"Cin-ful"....

[Cincy the Red]

...I was reading some chatter out there that Cingrani struggled yesterday vs. the Cubbies. And I agree, in comparison to his previous starts that appeared to be a poor outing. However....if his poor showings look like that (6 innings-- 3 hits, 5 K's, 1 walk *I know, I know...4 runs*) then this kid has a spot on my team anytime. Everyone has a rough one here and there and it seems to me, Cingrani's "poor" outing feels a lot like Leake's "good" outing.

Someone please tell me Dusty doesn't intend to send "Cin-ful" back down when Cueto is healthy again....it needs to be Leake in my opinion.

Go Redlegs!

 

[JohnU]

The 4 runs were on 2-run homers by Soriano, who is a pretty good hitter in that ballpark.

My guess is Cueto is going to be on the DL for quite some time. After that, sending Cingrani back won't help him much but they will want to limit his innings so they have to make a call somehow. I don't necessarily think replacing Leake with Cin-ful is all that simple.

 

[eburg5000]

I never get excited about young pitchers, until they have been around the league a few times. I could name off about a dozen Reds pitchers that came up and pitched lights out there 1st time around the league, and then couldn't get anyone out. Some adjusted and went on to be good ML pitchers and some drifted to never being heard of again

 

[Redsfan1507]

They sent Cingrani down, and Chapman to the pen in favor of Leake in the rotation. To change would suggest they made a mistake. Dusty never admits a mistake. Cingrani is toast when Cueto gets back unless there is another DL from the rotation, IMO. It's always Groundhog Day in Dusty's world.

 

[JohnU]

Gotta wonder how serious the DL to Parra really is, conveniently located the same day that Marshall got healthy. This kind of 26th man procedure is perfect for the short haul but eventually, you can't keep an MLB-seasoned arm on the shelf. And whether we like it or not, Parra qualifies. He's gotta be of value to somebody, even if it's Miami or the Cubs.

I just don't see the Reds rushing Cueto back into the game IF we can keep getting good games from Latos, Arroyo and Bailey -- and let's be honest, we've been getting that. If we scored runs, we'd be 3-2 on every rotation revolution ... and mix in a lucky effort by Leake and Cin-ful ... there's no reason not to win 6 out of 10 ... IF we could score some runs.

That in the discussion, Cueto is probably not going to be rushed back to the roster. Cingrani is due to hit the wall. All young pitchers do, and eburg5000 is right ... a lot of them find that their 93-cent fastball is a nickel short against hitters like they will face the second time around. Already, MLB is scouting Cingrani's delivery. But they have to actually SEE it before they can evaluate it. Once around the league will be enough.

What I wonder is if the Reds actually look at scouting films of other pitchers. Our hitting philosophy suggests they don't. That's the sin here. Not the Cin-ful.

 

[Cincy the Red]

@ Redsfan1507 -- Agreed about Dusty and the ego. However, Chappy said prior to the season he preferred to close (appears the powers that be agreed) and it seems to me it is a role better suited for him, so ya don't "fix something if it a'int broke" I guess. As far as Leake vs. Cingrani....I do not know what Leake is getting paid, but I think that was a factor and the Reds are looking to get their monies worth. To me, as a fan, that should mean squat.....ya play to win & Cingrani gives us the better chance. The kid is playing with confidence/poise and could really solidify the rotation.

 

[JohnU]

Recall, everyone, that Mike Leake was pretty good as a rookie and better in 2011 and tended to drop off the charts a little. Now, he's a righthander and Cingrani is a lefty. All things being equal, do you want the lefty or the rightie? Depends on who's a better pitcher. Cingrani probably IS a better pitcher but Leake is supposed to be getting better.

[url=http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=502190#gameType='R'&sectionType=career&statType=2&season=2013&level='ALL']Mike Leake Stats, Video Highlights, Photos, Bio | reds.com: Team[/URL]

 

[Cincy the Red]

Also agreed JohnU. But "supposed to be getting better" and "is getting better" are two different things....

I really didn't think about the lefty vs. righty thing but that is a good point too. I appreciate what Leake has done but I still see the same kid from 2 years ago. I feel he has reached his ceiling already.

 

[chico ruiz]

1507, you and dusty are similar in your inability, or unwillingness, to admit a mistake. forget about the leake, chapman, and cingrani debates. we're into the season. now the reds must deal with the injuries that every other team in mlb has to. teams have to find ways to win. the reds did a good job today of doing just that. dusty put some runners in motion today. saw some hitters going with the pitch, and the bullpen was good. they still have a tremendous bullpen, with depth, that will win games in july and august. we're going to see a lot of cingrani, because it could easily be 2 months before cueto is back. 6 weeks is a best case scenario. better also get accustomed to seeing #37 for -very possibly- another month as well. the oblique strain for a baseball player is debilitating and has a high probability of reoccurrence if not allowed to heal completely. not hard to imagine which torso muscles are firing when a batter is trying to catch a 95mph fastball, or when the pitcher throws that same 95mph fastball. hannigan tweaked his reaching for that same 95+ mph fastball.

 

[JohnU]

My hunch is that Cueto is going to re-evaluate the Tiant Twist when he comes back. Could be that's in the rehab plan.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Chico,
I'm usually confident I'm right about baseball, but definately willing to admit and correct a mistake. It's one area where Dusty and I differ... PLUS I don't believe in steal attempts in pitch out / inning ending K out/ Throwout counts, or hit and run with the pitcher, I prefer 1 out and a runner at 3b over no outs and a runner at 2b in a tie game, and I recognize the fact that 45 of the last 50 World Series winners had AT LEAST one LHSP in the rotation, ISN'T because they were doing it wrong.

 

[Cincy the Red]

I will say this about Leake folks....dude carries a lifetime batting average of???? .275....... for a pitcher in the NL, that is out of this world. So I guess there is that.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I like Leake at the plate. He also plays good D. He just has no fastball, and can't change speeds much, and hangs them in the middle of the plate too much. In his "better" 2011 season, Leake got pretty good run support, too, not so much lately. He's also not a good contrast with Arroyo, and he's not a lefty. For those reasons, as long as Cingrani is doing well, I'd have a hard time sending him back. I have to think Leake would do fine in a relief role, especially since hitters tend to hit him better the more they face him in a game... and a guy that could go 4 innings might come in handy, considering the Reds frequent extra inning binges. I doubt Arroyo is back next year, so there's Leake's renewed opportunity then...

 

[JohnU]

I have a hunch the Reds may go looking for a 3-4 rotation guy next year to replace Arroyo. I assume Arroyo isn't coming back but I'd honestly wonder why he would not.
Leake and a prospect could snare somebody. I don't even want to begin wondering who that "somebody" might be.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I think MONEY is the reason Arroyo won't be back- he's a free agent that can get more bucks than the Reds can/will offer, methinks. Does he still have his house in Boston ? I also don't think the Reds have 3-4 more expendable top 100 prospects to go get another Latos, and I think unless Leake really improves, he's not going to bring more than a mop up vet and a low/mid level prospect by himself. He's not expensive yet, and I think the Reds will keep offering him the chance to earn back his bonus bucks until he is... and if he doesn't improve, he won't be that expensive the either. I don't like trading pitching... even for pitching.