Brown to be stripped of his C.

[PuckinUgly57]

FYI - Ovechkin is one of the crappiest captains I have ever seen as well. Under Trotz he finally learned he has to play a two-way game, but this guy loves his cartwheels after goals too much to ever win a team award.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

He was what they needed at the time he became C. The amount of leadership on the cup teams from guys that did not have a C/A on their jersey was immense(Richards, Carter, Mitchell, Scuderi....ect)....it could be argued they didn't really need a C, outside of a few months he didn't really lead by example and as Puck has mentioned numerous never stuck up for his team mates. He will always be the "greatest" C for the Kings in my book as he was on the cup teams but he is now taking up a huge amount of cap with zero results on the ice, no production even his hits aren't meaningful and still does nothing to rally or stick up for the team. Hate is a strong word tho doob and most of us do not hate him and he has done great things for the community, but the window to stay relevant is closing quickly and he brings nothing to the table at this point.

Bingo.

I hit this in another thread I think, but he was the perfect captain for LA where they were at the time. A developing, struggling, shitty team trying to learn how to win. You had Brown, Frolov, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, etc. all going on a journey together to become elite players and legitimate NHL contenders. Brown was their equal, their peer.

Add in the veterans like Williams, Richards, Mitchell, Regehr, Scuderi and Brown didn't know how to handle that. They were no longer a developing team, they were a veteran, contending, elite team.

I think he honestly felt intimidated knowing there was like 50 years of NHL leadership in a 20 x 20 room with him. Every one of those guys wore an A or a C at one time in their careers, and Brown was no longer their equal. He didn't have the personality to consider himself their equal. It became more of a lead by committee with that group than just Brown doing it.

The last 5 years he has worn it out of tradition and formality.

 

[redseat]

I have no dog in this fight but shouldn't who is the captain be more of "leadership and how he has respect from his teammates" as opposed to him scoring?

 

[PuckinUgly57]

I have no dog in this fight but shouldn't who is the captain be more of "leadership and how he has respect from his teammates" as opposed to him scoring?

I think you need to have both and for a while he did. Not so much anymore and he makes way too much money for intangibles.

Look at the captains around the league, they are generally well respected AND productive. Brown no doubt has earned the respect of his teammates, but his stat line died 4 years ago.

 

[redseat]

I think you need to have both and for a while he did. Not so much anymore and he makes way too much money for intangibles.

Look at the captains around the league, they are generally well respected AND productive. Brown no doubt has earned the respect of his teammates, but his stat line died 4 years ago.

Yeah i guess you are right. But you can be "productive" without actually scoring. I mean you can get double teamed, pass well, defend well etc, not necessarily score.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Yeah i guess you are right. But you can be "productive" without actually scoring. I mean you can get double teamed, pass well, defend well etc, not necessarily score.

I completely agree with you, and for a while even as the scoring clip went down he was doing that. Maybe a big hit, or some board work, making something happen. He doesn't even do that anymore and in this new era of analytics his numbers prove that.

He has seen significant time on the first line over the years with Kopitar and another T6 forward (Gaborik, Toffoli, Lucic, etc.) and not much, then bounced around between L2-4 and no results. He doesn't even hit that much anymore, which was his calling card.

The last I can remember him making an impact that resulted in something significant for LA was during the SJ series where he leveled Donskoi, Pearson picks ups the puck at the blueline and goes in on a two on one and scored the GW goal. It was a great play and the Brown of old we had seen for so many years. Unfortunately, those plays have been way too far and few between the last 4 years.

Someone mentioned here years ago that maybe his family life has had an effect on him, he has 4 kids under the age of 10. I myself have 4 kids in that same situation (10, 6, 5 and 3. In his case I think he rattled of like 4 in 5 years or something so they are very close and younger) and believe me, that wears you out. I don't have the energy like I used to and mentally it's taxing. It emotionally wipes you out knowing there is a long road ahead, how will you provide for this family, the responsibilities, etc. I didn't take it too seriously back then but now going through it, I think it's a legitimate concern.

Eventually you settle into that role, but for me it's different because I'm around my kids constantly. Him however, he is not being on the road for half the year. I think when he comes home it's a bit of a shock, which starts that whole mindset again. And anyone knows, when your head is off, other things suffer - work, personal life, relationships, etc.

I think the best thing he could do is retire - he would get that uninterrupted family time, he has plenty of money in the bank, he delivered what he set out to do in LA, and the money would come off the Kings' books being an under 35+ contract.

Sounds kooky, but just throwing things out there.

 

[Kings4OT]

I think the best thing he could do is retire - he would get that uninterrupted family time, he has plenty of money in the bank, he delivered what he set out to do in LA, and the money would come off the Kings' books being an under 35+ contract.

Sounds kooky, but just throwing things out there.

I think I brought this up awhile ago lol.

I was one to defend Brown for awhile but Puck is right, he doesn't even bring intangibles to the game anymore. A leader must lead, he doesn't do that. I believe the injury really did him in, yes his production was already way down but the big timely hits went away when he came back from that. If he could make plays/hits like the one on Donskoi you could at least argue his validity. As it is the only thing you can point to as a Brown defender is that he was the guy wearing the C when they won the cup.....Everyone one of those King players will for ever be appreciated for their part in winning the cup, but everyone moves on one way or another.

 

[Psych3man]

Agree with the Brown commentary but I believe the biggest moment of his captaincy was the hit on Sedin in Cup run #1 that knocked him out of the game and set the tone for the rest of the run.
Unfortunately, downhill from there to this...how do we get rid of one of the shittiest contracts in hockey?

 

[PuckinUgly57]

I think I brought this up awhile ago lol.

I was one to defend Brown for awhile but Puck is right, he doesn't even bring intangibles to the game anymore. A leader must lead, he doesn't do that. I believe the injury really did him in, yes his production was already way down but the big timely hits went away when he came back from that. If he could make plays/hits like the one on Donskoi you could at least argue his validity. As it is the only thing you can point to as a Brown defender is that he was the guy wearing the C when they won the cup.....Everyone one of those King players will for ever be appreciated for their part in winning the cup, but everyone moves on one way or another.

And that's what it comes down to, sentiment. I am forever thankful he was sporting the C not once but twice winning the Cup, as a fan getting to see that two times is unreal. Squeaking in a WCF appearance in between is nothing short of awesome as well and as close to a mini dynasty we have seen as Kings fans. To me it meant even more considering what a joke of a franchise this has been for the better part of its now 50 year existence.

But sentiment and reality are two different things; thus why I don't become emotionally attached to players. We have seen fan favorites Robitaille (twice), Gretzky, McSorley (twice), move on and we dealt just fine. The thing is too of the guys mentioned, none brought one Cup let alone two to LA. I get it...people love Brown.

The thing is though if there were no cap, it wouldn't be a problem but since that is the financial world that runs the NHL now decisions need to be made and contracts needs to be carefully dished out. This was a horrible contract for Dumbo, and I am not sure why he even considered it let alone offered it but it has and will continue to hamper the Kings until it is off the books unless he somehow miraculously returns to being a 25G/60P point guy at this stage of his career.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Agree with the Brown commentary but I believe the biggest moment of his captaincy was the hit on Sedin in Cup run #1 that knocked him out of the game and set the tone for the rest of the run.
Unfortunately, downhill from there to this...how do we get rid of one of the shittiest contracts in hockey?

Million dollar question. He does have a limited NTC but the good news is that he doesn't have an NMC, which would have prevented him from being on any potential Expansion Draft list. I'm thinking he has been and will continue to be actively shopped, he knows it, and I'm hoping he plays balls out so that he can have some control over the destination he will end up at via trade or Expansion. My expectation is that Brown is no longer a King by summer 2017 latest.

While I think that hit on Sedin was huge (Sedin came back, he was just floored) it was actually Mike Richards in Game 1 who dropped Burrows like a bad habit and sent that message. Brown just reiterated it later in Game 3 with that hit on Sedin but it was Richards who led by example and let them know "we are here to play".

That play to me is the defining moment of this entire franchise, leaving the losing mentality behind after 45 years.


Brown on Sedin

 

[Kings4OT]

I agree the Richards hit set the tone, while the Brown hit was huge. Watch the difference in the two afterwards, Richards ends up throwing Burrows back onto the ice while its up to Kopitar and Mitchell to protect Brown even on that play...sure Brown doesn't drop the gloves but sometimes you need to step up so your team mates don't have to

 

[CaptHowdy00]

I was a big Brown defender. He reminded me of a guy who had to fight for recognition and was very underrated when he first came on and at the start of his career, ala Robitaille.
Now, I deffense him during 2014, in fact during that first round against the Sharks I was on a business trip to California, met up with Puck and we were drinking beers while talking shop. I was defending Brown even then. At the end of the 14/15 season I came to believe that Brown is not going to get any better and his contract is not a good one. Mind you I'm of the opinion that you should get yours when you can. And that this is a business and both sides are taking a risk. But after the season when they missed the playoffs, and he scored yet a career low again, it has become clear that his contract is an albatross.
I appreciate what he has done with and for the Kings, but we are talking about current results in this "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" business.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

Stumbled on this read, it's a little older but worth it. Los of guys have been stripped of the captaincy and went on to still be great players and fan favorites.

BarDown: NHL captains who were stripped of the “C”

 

[PuckinUgly57]

I was a big Brown defender. He reminded me of a guy who had to fight for recognition and was very underrated when he first came on and at the start of his career, ala Robitaille.
Now, I deffense him during 2014, in fact during that first round against the Sharks I was on a business trip to California, met up with Puck and we were drinking beers while talking shop. I was defending Brown even then. At the end of the 14/15 season I came to believe that Brown is not going to get any better and his contract is not a good one. Mind you I'm of the opinion that you should get yours when you can. And that this is a business and both sides are taking a risk. But after the season when they missed the playoffs, and he scored yet a career low again, it has become clear that his contract is an albatross.
I appreciate what he has done with and for the Kings, but we are talking about current results in this "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" business.

Ahh...the infamous hotel off the 91. I went off the rails that night after I left you, paid for it the next day.

Good times. Well, except for the ass kicking the Charks put on the Kings that night.

=)~~

This is unfortunately a results driven business, not a think tank, and it stinks to see Brown's career to come to this. But he makes a ton of money to be a pylon out there, and the Kings need reinforcements elsewhere. They need another T6 forward but more importantly an upgrade on defense and that is where the main money should be spent.

Brown's money is preventing that, or at the very least is a huge factor preventing that, and needs to be addressed. It's killing LA.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

I agree the Richards hit set the tone, while the Brown hit was huge. Watch the difference in the two afterwards, Richards ends up throwing Burrows back onto the ice while its up to Kopitar and Mitchell to protect Brown even on that play...sure Brown doesn't drop the gloves but sometimes you need to step up so your team mates don't have to

That was always my biggest beef with him. I remember getting into it with Deader numerous times about this very topic, his stance being he is a T6 forward and shouldn't be dropping gloves and spending time in the box.

Fair enough, and I agree. I didn't like seeing Lucic in the box a ton but you know he will not tolerate nonsense. Brown however, has some aversion to even getting involved in the fisticuffs. You throw down now and again, someone will think twice before coming after you - will he or won't he this time? - but you don't do anything almost 100% of the time and they know they can come after you no question. So while I wouldn't have liked to see him constantly fighting, I think now and again would have been OK.

And seeing those videos, it didn't even dawn on me to look at the responses from Richards vs. Brown until you pointed it out. You can tell who the real leader was in personality. Unapologetic and defended himself. Matt Green is standing right there with Richards but Richards handled it on his own.

Meanwhile, Brown is sliding around on one knee and there is a body constantly between him and a Canuck. Then Burrows goes after Kopitar? Really? That is exactly what happens when you don't police yourself.

Because of that hit, the Kings get a PP but their 1C is sitting in the box because of the C's lack of response for something he created (don't get me wrong, loved the hit. And those Canadian homers needed to STFU, the hit was not late, it was not dirty in any way but they keep rambling on about it).

 

[Kings4OT]

I also don't mind him not dropping the gloves all the time, but you have to occasionally when you play like he did. Instead other players had to stick up for his play and some even got retaliation hits laid on them because he did "run away". When better players are in the box or hurt because he didn't stick up for himself or his team the "he's a T6 guy" is a hollow argument

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

I am not offended, I am a fan who appreciates what he did for the Kings and his community but think its time for him to go. Brown has been a waste of cap space for a long time, you thinking he is worth that contract doesn't offend me or make me mad....makes me laugh more then anything

I wasn't talking about Brown's contract, nor was I calling out King fans for anything (it just came off that way because this is the Kings board and topics on good teams don't come up in the NHL General Forum). I just think that Dustin Brown should get more respect for being the captain of 2 Cup winning teams, which he doesn't seem to get because people don't like his attitude or playing style.

Just look at other captains that have won the Cup since the 1967 expansion...
-Jonathan Toews
-Zdeno Chara
-Sidney Crosby
-Nicklas Lidstrom
-Scott Niedermayer
-Rod Brind'Amour
-Dave Andreychuck
-Scott Stevens
-Joe Sakic
-Derian Hatcher
-Steve Yzerman
-Mark Messier
-Guy Carbonneau
-Mario Lemieux
-Lanny MacDonald
-Wayne Gretzky
-Bob Gainey
-Denis Potvin
-Serge Savard
-Yvan Cournoyer
-Bobby Clarke
-Henri Richard
-Jean Beliveau
-George Armstrong

Pretty much all those captains are highly revered, not just by the fans of the teams they led to the Cup(s), but by NHL fans as a whole. Seems to me that Dustin Brown never got the respect he truly deserved for being the captain of 2 Stanley Cup winning teams. That's really all I was trying to say.

 

[PuckinUgly57]

That is a great list you have there, there are some stellar players throughout the history of the NHL.

The common denominators I see in all them however are:
1. Most are HOF captains
2. Most were extremely skilled (sorry Derian Hatcher)
3. Most had solid statistics, some with over 750-1000 points

I don't think Brown will be a HOF player, he isn't extremely skilled, and his statistics are pretty average:
470P/884GP = .532PPG
218G/884GP = .246GPG
252A/884GP = .285APG

For objectivity's sake I picked Rod Brind'Amour as a comp since he is on this list, is a F like Brown, played a similar physical style, recently retired (+/- 10 years, so he played in the post lockout world) and I would think almost all of us are familiar with him not to mention it wouldn't be fair for me to pick a generational talent like Crosby or Richard to compare him to and he stacks up like this:
1184P/1484GP = .800PPG
452G/1484GP = .305GPG
732A/1484GP = .493APG

On the statistics alone he blows Brown away, and he was extremely well respected around the league as were most of these other guys (sorry Derian Hatcher x 2). His last season was 2009-10 and at 36 years old he still put up 51 points.

One of the biggest differences I am seeing is these guys all were consistent throughout their careers points wise, but the bigger thing is they had exceptional leadership qualities. The reason Brown doesn't have the clout, to me anyway, is because he doesn't carry himself as a Captain.

 

[Kings4OT]

Ditto what Puck said. I have seen most of those players play and I think I have seen most all of them stand up for their teammates even when out muscled. Brown will usually come to the pile after waiting for other team mates to step up, even then he is on the outside of the scrum barely with a hand barely on a jersey

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

That is a great list you have there, there are some stellar players throughout the history of the NHL.

The common denominators I see in all them however are:
1. Most are HOF captains
2. Most were extremely skilled (sorry Derian Hatcher)
3. Most had solid statistics, some with over 750-1000 points

I don't think Brown will be a HOF player, he isn't extremely skilled, and his statistics are pretty average:
470P/884GP = .532PPG
218G/884GP = .246GPG
252A/884GP = .285APG

For objectivity's sake I picked Rod Brind'Amour as a comp since he is on this list, is a F like Brown, played a similar physical style, recently retired (+/- 10 years, so he played in the post lockout world) and I would think almost all of us are familiar with him not to mention it wouldn't be fair for me to pick a generational talent like Crosby or Richard to compare him to and he stacks up like this:
1184P/1484GP = .800PPG
452G/1484GP = .305GPG
732A/1484GP = .493APG

On the statistics alone he blows Brown away, and he was extremely well respected around the league as were most of these other guys (sorry Derian Hatcher x 2). His last season was 2009-10 and at 36 years old he still put up 51 points.

One of the biggest differences I am seeing is these guys all were consistent throughout their careers points wise, but the bigger thing is they had exceptional leadership qualities. The reason Brown doesn't have the clout, to me anyway, is because he doesn't carry himself as a Captain.

Ditto what Puck said. I have seen most of those players play and I think I have seen most all of them stand up for their teammates even when out muscled. Brown will usually come to the pile after waiting for other team mates to step up, even then he is on the outside of the scrum barely with a hand barely on a jersey

Interesting perspectives. I guess from the outside, I always thought the hate he got was from the borderline dirty hits. Didn't realize he didn't stick up for teammates, that is rather surprising to me considering his greatest attribute is his physicality.