By the numbers 20% in...

[chico ruiz]

this is a ongoing league wide discussion right now. it's not only the reds. i watch a lot of baseball, and a majority of team fan bases are having some derivational dialogue about this same thing. offensive philosophy. hit-n-run called it a 'flawed concept.' i've read and heard many theories about how mlb got to this place. PED's and it's aftermath. super over-the-top ridiculous big money. the way young talent is coached at the lower levels (particularly hitting). i'm starting to think that an inside/out swing is a god given talent because you see fewer players capable of it every year. 1507 has bemoaned reds hitters swinging from their heels the last few years. it's true. and they're doing it in situations where just hitting the ball to the right side will score a run or move a runner. there is one line from 'moneyball' that has stuck with me. beane / pitt says, if there going to bunt don't worry about the runner on-base. take the out at first. if they're going to give us an out, take it. that is the baseball equivalent of a paradigm shift. i don't much like it. seems like we're witnessing the death of the on-field tactical decisions that made it fun for me to watch, and guess along with, whoever was managing. there are a handful of good managers. maybe 3 really good field-smart managers. but, i think john mcgraw is still rolling around his grave, with fists pumping, asking, 'what the $#@^&%$ have you done to my game you GDMFSOB's.'

 

[Redsfan1507]

What I don't get is perspective from guys (mangers, GMs, etc) as old or older than me that grew up with a century long "baseball 101" rote learning methodology. These guys can't all have Alzheimer's, they have to know they're lax in teaching proven methodology, or they all think they have a better way, all at the same time, or they've been TOLD to do this. It's the root cause of the problem that pre- dates residuals like smaller parks and PEDs.

 

[JohnU]

The game is played the same way now as it was in 1906. The athletes are a bit stronger, better conditioned, certainly healthier ... but no more inclined to be able to change the game than they ever were (unless they get HGH or some other derivative.)

What constitutes an unhittable pitch today is no different from a spitball in 1917 or a cut seam from a sharpened belt buckle. Ray Chapman being killed by a pitched ball in 1920 resulted in what we think is obvious -- when a ball has dirt on it, it's too hard to see. That gave Babe Ruth a lot more chances.

Enough of that particular history. What the Reds have is a lineup concocted of the logic that says a long fly ball is probably going into the seats. So, why not try to lift it?

Jay Bruce has a batting stance that will never allow him to hit .270. His bat is slow now because the pitchers have learned to beat him.

And they consistently beat Frazier, Heisey and Mesoraco.

My point to all this: Everyone is using science to play baseball. Dusty and his staff are still going by the "gut" feeling, it appears. The game is the same. The data don't lie.

Reds coaches give me the impression that they will stubbornly refuse any attempts to make their hitters better because, the data be damned, "it all evens out over a season."

Yeah, that's called playing .500 baseball.

 

[chico ruiz]

i ask myself the same question 1507. john, if you think that the game hasn't changed, you haven't been paying attention. so, you can berate the reds and the staff all you want (much of what you say is true, except for the votto looking lost part), but it is a mlb trend. it's a special event in some venues when a sacrifice is executed correctly. the game is the same, yes. the way it is played is not. it's what most of this thread has been about, and the progression i have witnessed with my own two eyes from crosley field in 1968, to dodger stadium in 1988, to yankee stadium in 2008, to the game i'm going to tonite at citifield. ironically, wandy rodriquez again.

 

[eburg5000]

I think the philosophy of baseball now. Is to hit more home runs. And that is because, a lot of the in and out fans (fair weather fans) get bored with low scoring games. So the powers that be, want teams to score a lot of runs, especially home runs. Look for the DH to be coming to the NL soon. The purpose here is to draw more fans and make more money. Which is the bottom line anymore. They really don't care about us, because they already have us.

 

[chico ruiz]

mr. eburg that is definitely part of the equation. there can be no doubt. another thing i've noticed is players not trying to stretch singles into doubles nearly as much as they used to. or for that matter, even attempting to take an extra base, in any circumstance.
here's a indicator of the change i'm referencing. one of my biggest pet peeves is when a batter stands near the box admiring his long drive that doesn't quite leave the yard. he ends up at 1st, or second - if he's lucky enough not to get thrown out. junior was good at this. i have a couple of jr. stories that still make me cringe. anyway, when i see this i stand up and boo as loudly and persistently as possible. and here's the rub: almost all the fans around me seem to have no idea what i'm booing.

 

[JohnU]

I should have inserted the word "properly" in suggesting the game is the same as it was in 1906. Obviously, there are differences, mainly that players actually use gloves now that can catch a ball. Nobody uses 2 hands. They use helmets now and umps eject pitchers who throw inside. There's a long list of changes.

Aside from that, if you want to win at ball, you play it the same way they did in 1963.

Averages are down and strikeouts are up ... and the teams that end up winning the pennants will have a coaching staff that actually notices that.

I agree on the DH ... there's no reason to not have it if interleague is going to grow. It's time to start structuring rosters around it instead of having 13 guys in the bullpen and, as Dusty is wont to do, try to figure out ways to use them all.

Of course, if he had an offense, his starters COULD get 7 strong and a bullpen of 4 or 5 guy would be enough.

If he could score some runs.

The teams that figure this out will be playing in mid-October.

BTW: I am NOT a fan of the sac bunt by anyone other than the pitcher -- unless it's moving a guy from 2nd to 3rd in a 0-out situation.

And, on that topic, if the discussion includes the intelligence level of the average baseball fan, there will probably be -- in a crowd of 30,000 -- about 5,000 who come for the game and care about the game. Those people don't even need an electric scoreboard. They also buy a ticket and watch the game. I am in that group. MLB doesn't really care much about me.

Wow, getting to see Wandy Rodriguez pitch ... that has to be a rare thrill!

 

[Hit-n-Run]

Seemed like we faced Wandy every other weekend last year. I looked it up, it was 6 times.

 

[JohnU]

Would have faced him this year if he wasn't on the DL. So the Pirates called up some guy named Irwin and he beat us anyhow.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Not bunting a leadoff double to 3b flat means you aren't considering the odds of trying to score. Unless you are preventing a pitcher hitting into a DP, I'm also not a fan of bunting a runner from 1b to 2b...it still usually takes a hit to score from 2b with 1 out, and the MLB average in any condition with 2 outs is barely over .200...so odds are, Ty Cobb wouldn't drive a runner in from 2b more than 35% of the time. Zack Cozart might never do it.

Thw game has changed, but some standards never do.

On the rare occasions where the leadoff runner at 1b has good steal speed, with the P at the plate, I prefer to steal 2b before the P has 2 strikes, THEN bunt him to 3b... but, Dusty will drop the bunt sign on the first pitch every time ( unless hes giving the P at the plate a hit and run sign... suicide by stupidity). It's still 90 feet from 1b to 2b and about 127 feet from home to 2b, and any catcher that can't get a tag-able throw to that distance in less than 2 seconds after catching the pitch, still isn't throwing more than 1/4 of the runners out.... including slugs like Prince Fielder.

Sorry, I'm probably not asking Votto, Choo,or Bruce to bunt a guy to 3b because of their opportunity for a HR, but EVERYONE else better get prepared. The first guy that protested because he looked bad failing to get the bunt down would get benched so he didn't have to worry about looking bad. Sorry, the MLB minimum is nearly $ 500 k, so I expect you to leave your lack of preparation and ego at home before you show up to work.

Just saying.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Wandy is no fool. He's also a lefty. He's going to try hard to let you get yourself out, and our Reds are usually eager to assist.