Best HOF ballot of the year

[Chef99]

So where does Palmeiro fit in this whole mess? Shouldn't he have gotten in?

 

[calsnowskier]

So where does Palmeiro fit in this whole mess? Shouldn't he have gotten in?

For me, at no point in his career was Palmeiro considered one of the top 2-3 1B in the game. He has accumulated stats, and that is about it.

Hall of Really Good. I am not even sure he belongs in the Hall of Very Good.

 

[uncfan103]

The earliest occurrence I can find of anything mentioning the illegality of steroids in baseball, is the memo. You obviously have something from earlier. Can you show me?

"Many have asserted that steroids and other performance enhancing substances were not banned in Major League Baseball before the 2002 Basic Agreement. This is not accurate. Beginning in 1971 and continuing today, Major League Baseball's drug policy has prohibited the use of any prescription medication without a valid prescription. By implication, this prohibition applied to steroids even before 1991, when Commissioner Fay Vincent first expressly included steroids in baseball's drug policy. Steroids have been listed as a prohibited substance under the Major League Baseball drug policy since then, although no player was disciplined for steroid use before the prohibition was added to the collective bargaining agreement in 2002.
"It is also inaccurate to assert, as some have, that baseball's drug policy was not binding on players before it was added to the collective bargaining agreement. Many players were suspended for drug offenses before 2002, even though none of those suspensions related to the use of steroids or other performance enhancing substances. Some suspensions were reduced in grievance arbitrations brought by the Players Association, but no arbitrator ever has questioned the authority of the Commissioner to discipline players for 'just cause' based on their possession, use, or distribution of prohibited drugs.""

The article is from sports illustrated and the article is quoting the Mitchell report.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1151761/2/index.htm

 

[soxfan1468927]

"Many have asserted that steroids and other performance enhancing substances were not banned in Major League Baseball before the 2002 Basic Agreement. This is not accurate. Beginning in 1971 and continuing today, Major League Baseball's drug policy has prohibited the use of any prescription medication without a valid prescription. By implication, this prohibition applied to steroids even before 1991, when Commissioner Fay Vincent first expressly included steroids in baseball's drug policy. Steroids have been listed as a prohibited substance under the Major League Baseball drug policy since then, although no player was disciplined for steroid use before the prohibition was added to the collective bargaining agreement in 2002.
"It is also inaccurate to assert, as some have, that baseball's drug policy was not binding on players before it was added to the collective bargaining agreement. Many players were suspended for drug offenses before 2002, even though none of those suspensions related to the use of steroids or other performance enhancing substances. Some suspensions were reduced in grievance arbitrations brought by the Players Association, but no arbitrator ever has questioned the authority of the Commissioner to discipline players for 'just cause' based on their possession, use, or distribution of prohibited drugs.""

The article is from sports illustrated and the article is quoting the Mitchell report.

Link: A primer on baseball's steroid policy through the years - 02.16.09 - SI Vault

Anabolic steroids didn't become illegal without a prescription in the US until 1990, per the Anabolic Steroid Control Act

 

[uncfan103]

Anabolic steroids didn't become illegal without a prescription in the US until 1990, per the Anabolic Steroid Control Act

Which made it illegal in 1990 to use steroids in baseball, right? That would've been before the Vincent memo

 

[TKOSpikes]

I think they're gonna have to rename the HOF to HOFP.

Former Hall of Fame, now Hall of Former Players.

This will be my last interaction with the topic of Hall of Fame. It is an absolute disgrace, an absolute joke and after seeing Jacques Jones, Armando Benitez and JT Snow on ballots, I have no further interest in what the idiots of the world (oops, I mean the Baseball Sports Writers of America) have to say about anything.

ABSOLUTE JOKE

 

[gunnarthor]

I think they're gonna have to rename the HOF to HOFP.

Former Hall of Fame, now Hall of Former Players.

This will be my last interaction with the topic of Hall of Fame. It is an absolute disgrace, an absolute joke and after seeing Jacques Jones, Armando Benitez and JT Snow on ballots, I have no further interest in what the idiots of the world (oops, I mean the Baseball Sports Writers of America) have to say about anything.

ABSOLUTE JOKE

But you know why Jones et al were on the ballot, right?

And the handwringing over the hall is getting a bit nuts. Most fans, sportswriters and players don't want the steroid guys in the HOF. It's not like not having a plaque is going to make anyone forget about Palmeiro or Ortiz. They are just withholding one last honor.

 

[TKOSpikes]

Comparing Bonds to Palmeiro is like comparing a tree to a bush... the difference is obvious.

And yes, I know why those duds were put on the ballots, but in my opinion that is a bigger disgrace than all the BS surrounding steroids.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Hall of Stats acquired as many public ballots as they could and came up with, what they consider to be the best HOF ballot they've seen. Michael Silverman of the Boston Globe

1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Greg Maddux
4. Curt Schilling
5. Jeff Bagwell
6. Mike Mussina
7. Tom Glavine
8. Mike Piazza
9. Frank Thomas
10. Tim Raines

He said he had to leave Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent, and Mark McGwire off because of space limitations. Well done Michael Silverman. More voters should be like you. There is hope.

I wouldn't say this was the best ballot. Craig Biggio was clearly one of the 10 most deserving players on the ballot. But it is solid, and I agree, more should be like him.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

So where does Palmeiro fit in this whole mess? Shouldn't he have gotten in?

Why should he have gotten in? He was never an elite player at his position, never the best player on his team. Even if he never had a hint of PED suspicion attached to his name, I probably would have struggled to vote for him, and called him borderline. Reaching two arbitrary milestones is impressive, but not necessarily HOF-worthy. He was just another power-hitting first baseman in an era filled with them.

Then, once you consider that nearly his entire career is attributable to PED use and playing in bandboxes, the decision becomes more obvious. He'd have been Mark Grace if he hadn't hooked up with Canseco in Texas.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

"Many have asserted that steroids and other performance enhancing substances were not banned in Major League Baseball before the 2002 Basic Agreement. This is not accurate. Beginning in 1971 and continuing today, Major League Baseball's drug policy has prohibited the use of any prescription medication without a valid prescription. By implication, this prohibition applied to steroids even before 1991, when Commissioner Fay Vincent first expressly included steroids in baseball's drug policy. Steroids have been listed as a prohibited substance under the Major League Baseball drug policy since then, although no player was disciplined for steroid use before the prohibition was added to the collective bargaining agreement in 2002.
"It is also inaccurate to assert, as some have, that baseball's drug policy was not binding on players before it was added to the collective bargaining agreement. Many players were suspended for drug offenses before 2002, even though none of those suspensions related to the use of steroids or other performance enhancing substances. Some suspensions were reduced in grievance arbitrations brought by the Players Association, but no arbitrator ever has questioned the authority of the Commissioner to discipline players for 'just cause' based on their possession, use, or distribution of prohibited drugs.""

The article is from sports illustrated and the article is quoting the Mitchell report.

Link: A primer on baseball's steroid policy through the years - 02.16.09 - SI Vault

So amphetemines have been banned by baseball since 1971. Funny, since clubs used to provide them directly to the players in the clubhouse, next to the coffee, bubble gum and sunflower seeds.

See how ludicrous your post is?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Which made it illegal in 1990 to use steroids in baseball, right? That would've been before the Vincent memo

Even pretending that what you're saying matters in reality, and that steroids were indeed illegal by the rules of the sport... There was no testing. There was also no punishment. So what's the deterrent exactly? In order for a rule or law to be binding, doesn't there have to be a way to catch the rule being broken and punitive measures to deter people from breaking the rule?

So, there you go.

 

[uncfan103]

Even pretending that what you're saying matters in reality, and that steroids were indeed illegal by the rules of the sport... There was no testing. There was also no punishment. So what's the deterrent exactly? In order for a rule or law to be binding, doesn't there have to be a way to catch the rule being broken and punitive measures to deter people from breaking the rule?

So, there you go.

I never said there was a deterrent. But to say that since you can't get caught you might as well cheat is also not a legitimate argument. If players would've been caught using steroids there could have been penalties, just as there were penalties for using other illegal drugs. I don't think it makes any sense to say it's not really a rule since it's not being tested for.

I can't speak on amphetamine use because I have no idea about it's legality or the usage of it in baseball.

 

[Chef99]

Why should he have gotten in? He was never an elite player at his position, never the best player on his team. Even if he never had a hint of PED suspicion attached to his name, I probably would have struggled to vote for him, and called him borderline. Reaching two arbitrary milestones is impressive, but not necessarily HOF-worthy. He was just another power-hitting first baseman in an era filled with them.

Then, once you consider that nearly his entire career is attributable to PED use and playing in bandboxes, the decision becomes more obvious. He'd have been Mark Grace if he hadn't hooked up with Canseco in Texas.

Be that as it may, over 500 home runs and over 3000 hits. He joins Mays, Aaron and Murray as the only players to do so, and is the only one not in. This is a portent of things to come: if he doesn't get in, none of the PED guys do. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I'd be willing to bet that it is the way things will turn out.

 

[gunnarthor]

Why should he have gotten in? He was never an elite player at his position, never the best player on his team. Even if he never had a hint of PED suspicion attached to his name, I probably would have struggled to vote for him, and called him borderline. Reaching two arbitrary milestones is impressive, but not necessarily HOF-worthy. He was just another power-hitting first baseman in an era filled with them.

Then, once you consider that nearly his entire career is attributable to PED use and playing in bandboxes, the decision becomes more obvious. He'd have been Mark Grace if he hadn't hooked up with Canseco in Texas.

Ignoring PEDs, he's a pretty clear HOFer. 61% of his seasons with 250PA, he was worth 4 WAR or more. That's a pretty strong percentage. For comparison, Tim Raines managed that in 42% of those seasons.

His counting stats are no-brainers but so are WAR. His wOBA+ is .380 over 12000PA which is also amazing and compares favorably with guys like Al Kaline and Wade Boggs. I agree his not a top shelf HOFer but if you have a HOF with Murray and Perez and Billy Williams then Palmeiro is a HOFer, too. PEDs is the issue.