Chris Culliver

[Bemular]

I'm not a big fan of converting a 34 year old Corner to safety.

Why not? Seems like it happens quite a bit. Players get too slow to play CB, but they have the smarts & instincts needed to play safety.

Wait. You claim safeties begin their decline around 30 but now you want to convert a 34-year old CB to safety? Why? So he can be good by the time he is 35?

You claim converting 34-year old CB's to safety happens quite a bit. I don't think so. There is a distinctive difference between playing Safety and playing CB and not everyone can make this transition.

There is a learning curve that, for the exception of perhaps a few fill-in roles makes transitions from CB to Safety for 34-year olds happen quite rarely not quite a bit. Woodson is the only one that comes to mind.

You claim "top-speed" is more important for a safety than a CB - yet you want to move a slowed down CB to Safety - Contradict yourself much? (The answer is yes btw.) While speed is important at every position it is more important for a CB. Do you know why?

Speed, agility, quickness among other tactical mechanical attributes are what is most important to play CB. Safety also requires speed but is a much more physical and cerebral, broad focused instinctual position.

Lastly, in an NFL where throwing for ~4000 yards is becoming the norm, don't underestimate the value of a good nickel CB.

We have been in our nick/dime package for much of this season and have quietly become the best passing defense in the league through 5 games (currently ranked #2 in YPG behind Dallas who was on a bye last week.)

 

[deep9er]

we face so much 3 wides nowadays.................

 

[NinerSickness]

I'll go one point at a time...

Wait. You claim safeties begin their decline around 30 but now you want to convert a 34-year old CB to safety? Why? So he can be good by the time he is 35?

Yes, they do decline around 30. That doesn't mean they can't play any more. The context of that other conversation was saying I was against signing a huge LONG TERM contract for a guy whose salary will increase and play will decrease over time. I threw out Jammer's name as a potential stopgap FS (1 year, 2 at most) for a lot cheaper than guys in their 20's would cost. And, by the way, he'll be 34, not 35.

You claim converting 34-year old CB's to safety happens quite a bit. I don't think so. There is a distinctive difference between playing Safety and playing CB and not everyone can make this transition. ...Woodson is the only one that comes to mind.

Rod Woodson did it. Anneas Williams did it. Ronnie Lott did it. Ronde Barber, Antrel Rolle... that's just off the top of my head.

You claim "top-speed" is more important for a safety than a CB - yet you want to move a slowed down CB to Safety - Contradict yourself much? (The answer is yes btw.)

I can be snarky too. Manufacture contradictions much? (the answer is yes BTW). That's an incoherent point. He's lost some top speed, but he's lost just as much agility. So any physical reason his safety play would decline is the same reason his CB play would declie. I made the point about top speed for players who aren't exceptionally nimble, but they have great top speed. Bigger, taller guys who might not work out at CB. Antrel Rolle is an example of a guy who was extremely fast, but he didn't have elite agility to play CB. All this notwithstanding, Jammer is still playing CB this season at a pretty high level. However (and this is the sticking point), he's not going to get a huge contract because of his age (unlike Goldson). That's a good fit for a SB caliber team like the Niners if they need one.

Lastly, in an NFL where throwing for ~4000 yards is becoming the norm, don't underestimate the value of a good nickel CB.

Oh I don't at all. In fact, the 3rd string CB is probably the most important non-starter on the entire team; but if Cox shows enough to come in on nickel packages, Culliver MIGHT be the best option at FS if the Niners don't find another one & Goldson leaves.

 

[NinerSickness]

Tagging Goldson again requires a 20% bump in salary which puts him at $7.44 mil for one year.

It'd be a huge chunk, but the advantage would be that they get one more contract year from him (so he'd still have the financial incentive to play well), and they'd have no dead money when he left the next offseason. Also, that year would give the Niners time to see if they could find a diamond in the rough in the later rounds.

It'd only work if they cut Whitner & his 5 million though. And as well as Goldy's playing at FS, I think he'd be an even better SS.

 

[FourBeeDen]

It'd be a huge chunk, but the advantage would be that they get one more contract year from him (so he'd still have the financial incentive to play well), and they'd have no dead money when he left the next offseason. Also, that year would give the Niners time to see if they could find a diamond in the rough in the later rounds.

It'd only work if they cut Whitner & his 5 million though. And as well as Goldy's playing at FS, I think he'd be an even better SS.

How much of that 5m is guaranteed? Plus, how would Goldson react to being tagged again?

 

[NinerSickness]

How much of that 5m is guaranteed? Plus, how would Goldson react to being tagged again?

I don't think any of it is guaranteed. He got 4.5 of ihs 3 year contract was guaranteed; I'm guessing that was all a signing bounus.

I don't know how Goldson would react, but I have no doubt he's sign it and play. He'd be stupid not to.

 

[FourBeeDen]

I don't think any of it is guaranteed. He got 4.5 of ihs 3 year contract was guaranteed; I'm guessing that was all a signing bounus.

I don't know how Goldson would react, but I have no doubt he's sign it and play. He'd be stupid not to.

Big maybe on that.. He could try to hold out and force a trade. He has been looking for along term deal for some time now...

How about drafting a replacement.. don't you have a pulse/take on an up and comer that has the feel of being a good FS for the Niners?

 

[imac_21]

I like Culliver, but Rogers is covering the #1s, and isn't Brown covering the #2s usually? The stats are impressive, but let's hold judgement a bit. His size, speed, and range would make a stud safety instantly.

From what I can tell, we don't match-up our CBs. When we go nickel, Rogers covers the slot and Culliver takes the LCB spot. They cover whoever comes to them.

 

[TobyTyler]

Sick has mentioned a few times that he would (ideally?) move Cully to free safety next year. I'm going to come out strongly against that. I realize that keeping Goldson is a long shot (though that would be my ideal), however I REALLY (can't emphasize it enough) like him at CB.

PFF posted an interesting stat about him today. He's averaging 29 snaps in coverage between catches allowed.

I read earlier in the week that opposing QBs have a QB rating of about 14 when throwing to him. I don't know why we would want to move him.

Agreed. Its much harder to find a quality Corner than a quality Free Safety.

 

[imac_21]

I didn't say I wanted him at FS, I said he looks like the best option at this point because Goldson is as good as gone IMO.

I like him at CB too. However, if there's a starting spot open on the roster and Culliver is the 3rd string CB, I say go ahead and just let him start at FS.

Then again, the Niners could draft a FS who might start from day 1.

Culliver takes Sopoaga's spot in nickel. Culliver has played plenty of snaps this year.

Last week Cully played 91% of the snaps.

Against the Jets he played 51%

Against the Vikings he played only 38%

Against the Lions he played 88%

Against GB he played 90%

So in n 3 of our 5 games thus far, he has played the vast majority of snaps on defense. It isn't as if he's wasting away on the bench.

 

[imac_21]

Why not? Seems like it happens quite a bit. Players get too slow to play CB, but they have the smarts & instincts needed to play safety. And Jammer's a big corner.

I would hardly say it happens "quite a bit." How many starting safeties in the league right now played the majority of their career at CB? Woodson and . . . ?

 

[imac_21]

Rod Woodson did it. Anneas Williams did it. Ronnie Lott did it. Ronde Barber, Antrel Rolle... that's just off the top of my head.

Players that made the transition in their career shouldn't count. You're talking about taking a guy who is 34 and converting him.

So you have a list of 3. Add Chuck Woodson and it's 4. You went back 15 years. So in 15 years 4 players have done it. How is Ronde Barber playing? I have seen lots of negative reviews, not many positive.

 

[NinerSickness]

Big maybe on that.. He could try to hold out and force a trade. He has been looking for along term deal for some time now...

How about drafting a replacement.. don't you have a pulse/take on an up and comer that has the feel of being a good FS for the Niners?

At a number of 7.5 million, holding out would be way too expensive for him IMO. He could hold out & demand a trade, but if he were to do that he would've been smarter to do it this offseason when he was a year younger and would be giving up 20% less money to do so. I think he'd sign it.

And yes, I think the Niners should and will draft at least one safety this offseason. The question is, how high of a pick will they spend?

I really haven't watched the safeties this year all that much except McDonald & Eric Reid, and I like them at SS better than FS. Assuming Goldy leaves, the Niners will need a FS. Also, I'm not as high on McDonald as most.

I like converting tough CBs to FS, and there are a couple who I think could do that (Amerson, Rhodes). I think Jammer could do it if the Niners went the FA route. There are some others who are playing pretty well. Clyde's pretty high on Lamarcus Joyner, and he was pretty impressive this weekend. I have reservations about his size; ESPN has him listed at 5'8, but I've seen him listed at 5'11. Gonna have to wait on the combine on that one.

Matt Elam had an amazing day against LSU, but he's proabably a SS prospect too.

There are some others; I'm gonna have to watch 'em more.

 

[Bemular]

Players that made the transition in their career shouldn't count. You're talking about taking a guy who is 34 and converting him.

So you have a list of 3. Add Chuck Woodson and it's 4. You went back 15 years. So in 15 years 4 players have done it. How is Ronde Barber playing? I have seen lots of negative reviews, not many positive.

Additionally, all of the players mentioned transitioned within their respective defensive systems.

 

[NinerSickness]

Players that made the transition in their career shouldn't count.

What do you mean? That doesn't make sense. That's exactly what I'm suggesting: Jammer making the transition in his career.

What's wrong with converting a 34 year old CB? It's not exactly converting from QB to WR.

Ronde Barber is 37. Jammer is 33. 37 VS 33 isn't like 27 VS 23. It's a big difference. Jammer is a MUCH better player than Barber at this point. And 4 years ago, Barber was playing at a pretty high level.

 

[NinerSickness]

Additionally, all of the players mentioned transitioned within their respective defensive systems.

I don't remember Rod Woodson playing CB with the Ravens. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't mention Merton Hanks because he started his pro' career at FS, but he's an example of how it's not exactly rocket science for a CB to convert to safety.

 

[imac_21]

What do you mean? That doesn't make sense. That's exactly what I'm suggesting: Jammer making the transition in his career.

What's wrong with converting a 34 year old CB? It's not exactly converting from QB to WR.

Ronde Barber is 37. Jammer is 33. 37 VS 33 isn't like 27 VS 23. It's a big difference. Jammer is a MUCH better player than Barber at this point. And 4 years ago, Barber was playing at a pretty high level.

I forgot an important word.

Players that made the transition EARLY in their career shouldn't count (Rolle, Lott). We're talking about moving a guy in the twilight of his career who spent his entire career at CB.

 

[NinerSickness]

I forgot an important word.

Players that made the transition EARLY in their career shouldn't count (Rolle, Lott). We're talking about moving a guy in the twilight of his career who spent his entire career at CB.

Got it.

I don't see how it would be easier to make the transition early VS late. In fact, I think making the transition later in a career would probably be easier, because his instincts & smarts would be much better / higher.

 

[Bemular]

I don't remember Rod Woodson playing CB with the Ravens. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't mention Merton Hanks because he started his pro' career at FS, but he's an example of how it's not exactly rocket science for a CB to convert to safety.

According to PFR he did. Regardless, it doesn't happen "quite a bit" as you grossly exaggerated. Speaking of another gross exaggeration - nobody said it was rocket science; but, to swing the exaggeration in the other direction - it’s not a walk in the park either.

 

[Bemular]

Got it.

I don't see how it would be easier to make the transition early VS late. In fact, I think making the transition later in a career would probably be easier, because his instincts & smarts would be much better / higher.

Wrong - his instincts & smarts are ingrained in the position of CB - When changing tendencies, the earlier the better.