Game Thread: Browns / Bengals

[CrashDavisSports]

Could you imagine the Bengals winding up with a #1 pick again, and selling the keys to that pick for a kings ransom knowing Lawrence will be the one everyone wants? 3 to 4 1st round picks could be the situation again, just maybe not in a single year because of lack of teams with that kind of draft stock in a single year.

I think we start to turn things around a bit. I still think we are about a 6 win team. Not good enough to get to the playoffs, and not bad enough to get to a #1 pick. That 30 points was thanks to Burrow. His complete unwillingness to quit and accept defeat. I think he becomes a little Bengalized, but not enough to take away that desire and drive. I think Burrow alone with the talent on this team is good for 6 wins, just depends on which defense shows up on Sunday. The one against Los Angeles or the one against Cleveland.

Atkins is a complete difference maker in our defense, and along with Reader beside him, I think can improve our Dline by a lot. I really like our DT rotation of Atkins, Reader and Daniels. What I saw was a stark difference between the Los Angeles and the Cleveland game, our LBs were no where to be seen and never mentioned in any play hardly against Cleveland. They just simply disappeared, and that includes Bynes. When the middle of your defense is completely gone, it creates a lot of freaking holes, especially in the second level of the run game.

The LB'ers really need to step up and become more consistent and aggressive.

Bobby Hart is still the worst RT in football, been saying this for 3 years now. Fred Johnson needs to kick outside to RT and if Filo is too injured to go, and Price sucks too much, then for goodness sakes, throw the new guy Calhoun in at RG and see what happens. It has to be better than Hart.

It is nice to see that if we need him to, Burrow can throw the ball 60 times in a game and protect it without throwing an INT. However, we need a very balanced run/pass attack. That oline really needs to get some push though for Mixon.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Ben Baby

@Ben_Baby
Joe Burrow has been contacted 22 times through his first 2 NFL games. Over the last 15 seasons, only Cam Newton was contacted more through his first 2 games. (via @ESPNStatsInfo)
10:07 AM · Sep 18, 2020

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[Cincyfan78]

I thin Jonah has done OK at LT - a learning curve to be expected after missing his rookie year, and then having no off-season.

I still want to see Fred at RT - he did an OK job at LT, at least enough of a good job that he should be given some run at RT. Hart is not the future, and if this team is about next year, and beyond, there is zero reason why they shouldn't be looking at Fred now at RT to see if they have something in him, or not. How he plays will affect, likely, the route they take in F/A and in the draft regarding this OL.

 

[cincygrad]

I think you guys pretty much covered it, but here are some thoughts on everyone's thoughts....

-- I agree that Burrow is the real deal. It's odd to watch the Bengals play and to have confidence that the qb is going to make a play. He didn't make all the plays.... And he certainly made some big mistakes. But damn, that guy competes. Even Myles Garrett said something about him being better at staying in the pocket and keeping his poise than a lot of vets.
-- It's not out of the realm of possibility that Burrow gets hurt and the Bengals finish with the worst record in the league. Can you imagine this team without Burrow leading them?
-- Lou and Jim Turner were available for a reason. Remember how much trouble we had hiring a DC? Nobody wanted the position... No talent. As for the O-line - Pretty sure they wanted Callahan (our OC's dad), but it didn't work out. Turner has done some good in the league, but he hasn't worked any miracles here.
-- Are we sure Mixon is good? He's tough. He's enthusiastic. He has really good hands for a back.... But damn, it just seems like he should get more yards on some runs. For being the size he is, he seems to go down easy in the open field.
-- Green might be done. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't pay him if he's washed up. The money is needed for other parts of the team.
-- Higgins looks like a rookie. Still thinking too much. He looked different.... more athletic... at Clemson.
-- That was a lot of money to spend on D and we're still a long way off.
-- No pass rush. Not even close. Against a guy that you can rattle if you move him off his mark.
-- Its interesting to watch a young, first time, first year coach.... It was clear that the Browns coach has his own system, own ideas and own ways he wants to approach the game. It's never felt that way with Taylor. It just seems like we run a collection of offensive plays that we pulled from a bunch of other teams and threw them against the wall, hoping for the best. There's no way a good coach lets his prize rookie qb get hit like that. It's just not good football.

 

[CaptainStubing]

i think joe burrow has looked pretty good in his first 2 starts. if they can shore up their o-line a bit, it would help even more.

 

[BigFin]

Joe in those spread formations is gonna be really deadly if he gets better blocking.

 

[DanBengalfan]

The Bengals front office has trouble

-evaluating Offensive line talent
-retaining offensive line talent
-parting with the funds to sign new and effective offensive line talent

you could say the same for some other positions as well, particularly on defense.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The Bengals front office has trouble

-evaluating Offensive line talent
-retaining offensive line talent
-parting with the funds to sign new and effective offensive line talent

you could say the same for some other positions as well, particularly on defense.

Honestly - I'm not sure about the 1st one. I think that is at the bottom because they have found good talent. The issue is combined in the next 2 bullet points in retaining top end talent by paying them. When they don't, that leads to them scrapping the bottom of the barrel hoping to get lucky - but I don't think it's because they don't know - I think they know - they just hope that other areas of the team are good enough to off-set this issue - which is just stupid, IMO.

It's long been a Brown trait to refuse signing OL to high priced contracts and letting them walk - and that has killed nearly every nucleus of any decent Bengals team since Lewis came around. You go back and start to look when the offenses started to struggle, and it almost always involves losing several top linemen.

That then forces them to double down on what they already probably know - the guys they have to replace those players - are not good. The problem is that any F/A that is not priced accordingly - is also probably not very good - or they wouldn't be on the market.

No matter how the NFL evolves - this basic truth will always remain the same: Everything starts up front. You either have to protect the QB in a spread-offense league and have to get after the QB in a spread-offense league OR you have to open big lanes in a RB driven league and be able to fill gaps and stop the run in a RB driven league. No matter how the NFL evolves and adapts - you HAVE to build your lines on offense and defense to be a true contender.

No matter how good your QB/RB may be, if the OL sucks, they will struggle. No matter how good your LB's and DB's are, if your DL can't get to the QB, or stop the run, the defense will struggle. This has been the same since the beginning of the NFL - and will never change.

 

[alf8478]

The irony of the line is that they went about 10 years with having a better than average to good line, with horrible center play, and now, the only decent lineman they have is the center.

 

[cincygrad]

Honestly - I'm not sure about the 1st one. I think that is at the bottom because they have found good talent. The issue is combined in the next 2 bullet points in retaining top end talent by paying them. When they don't, that leads to them scrapping the bottom of the barrel hoping to get lucky - but I don't think it's because they don't know - I think they know - they just hope that other areas of the team are good enough to off-set this issue - which is just stupid, IMO.

It's long been a Brown trait to refuse signing OL to high priced contracts and letting them walk - and that has killed nearly every nucleus of any decent Bengals team since Lewis came around. You go back and start to look when the offenses started to struggle, and it almost always involves losing several top linemen.

That then forces them to double down on what they already probably know - the guys they have to replace those players - are not good. The problem is that any F/A that is not priced accordingly - is also probably not very good - or they wouldn't be on the market.

No matter how the NFL evolves - this basic truth will always remain the same: Everything starts up front. You either have to protect the QB in a spread-offense league and have to get after the QB in a spread-offense league OR you have to open big lanes in a RB driven league and be able to fill gaps and stop the run in a RB driven league. No matter how the NFL evolves and adapts - you HAVE to build your lines on offense and defense to be a true contender.

No matter how good your QB/RB may be, if the OL sucks, they will struggle. No matter how good your LB's and DB's are, if your DL can't get to the QB, or stop the run, the defense will struggle. This has been the same since the beginning of the NFL - and will never change.

You are spot on here..... This has been a historical issue for the Bengals. If you look at those great 80s offensive teams, you can trace the beginning of their decline to plan b free agency and the loss of Max Montoya. This was the beginning of free agency in the NFL and one of the earliest indications that the Brown family didn't value interior linemen. Everyone talks about the trainwreck the Bengals were at QB in the 90s, but most of the real problems started up front. They got lucky and had a few good tackles during the 90s (Willie Anderson comes to mind), but the dominance of those 80s lines was long gone. They hit on a few picks and picked up a good FA or two and built a terrific line for Carson Palmer in 2005.... Only to let parts of it age too much (Levi Jones sure peaked early), leave because we won't pay guards (Steinbach), or fail to replace guysthat got injured (Braham). That set up the team to fail from 2006-2008 and almost knocked Palmer out of the NFL. They once again got it back together for a couple year run with Dalton, only to let it slide again.... Just never a commitment to keeping it together. Or maybe too much faith in the coaches to replace pro-bowl caliber players. Regardless, for as long as I can remember the Bengals offense has been amazing in times of good line play and awful the rest of the time.

 

[cincygrad]

The irony of the line is that they went about 10 years with having a better than average to good line, with horrible center play, and now, the only decent lineman they have is the center.

LOL... So true. How did we get so lucky with Hopkins?

 

[Cincyfan78]

LOL... So true. How did we get so lucky with Hopkins?

Honestly, I think the left side of the line is "OK". Not great, but Jonah looks solid - he missed a year and has yet to have any real training camp or exhibition. So, I think he's doing pretty good all things considered. Could be a lot better, yes, but he's no Hart.

Jordan has flashes - he needs consistency - just like Jonah, IMO.

The right side of the line is an abject failure right now. With dude out on injury it just makes it that much worse. Fred struggled at guard because, shocking alert, he's not a guard. I want to see him at RT and at this point, if Price can't hold down RG he just needs to be released. Let's roll with

Williams/Jordan/Hopkins/Price/Johnson - and see how that goes for a game, or two. It simply cannot be worse than what is happening right now. Currently they are operating with just 4 linemen that can actually block with Hart on the field acting as a decoy of some sort.

 

[Wamu]

Am I allowed to talk trash about the Benglas in this thread? Wait a minute that's not what I mean. While I'm not a fan of the Bengals for obvious reason I want Burrow to succeed. Except for when he's playing the Browns. Ohio kid. And graduated from Ohio State. I can't root against him.

Hopefully he doesn't have many games this year where he has to throw 61 times. That's not good. Gotta few questions I'm sure have been covered. But don't feel like reading a bunch of comments right now. What's the deal with o-line? And will they have any type of running game to take some pressure off of him?

 

[DanBengalfan]

Honestly - I'm not sure about the 1st one.

they do get it right sometimes.

it can certainly be frustrating when they don't.

 

[alf8478]

The Bengals front office has trouble

-evaluating Offensive line talent
-retaining offensive line talent
-parting with the funds to sign new and effective offensive line talent

you could say the same for some other positions as well, particularly on defense.

Their main problem is that when they "hit" on a later round pick they get this false sense of arrogance that they are draft geniuses. Like because they got Geno Atkins sand Clint Boling in later rounds that they don't need to prioritize those positions early in the draft because they will just hit again.

 

[DanBengalfan]

I remember when they were convinced Armon Binns was going to be a good #2 WR because he was a star at UC

that's the logical reasoning power that prevails in this organization.

 

[cincygrad]

Since 2013, here are the linemen we drafted:
- Tanner Hawkinson, 5th round 2013
-Reid Fragel, 7th round 2013
-Cedric Ogbeuhi, 1st round 2015
-Jake Fisher, 2nd round 2015
-Christian Westerman, 5th round 2016
- JJ Dielman, 5th round 2017
- Billy Price, 1st round, 2018
-Rod Taylor, 7th round, 2018
-Jonah WIlliams, 1st round, 2019
- Michael Jordan, 4th round, 2019

Three different offensive line coaches over this time.... Out of the entire bunch of draft picks (some high some low), there are really only two left that could establish themselves as legit pros... I think Williams will be a solid LT for many years. Not sure he'll ever be elite, but I can see him being better than average and having a nice career. I read all sorts of shit about how good Jordan is - Guess I just haven't noticed yet.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Since 2013, here are the linemen we drafted:
- Tanner Hawkinson, 5th round 2013
-Reid Fragel, 7th round 2013
-Cedric Ogbeuhi, 1st round 2015
-Jake Fisher, 2nd round 2015
-Christian Westerman, 5th round 2016
- JJ Dielman, 5th round 2017
- Billy Price, 1st round, 2018
-Rod Taylor, 7th round, 2018
-Jonah WIlliams, 1st round, 2019
- Michael Jordan, 4th round, 2019

Three different offensive line coaches over this time.... Out of the entire bunch of draft picks (some high some low), there are really only two left that could establish themselves as legit pros... I think Williams will be a solid LT for many years. Not sure he'll ever be elite, but I can see him being better than average and having a nice career. I read all sorts of shit about how good Jordan is - Guess I just haven't noticed yet.

I'll state that they only really targeted 5 OL - if you are taking OL later than the 4th round, chances are you know they are a project. As you mentioned, a lot of change in the coaching position so guys who are projects for one scheme/coach, are useless to another.

Missing on Ced and Jake were huge. Huge because they were planning on the OL issues they saw coming and at least they tried to prepare for those potential losses. Where they screwed up there was watching them in practice for 2+ years and realizing they stunk and then still allowing the OL attrition to occur doubling down on what they already knew: Those two guys were terrible.

I'm shocked by Price. An OSU guy who played all over the line and has not even looked anything like the linemen he was at OSU.

Williams has looked good early. He's got a lot of catching up to do, and hasn't yet had a pre-season or real off-season training. I think he will only get better.

Jordan is OK. I think he can at least be serviceable. The Center to left side of the line is OK, or at least good enough. But that right side....woof.

 

[BKBroiler9000]

The fact that the coaching staff and front office keep insulting people’s intelligence by telling us Bobby Hart is good, when it’s obvious to anyone with eyes that he’s not...says all you need to know about them.

Hart should’ve been benched/replaced after 2018. They signed him to a 3 year extension. And continue to play him. And defend his play. Despite how terrible he is. I don’t get it.

 

[cincygrad]

Taylor-Made Takes: Keeping O-Line Intact For Eagles

In his weekly conversation with Bengals.com senior writer Geoff Hobson, head coach Zac Taylor says he’ll give right guard Fred Johnson another start on an offensive line he wants to keep intact for Sunday’s game in Philadelphia. He’s encouraged by the pla

www.bengals.com

Taylor-Made takes..... We're keeping the band together.

Zac either stopped caring, he's stupid, or the backups really suck.