Comedy Platinum out of Toronto - "Canada's Team" quest for the Cup

[DragonfromTO]

Lmao did he not tie the hands of the organization over the five years he spent completely fucking the organization up?

And if we want to go back to 2013, is this team a contender if they had kept Grabovski (.37 PPG this season on a playoff team) at $5.5 million as opposed to signing Bozak for $4.2 million? Clarkson was a nightmare but for $5.25 million what were the Leafs going to sign in his stead? Valtteri Filppula? Ryan Clowe? Michael Ryder? There was nothing out there that was going to turn this team into a contender.

If you want to focus on money, okay, but if Nonis completely handcuffed the team in 2013 they sure are in a pretty decent cap situation here in summer 2015 are they not? $45 million as of today committed to the team, with only 2 "vital" RFA's pending and I can only assume a bloodletting of trades on the horizon. Did he misspend? Absolutely. Are the Leafs "handcuffed" by any of his moves right now? Not moreso than any of half of the league are with a bad contract or two, and those contracts are never immovable these days.

No, while I haven't looked at it recently I don't believe that they are.

$45 million spent, but the problem is more that that's being spent on just 11 bodies (5 forwards, 5 D, 1 goalie). Let's say Kadri and Bernier sign for $4m and $3.5m (probably both low estimates). So then you've got what, about $19m free to spend on 7-8 forwards and 2 D? And the pieces you're missing/needing also happen to tend to be the most expensive pieces... I'm fine with spending $25 million on only 5 forwards if they're guys that are playing somewhere close to that level, but half of that is being spent on Bozak (3rd liner), Lupul (who knows? he's always hurt) and Komarov (I like the guy, but he's a 4th liner who can play up with the 3rd in a pinch if needed and he's making $3m for it).

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

No, while I haven't looked at it recently I don't believe that they are.

$45 million spent, but the problem is more that that's being spent on just 11 bodies (5 forwards, 5 D, 1 goalie). Let's say Kadri and Bernier sign for $4m and $3.5m (probably both low estimates). So then you've got what, about $19m free to spend on 7-8 forwards and 2 D? And the pieces you're missing/needing also happen to tend to be the most expensive pieces... I'm fine with spending $25 million on only 5 forwards if they're guys that are playing somewhere close to that level, but half of that is being spent on Bozak (3rd liner), Lupul (who knows? he's always hurt) and Komarov (I like the guy, but he's a 4th liner who can play up with the 3rd in a pinch if needed and he's making $3m for it).

You act as if there are great free agents to go out and spend money on right now, or that the team should even be considering stepping into the free agency pool even if there were good talent available. It's a rebuild. Give it a year or two and then re-evaluate everything. For now, having $25 million in cap space for a team that was spending to the brim a few months ago in a losing effort is pretty good work.

Anyway, this isn't what i'm arguing to begin with. To say Burke did anything other than fuck this team with its pants on is inexplicable, and saying he left this team in any shape other than "Fucked" or "In line to be fucked in the very near future" is masking the ugly truths of the recent history of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[dash]

I think the word snafu originated in World War II as a way for soldiers to swear without actual swearing. If I'm picking up what BBB is putting down, Brian Burke put a snafu in the Leafs.

 

[DragonfromTO]

You act as if there are great free agents to go out and spend money on right now, or that the team should even be considering stepping into the free agency pool even if there were good talent available. It's a rebuild. Give it a year or two and then re-evaluate everything. For now, having $25 million in cap space for a team that was spending to the brim a few months ago in a losing effort is pretty good work.

Anyway, this isn't what i'm arguing to begin with. To say Burke did anything other than fuck this team with its pants on is inexplicable, and saying he left this team in any shape other than "Fucked" or "In line to be fucked in the very near future" is masking the ugly truths of the recent history of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Um, remind me again who put together the team "that was spending to the brim a few months ago in a losing effort"? You make it sound like it was Burke's team that Nonis was fixing at the deadline (and do we even know/think that he did much/any of the fixing?), but do you know which contracts/players the Leafs started the year with that weren't signed (or acquired already under contract) by Nonis? JVR and Morgan Rielly. That's it. And those are two of the guys whose deals you like.

The problem is not that they won't be able to sign good free agents this offseason, it's that (unless traded) those cap problems aren't disappearing any time soon. Of those 11 players three are signed for 4 more years, four are signed for 3 more years. Only Robidas (2y), Polak (1y), Reimer (1y) and Rielly (1y then RFA and expensive) will be off their contracts any time before the summer of 2018, and they're the smallest contracts. They're committed to paying 7 guys over half of the current salary cap for the next three years.

Can you imagine if Clarkson was still on the books too?

 

[BGDave]

 

[BGDave]

oops

 

[BGDave]

 

[dash]

You can never have enough character(s)...Clear the track, here comes Shack.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Um, remind me again who put together the team "that was spending to the brim a few months ago in a losing effort"? You make it sound like it was Burke's team that Nonis was fixing at the deadline (and do we even know/think that he did much/any of the fixing?), but do you know which contracts/players the Leafs started the year with that weren't signed (or acquired already under contract) by Nonis? JVR and Morgan Rielly. That's it. And those are two of the guys whose deals you like.

The problem is not that they won't be able to sign good free agents this offseason, it's that (unless traded) those cap problems aren't disappearing any time soon. Of those 11 players three are signed for 4 more years, four are signed for 3 more years. Only Robidas (2y), Polak (1y), Reimer (1y) and Rielly (1y then RFA and expensive) will be off the books any time before the summer of 2018, and they're the smallest contracts. They're committed to paying 7 guys over half of the current salary cap for the next three years.

Once again, you're arguing with yourself. I'm not saying the deals Nonis signed weren't terrible. I'm saying he and Burke built a core that was bad, believed in a core that was bad and the team is bad because of that.

My original argument is that you cannot say Nonis left this team in worse shape than he found it in when the majority of the top 6 and top 4 are Burke-era players. Burke built this team, Nonis simply made a few more dumb moves to complement the 5 years worth of dumb moves. For the Twitter geniuses to continue feeding this smoke screen where Burke's Leafs weren't as bad as today's Leafs is infuriating because all Nonis did was continue to run the team in a Burkish manner.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't understand why I have to pick whether Nonis was a worse GM than Burke or vice-versa? They were both horrible, and so was JFJ and for the most part so was Pat Quinn. The Leafs are on a streak of executive futility that my humble mind can't even come up with a comparison for.

 

[forty_three]

Jared Boll has a TON of character.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Once again, you're arguing with yourself. I'm not saying the deals Nonis signed weren't terrible. I'm saying he and Burke built a core that was bad, believed in a core that was bad and the team is bad because of that.

My original argument is that you cannot say Nonis left this team in worse shape than he found it in when the majority of the top 6 and top 4 are Burke-era players. Burke built this team, Nonis simply made a few more dumb moves to complement the 5 years worth of dumb moves. For the Twitter geniuses to continue feeding this smoke screen where Burke's Leafs weren't as bad as today's Leafs is infuriating because all Nonis did was continue to run the team in a Burkish manner.

So is your argument really "everything that Nonis did, Burke would have done too"? Because by the same token couldn't one say "everything that Burke did, Nonis would have done too"? And we don't know either of those things, all we have to evaluate is the things that actually happened and the data that we actually have.
As for that "core" that have played under both, let's look at a couple of them and see what we find.

Burke signed Bozak cheaply at the age of 24. Nonis signed him as a UFA at the age of 28 for 5 years $21 million. Not the same thing at all.

Burke acquired Lupul in trade at the age of 27. He was making $4.25 million on a contract that covered the rest of his theoretical "prime" years. Nonis extended him (before he even had to as I recall? I may be wrong) for 5 years $26.25 million at the age of 29. Once again, I don't see those as being very similar.

Same kind of situation with Phaneuf... Burke traded for his "good" years, and Nonis extended him for what are mostly "decline" years.

 

[BGDave]

Jared Boll has a TON of character.

But what about his truculence level?

Oh wait, I am dating myself again. That was 2 GMs ago. Nvm.

Would it be fair to describe Boll as a poor man's Clarkson?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

So is your argument really "everything that Nonis did, Burke would have done too"? Because by the same token couldn't one say "everything that Burke did, Nonis would have done too"? And we don't know either of those things, all we have to evaluate is the things that actually happened and the data that we actually have.

And what "actually happened" is Burke set the team backwards 5 years, and Nonis followed suit. How is this even up for debate? Just because they fucked up in different ways doesn't negate the fact that they did, indeed, fuck up. For the umpteenth time, I'm not arguing anything you're saying, I'm just saying don't give Burke a pass because that seems to be what you're trying to do and it is ridiculous.

As for that "core" that have played under both, let's look at a couple of them and see what we find.

Burke signed Bozak cheaply at the age of 24. Nonis signed him as a UFA at the age of 28 for 5 years $21 million. Not the same thing at all.

Burke acquired Lupul in trade at the age of 27. He was making $4.25 million on a contract that covered the rest of his theoretical "prime" years. Nonis extended him (before he even had to as I recall? I may be wrong) for 5 years $26.25 million at the age of 29. Once again, I don't see those as being very similar.

Not sure why "core" is in parenthesis. If Lupul, Bozak, Kessel, JVR and Phaneuf aren't the core of this team then who is?

What does whether Burke signed these guys to "good deals" (?) have anything to do with the fact they became the core of his team? Signing Bozak cheaply at 24 still led to him becoming the first line centre of this team, even while Burke was still here. Lupul likewise became integral to this team during the Burke era. This was his core. All Nonis did was put faith in the core he and Burke built. What did you expect of him? He wasn't good at his job, and neither was Burke, and now the team is in a shitty place and both deserve blame and I'm looking forward because there is literally no reason to even be debating this right now.

Hope for the best that Shanahan & Co. can move some of the bad deals, make some good acquisitions, draft well and in two years maybe we can see this team taking steps in the right direction on the ice.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Jared Boll has a TON of character.

Sure. BJ's first round pick and Boll for Tyler Bozak.

 

[dash]

Rob Blake for Leafs GM?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Rob Blake for Leafs GM?

I heard he won't leave SoCal. Familial stuff.

 

[DragonfromTO]

And what "actually happened" is Burke set the team backwards 5 years, and Nonis followed suit. How is this even up for debate? Just because they fucked up in different ways doesn't negate the fact that they did, indeed, fuck up. For the umpteenth time, I'm not arguing anything you're saying, I'm just saying don't give Burke a pass because that seems to be what you're trying to do and it is ridiculous.

Not sure why "core" is in parenthesis. If Lupul, Bozak, Kessel, JVR and Phaneuf aren't the core of this team then who is?

What does whether Burke signed these guys to "good deals" (?) have anything to do with the fact they became the core of his team? Signing Bozak cheaply at 24 still led to him becoming the first line centre of this team, even while Burke was still here. Lupul likewise became integral to this team during the Burke era. This was his core. All Nonis did was put faith in the core he and Burke built. What did you expect of him? He wasn't good at his job, and neither was Burke, and now the team is in a shitty place and both deserve blame and I'm looking forward because there is literally no reason to even be debating this right now.

Hope for the best that Shanahan & Co. can move some of the bad deals, make some good acquisitions, draft well and in two years maybe we can see this team taking steps in the right direction on the ice.

Well, we're talking about the cap situations each of them left behind, right? Why wouldn't the costs be considered?

Signing a 24 year old Bozak to play out his best and cheapest seasons with you isn't a bad decision that fucks up your cap. Signing a 28 year old Bozak to a guaranteed 5 year $21 million contract to play out his decline years is.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Well, we're talking about the cap situations each of them left behind, right? Why wouldn't the costs be considered?

Signing a 24 year old Bozak to play out his best and cheapest seasons with you isn't a bad decision that fucks up your cap. Signing a 28 year old Bozak to a guaranteed 5 year $21 million contract to play out his decline years is.

You're talking about the cap situation. All I said is that right now they have $15-25 million in space and they really don't need more than that entering a full-on rebuild, not to mention contracts may be leaving. This convo was sparked by a dumb tweet that disassociated Nonis and Burke, as if Burke would have lost all belief in his core after they had finally made the playoffs.

And I can't help but love how the Bozak deal is seen as the biggest ill this team has. He makes $4 million. He's only marginally worse at best than the guy who they bought out who was making $1.25 million more than he is. This team didn't sink or swim at the behest of Tyler Bozak's contract negotiations. There is still another $65 million of cap space that was misspent. I'd be just as pissed about Grabovski making $5.5 million for his decline years as I am about Bozak making less and providing the same service level, so which player eventually wound up sticking around and doing so doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme of things.

 

[DragonfromTO]

You're talking about the cap situation. All I said is that right now they have $15-25 million in space and they really don't need more than that entering a full-on rebuild, not to mention contracts may be leaving. This convo was sparked by a dumb tweet that disassociated Nonis and Burke, as if Burke would have lost all belief in his core after they had finally made the playoffs.

And I can't help but love how the Bozak deal is seen as the biggest ill this team has. He makes $4 million. He's only marginally worse at best than the guy who they bought out who was making $1.25 million more than he is. This team didn't sink or swim at the behest of Tyler Bozak's contract negotiations. There is still another $65 million of cap space that was misspent. I'd be just as pissed about Grabovski making $5.5 million for his decline years as I am about Bozak making less and providing the same service level, so which player eventually wound up sticking around and doing so doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme of things.

I mentioned players other than Bozak, I simply used Bozak as the example in my follow up because he was the first one I mentioned. If you'd prefer you can read my last post with Lupul's name and info instead of Bozak's, it really doesn't change the point.

What you seemingly keep forgetting in your Bozak/Grabovski comparison is that keeping Grabovski also would have kept an amnesty buyout. This buyout for instance could have been used on Liles. Instead the team traded Liles for a player on an even worse contract, and then bought out that contract using a regular buyout. Which they're gonna be paying for all through this rebuild.