Beltran would consider coming back if the Giants improve the offense

[msgkings322]

I'm praying to God Sabean doesn't make a trade for Stubbs, Upton, Span or some other high upside, yet still not producing like they should guys.

Well, what are you praying to God that he DOES do to fix CF and/or leadoff hitter? Keep it real...

 

[tzill]

I will whine, moan, and bitch with the best of them once Wheeler wins a CY while the Giants are going through pitcher injuries.

That is my JOB as a fan.

Even the AJ trade was not a bad trade at the time. It is only through the 20/20 hindsight glasses that it turns into a horrible deal for the Giants.

Repped for being the only guy on that island with me....

 

[calsnowskier]

Repped for being the only guy on that island with me....

Really?

I did not realize this was such a controversial stance.

1) AJ was considered one of the top catchers in the game at the time.
2) Liriano was already establishing himself as an injury-prone player, even though he also had limitless talent.
3) Nathan was a serviceable bully guy, but he did not show ANY glimpses if what he was to become.
4) Bonser was a nice prospect, and he was simply the price of doing business.

In hindsight, Liriano turned into EXCTLY what we thought he was and Bonser essentially flopped. Nathan, of course became an elite closer and AJ's d-baggery took full charge.

 

[tzill]

Really?

I did not realize this was such a controversial stance.

1) AJ was considered one of the top catchers in the game at the time.
2) Liriano was already establishing himself as an injury-prone player, even though he also had limitless talent.
3) Nathan was a serviceable bully guy, but he did not show ANY glimpses if what he was to become.
4) Bonser was a nice prospect, and he was simply the price of doing business.

In hindsight, Liriano turned into EXCTLY what we thought he was and Bonser essentially flopped. Nathan, of course became an elite closer and AJ's d-baggery took full charge.

I agree. Liriano had NEVER had a healthy pro season, so his injuries were to be expected. Nathan was a competent middle relief guy (and you have to give value to get value). Bonser was the guy I thought might be the painful loss.

Agreed all the way around, however, the vast majority of the pantshatosphere (hey! a new portmanteau!) considers it The Worst Trade Ever Made.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

I agree. Liriano had NEVER had a healthy pro season, so his injuries were to be expected. Nathan was a competent middle relief guy (and you have to give value to get value). Bonser was the guy I thought might be the painful loss.

Agreed all the way around, however, the vast majority of the pantshatosphere (hey! a new portmanteau!) considers it The Worst Trade Ever Made.

I can honestly say I HATED that trade from the second it was made. Not in hindsight and not without reason.

The way I looked at it we gave up an excellent reliever for a catcher who sure put up decent stats but wasn't a huge an upgrade (definitely not a B+ reliever worth of an upgrade) over our current catcher who was admittedly on the downside of his enhanced career. Plus I thought Torrealba could just take over - hey I didn't say all of my reasoning was spot on.

I like my players homegrown which also led me to hate that trade immediately. So I stand by my original feelings on that matter - even though I do understand the intent behind the trade, it sucked and I didn't like it, but then who really gives a shit about anything pre-2010? Except maybe Will Clark and Rod Beck and 1989 so yeah I guess I do give a shit. Fuck that trade!

 

[SFGRTB]

The trade really doesn't effect me that much. Bonser never amounted into anything special, Liriano hasn't even reached the 200 inning mark in his career and has had only 1 good season (2006 was great but he didn't pitch a full year). Nathan was the only loss but really is it that big of a loss? Giants weren't doing anything from 2005-2008 (his peak seasons) and now he's been injured in 2010 and trending down this year. And now we've had Wilson since 2008.

Who knows, if Blownitez and company aren't doing their thing in that time, maybe we miss out on Lincecum or Bumgarner.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Just my opinion, but rather than spend $20-ish million a year for Beltran, I'd rather get two players for $10 million per. All else being equal.

We will still have championship-caliber pitching in 2012, and we showed in 2010 that we don't have to have a superstar hitter to win it all.

If nothing emerges off-season, don't force the issue. Keep our powder dry and wait for the mid-season trade deadline. Someone will want to dump a star, and we can cash in then.

In the meantime, 2011 ain't over till it's over. There's somethin' happening here...what it is ain't exactly clear...

 

[Stokes1931]

Just my opinion, but rather than spend $20-ish million a year for Beltran, I'd rather get two players for $10 million per. All else being equal.

We will still have championship-caliber pitching in 2012, and we showed in 2010 that we don't have to have a superstar hitter to win it all.

If nothing emerges off-season, don't force the issue. Keep our powder dry and wait for the mid-season trade deadline. Someone will want to dump a star, and we can cash in then.

In the meantime, 2011 ain't over till it's over. There's somethin' happening here...what it is ain't exactly clear...

Nice Buffalo Springfield reference!

 

[mistgl]

Well, what are you praying to God that he DOES do to fix CF and/or leadoff hitter? Keep it real...

Not getting one of those guys would be a start...

Span is ok, but not worth what the twins will want. (They wanted Clippard AND Storren from the Nats)

 

[msgkings322]

Not getting one of those guys would be a start...

Span is ok, but not worth what the twins will want. (They wanted Clippard AND Storren from the Nats)

OK, not sure what the market really is for these guys, but noted. So we know who you don't want.

Do you want to upgrade the positions at all, or just go with Torres or Ross (in CF) or Crawford (at SS) or what?

 

[mistgl]

OK, not sure what the market really is for these guys, but noted. So we know who you don't want.

Do you want to upgrade the positions at all, or just go with Torres or Ross (in CF) or Crawford (at SS) or what?

I'm all for upgrades, but they're not upgrades. The reason I mentioned them is because all three are considered to be on the trading block this winter.

Sad reality is that there are no amazingly better options than what we already have. Coco is the top CF FA, and Reyes/Rollins is a pipe dream.

 

[BeerMe]

It's been talked about here before but I'd like to see how Nate does in cf

 

[msgkings322]

I'm all for upgrades, but they're not upgrades. The reason I mentioned them is because all three are considered to be on the trading block this winter.

Sad reality is that there are no amazingly better options than what we already have. Coco is the top CF FA, and Reyes/Rollins is a pipe dream.

Totally agree, which is why I favor getting Crisp. The money is less important than getting him for only 2 years, so Brown can replace him.

 

[msgkings322]

It's been talked about here before but I'd like to see how Nate does in cf

It's worth considering, but only if we get a real bat in RF and I don't think we will re-sign Beltran.

 

[tzill]

I can honestly say I HATED that trade from the second it was made. Not in hindsight and not without reason.

The way I looked at it we gave up an excellent reliever for a catcher who sure put up decent stats but wasn't a huge an upgrade (definitely not a B+ reliever worth of an upgrade) over our current catcher who was admittedly on the downside of his enhanced career. Plus I thought Torrealba could just take over - hey I didn't say all of my reasoning was spot on.

I like my players homegrown which also led me to hate that trade immediately. So I stand by my original feelings on that matter - even though I do understand the intent behind the trade, it sucked and I didn't like it, but then who really gives a shit about anything pre-2010? Except maybe Will Clark and Rod Beck and 1989 so yeah I guess I do give a shit. Fuck that trade!

Have to disagree here...Nathan wasn't an "excellent reliever," he was the equivalent of Ramon Ramirez. Let's put it this way:

We trade: Ramon Ramirez, Eric Surkamp, and Westcott for Alex Avila.

Do you make that deal?

I sure as HELL do.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Have to disagree here...Nathan wasn't an "excellent reliever," he was the equivalent of Ramon Ramirez. Let's put it this way:

We trade: Ramon Ramirez, Eric Surkamp, and Westcott for Alex Avila.

Do you make that deal?

I sure as HELL do.

Haha, well I disagree that Ramon Ramirez isn't an excellent reliever. Is our bullpen that good that people forget how excellent it is? Ramirez would be the top setup man on almost every other team given how he has pitched - not just this season but for the past several years.

In any case Nathan put up excellent numbers in 2003 and when you consider it was 2003* those numbers are even more impressive, plus it was his first full season in that role.

There's really no point in discussing any other hypothetical trade because I'm not talking hypotheticals - I'm talking about my actual take on an actual trade and it stands as is and has been the same since the day of the trade and for reasons that have nothing to do with hindsight.

 

[jingo]

Is Keppinger a free agent? If so, do we sign him? Would he be a capable shortstop, sharing starts with Crawford? I'd like to see Crawford given a little more time to decide whether he can hit major league pitching or whether he's nothing more than John Stamos with a good glove.

Unfortunately, I am not in favor of bringing back Cody Ross. For all of the criticism directed at Beltran, I am more disappointed in the seasons that Ross and Huff had (I am aware that Huff is a "good year - bad year" player). We may be "stuck" with Huff for another year but I don't want to pay Ross to flail away or pop it up for 3/4 of the season. I would rather watch Belt and Pill bat than Ross and Huff but maybe that's because my expectations were so much higher for Ross and Huff.

Someone mentioned that Brown is two years away. Is it possible that he could be ready sooner? Are there any left field free agents with power?

While not intimidating, considering our pitching and the home park, is this lineup capable of making it to the playoffs?

C - Posey
1b - Belt/Pill
2b - Sanchez
3b - Sandoval
ss - Keppinger/Crawford
lf - ?
cf - Brown/Torres
rf - Beltran/Schierholz

 

[SFGRTB]

Is Keppinger a free agent? If so, do we sign him? Would he be a capable shortstop, sharing starts with Crawford? I'd like to see Crawford given a little more time to decide whether he can hit major league pitching or whether he's nothing more than John Stamos with a good glove.

Unfortunately, I am not in favor of bringing back Cody Ross. For all of the criticism directed at Beltran, I am more disappointed in the seasons that Ross and Huff had (I am aware that Huff is a "good year - bad year" player). We may be "stuck" with Huff for another year but I don't want to pay Ross to flail away or pop it up for 3/4 of the season. I would rather watch Belt and Pill bat than Ross and Huff but maybe that's because my expectations were so much higher for Ross and Huff.

Someone mentioned that Brown is two years away. Is it possible that he could be ready sooner? Are there any left field free agents with power?

While not intimidating, considering our pitching and the home park, is this lineup capable of making it to the playoffs?

C - Posey
1b - Belt/Pill
2b - Sanchez
3b - Sandoval
ss - Keppinger/Crawford
lf - ?
cf - Brown/Torres
rf - Beltran/Schierholz

Kepp is arbitration eligible, therefore under team control. Wouldn't be surprised to see him signed to a 2 year deal, but he wont be the starting SS. Not enough range or arm to play it. He might fill in there occasionally but not a starter.

You aren't alone on Ross. Most would only like to see him back if he took a significant paycut. And in your lineup why is LF vacant? Huff would be at 1B and Belt will be in LF.

Brown will NOT be ready to start going into next season. There's a reason he stayed in A Ball all year. He may be a September callup next year, but he's not ready for a fulltime role yet.

 

[Heathbar012]

Kepp is arbitration eligible, therefore under team control. Wouldn't be surprised to see him signed to a 2 year deal, but he wont be the starting SS. Not enough range or arm to play it. He might fill in there occasionally but not a starter.

You aren't alone on Ross. Most would only like to see him back if he took a significant paycut. And in your lineup why is LF vacant? Huff would be at 1B and Belt will be in LF.

Brown will NOT be ready to start going into next season. There's a reason he stayed in A Ball all year. He may be a September callup next year, but he's not ready for a fulltime role yet.

Repped. Very well said. I would simply add that if Beltran does sign with the Giants, Schierholtz should be given a shot in center (EDIT: I know this has been mentioned many times before, just not in regards to this line-up). He played too well before his injury this season to not even get a shot at an everyday position (and I doubt he would be more than a platoon player if CF is closed to him for some reason). A position I believe he would win over Torres/pay-cut Ross/Christian (if he gets invited to Spring Training). Belt-Schierholtz-Beltran would be a slightly above average defensive outfield (barring Nate forgetting how to play center since the Olympics).

I think it's safe to assume that if the Giants sign Beltran, they won't be pursuing Crisp, which leaves them without a lead-off hitter for yet another year. However, I agree that Crisp doesn't have everything the Giants are looking for in a CF-No. 1 (not the best arm/luckily makes up for bad reads w/ speed; not enough walks), but he will absolutely come at a better price money and years wise than Beltran. Belt-Crisp-Schierholtz is also a slightly above average defensive outfield, but heading more towards average with Crisp's arm.

The irony of the situation is the table-setter that Beltran wants would likely come at the expense of signing him. Who knows? Sabean and the FO could surprise me and go after both, but then we'd be questioning why they didn't upgrade the shortstop position. Should be an interesting off-season, but I'm glad they aren't mathematically eliminated just yet!

 

[BeerMe]

From yahoo sports:

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP)—Agent Scott Boras expects slugger Carlos Beltran(notes) to seriously consider returning to the San Francisco Giants beyond this season.

Boras is scheduled to have lunch with his client on Tuesday in Los Angeles, where the Giants open a series against the Dodgers. He expects to know more about what Beltran wants after that, perhaps such specifics such as how many years he might seek in a new deal.

The 34-year-old Beltran, who joined the defending World Series champion Giants in a July 28 trade from the New York Mets, has said he will think about his next step once he is home for the offseason.


“Well, you have to remember when Carlos and I sat down to determine what teams he was going to go to, it was his choice,” Boras told The Associated Press on Monday night before attending the “Moneyball” premiere in downtown Oakland. “He came to the Giants for a reason. Obviously he has played very well here. He has gotten a chance to get to know the city and the organization.”

The switch-hitting Beltran told the San Jose Mercury News last week he would like to see San Francisco take steps to upgrade the offense—aside from just getting back a healthy catcher Buster Posey(notes) and second baseman Freddy Sanchez(notes), both out with season-ending injuries—and the parties would be in touch regarding the plan this winter. Addressing the leadoff spot is something else Beltran has noted.

Boras also doesn’t look at Beltran’s next contract as his last, meaning San Francisco could be in the mix even if it makes an offer to Beltran of two or three years. Boras, of course, also wants as many bidders as possible.

Beltran’s decision also could be affected by what happens with the two highest-profile sluggers in free agency: Albert Pujols(notes) and Prince Fielder(notes).

“He’s still only 34 so he has a chance to have one more big contract,” Boras said.

Under the Giants’ new leadership, the club hasn’t been handing out as many long-term deals of late. Management learned a lesson when it signed another Boras client, pitcher Barry Zito(notes), to a $126 million, seven-year contract before the 2007 season.

Last week, managing partner Bill Neukom announced he would step down at the end of the year, while president Larry Baer is being promoted to CEO. Baer will answer to the ownership group’s nine-member executive committee.

“I think a lot of it has to do with Carlos and where he wants to play,” Boras said. “That’s just something we’ll have to talk about. Of course you have to determine what teams have interest in him, too.”

Beltran is batting .333 for San Francisco with five home runs, 16 RBIs, four triples and eight doubles in 35 games. He has bounced back after a stint on the disabled list with a strained right hand and wrist.