Weren't people calling him a fourth receiver at best a few weeks ago?

 

[imac_21]

If Ginn starts next season as the 4th string WR and the Niners get another starter besides Crabby how many snaps do you think he'd actually be on the field per game? 2? 3? Earlier I said he'd be mostly a "decoy." That's because of his potential to run a reverse or take a quick pitch & run at the line of scrimmage if the CB gives him a lot of room. He could simply make a B line to the end zone. Someone has to cover him there. That's a good asset for a 4th string WR. You've made the point that Ginn isn't a good WR. That's fine. You haven't made the point that he isn't a good #4 WR. If he's not even a #4 in the NFL name some 5th string WRs who are better than he.

Besides... even if he's not a good #4 WR there's no reason the Niners can't carry 5 WRs on the roster. There are 6 now. It's more than worth keeping him around for his return abilities.

I don't care how many snaps he gets. You're using his stats as a WR1 and WR2 to say he has better numbers than a WR4. OF COURSE HE DOES. He played a lot more than a WR4. How many times have you seen him take a quick pass at the line and beat the CB? He's not a decoy for something he can't do. If he's running the end around as a decoy (ghost motion), ANY WR can do that. It doesn't require speed to keep the DE home. If the DE crashes down, then you give it to the WR next time and he runs in the open field. He doesn't have to be 4.3 fast to do that.

You haven't made a point that he's a WR.

I don't feel like naming all the 5th string WRs I would take over him, so I'll just say all of them. I'd also take a host of unemployed WRs over him (Jason Hill and Dominique Ziegler to name 2).

What he gives us at WR could be so easily replaced . . .

I can't understand anyone defending him at WR.

 

[NinerSickness]

Back to Crabtree, when did it go out of style to bach him here??

When he started not sucking out loud. I think the foot injury was significantly slowing him down because he doens't look so slow now...

I still don't like him as a #1 WR, but he's starting to show that he could be a good #2 IMO.

I don't remember anyone saying he was a #4 receiver... I HATED drafting him over Orakpo & a bunch of other players from day 1, but that doesn't mean he's a #4.

 

[imac_21]

Back to Crabtree, when did it go out of style to bach him here? Weren't people calling him a fourth receiver at best a few weeks ago?

MW may have been. I don't remember anyone else slagging him that much. I definitely beat him up in past seasons, but I've been very positive toward him this year. I think he's showing a lot of signs of becoming the player I was projecting him to be when we drafted him.

I do think we need to upgrade our starting WR though.

 

[NinerSickness]

You haven't made a point that he's a WR.

I don't feel like naming all the 5th string WRs I would take over him, so I'll just say all of them. I'd also take a host of unemployed WRs over him (Jason Hill and Dominique Ziegler to name 2).

Jason Hill? Ziegler? Ok. I humbly but strongly disagree with that.

What he gives us at WR could be so easily replaced . . .

No. He gives the Niners the best return man they've had since the 90's & maybe even longer. And you DEFINITELY haven't made the case he isn't a great return man. Also return men in SF are like SF kickers; they have a big statistical disadvantage behind players on teams whose home fields are better running surfaces. And he's still been great because he's that good.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree about him as a #4 WR I guess.

 

[imac_21]

Jason Hill? Ziegler? Ok. I humbly but strongly disagree with that.



No. He gives the Niners the best return man they've had since the 90's & maybe even longer. And you DEFINITELY haven't made the case he isn't a great return man. Also return men in SF are like SF kickers; they have a big statistical disadvantage behind players on teams whose home fields are better running surfaces. And he's still been great because he's that good.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree about him as a #4 WR I guess.

I wish the quote you rplied to in the second part above carried over into this. Your "no" is in response to my comment that what he gives us at WR is easily replaceable. Everything you say after that is about him as a return man. What does his ability as a return man have to do with his ability as a WR? Is Devin Hester an elite WR? Is Patrick Peterson an elite CB?

What did he give us at WR? Well, this year, in 14 games with 3 starts he gave us 19 catches for 220 yards (11.6 ypc) and 0 TDs. You think it would be difficult to find 1.3 catches per game and 11.6 ypc with zero points from a #2/3 WR? That's what he was this year. I don't see why you won't acknowledge that. You can say he SHOULD be a #4 WR, but to say he IS a #4 WR is a misnomer.

I've laid out my case against him in previous threads as a RS. I'm not going to get into it again. I made my points, I defended them.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Before I put this to rest I just want to throw in that a significant part of a #4 or #5 WR in determining whether or not they'll make the team is their special teams contributions and that is weighed against what they bring to the team as a receiver. This is the central argument that has been going back and forth. I'm on the side that a 4th WR's (any many other depth position's) value can and should be weighed more towards special teams contribution to justify their roster spot.

I also want to throw in that Ginn would not see the field nearly as much this year if our WR's weren't decimated by injuries (and DW also going down). Williams has passed Ginn on the depth chart for all intents and purposes. Even though he's not starting, he was getting more and more snaps until he also went down. Ginn is currently a 4 and will likely be a 5th WR if retained next year depending on acquisitions/draft/re-signing. Considering Ginn as our #3 WR doesn't fall into the long term reality of the team. That is the same as saying Grant is our #1 ILB when Patrick Willis got hurt. Yes it is true for that game, but has minimal bearing over the long term reality of where that player stands.

 

[NinerSickness]

I wish the quote you rplied to in the second part above carried over into this. Your "no" is in response to my comment that what he gives us at WR is easily replaceable. Everything you say after that is about him as a return man. What does his ability as a return man have to do with his ability as a WR? Is Devin Hester an elite WR? Is Patrick Peterson an elite CB?

No Hester isn't an elite WR. He's more than adequate as a #4 guy though! No Peterson isn't an elite CB (yet).

I go back to his ability as a RS because you suggested dumping him completely. That would be dumb because of his return abilities alone. And he's good enough at WR to at least make the roster. And he's a better WR than Jason friggn' Hill or Ziegler. I know you disagree with that...

What did he give us at WR? Well, this year, in 14 games with 3 starts he gave us 19 catches for 220 yards (11.6 ypc) and 0 TDs.

On the 29th ranked ranked passing offense where a big portion of the passes are thrown to TEs. And you forgot to mention he had 8 rushes for 68 yards.

Ginn as a #4 on the field makes the offense less predictable than Ziegler as a #4 WR.

You made a case against him as a RS; I'll have to find that because Ginn is the best RS the Niners have had since Deion. Easily.

 

[imac_21]

No Hester isn't an elite WR. He's more than adequate as a #4 guy though! No Peterson isn't an elite CB (yet).

I go back to his ability as a RS because you suggested dumping him completely. That would be dumb because of his return abilities alone. And he's good enough at WR to at least make the roster. And he's a better WR than Jason friggn' Hill or Ziegler. I know you disagree with that...



On the 29th ranked ranked passing offense where a big portion of the passes are thrown to TEs. And you forgot to mention he had 8 rushes for 68 yards.

Ginn as a #4 on the field makes the offense less predictable than Ziegler as a #4 WR.

You made a case against him as a RS; I'll have to find that because Ginn is the best RS the Niners have had since Deion. Easily.

What Ginn is as a returner has nothing to do with how easily replaced his production is.

To say his receiving stats are due to the offense is ridiculous since Kyle Williams put up better numbers in the same offense with less games.

Ginn does nothing to make him the least bit worthwhile ON OFFENSE.

Does he have value on ST? Yeah. Can we get a somewhat similar result from someone else? Yes.

Lastly, again, stop calling Ginn a #4 (this goes to everyone). You may feel he SHOULD be a 4th WR, but he was not.

There is no way he will be the #4 WR next week. He will be either the #2 or #3. Crabtree will be the 1, Williams and Ginn will be 2/3.

And can we squash the notion that a lot of passes are thrown to TEs? Our TEs were targeted on 130 passes this year (Davis and Walker only). Crabtree by himself was targeted 114 times. Walker only had 2 more targets than Ginn all season. You can't claim that we are a TE-centric offense and that Walker (our 2nd TE) had lost of opportunities while Ginn had few. It was 35 (Walker) to 33 (Ginn). Ginn actually had the 3rd most targets at WR for us this year with only one less than Edwards' 34.

I would love it if someone would explain to me how that makes him our #4 WR.