Arizona Diamondbacks Ongoing Thread

[tuffydahog]

I said a long time ago that I thought this offseason would be a complete failure if the D'backs failed to land a true ace somehow. Spring training is starting very soon and the D'backs still do not have a true ace. This offseason has now become a complete failure. Kevin Towers has let down the entire fan base and continues to spew his crap that they did the best they could on Tanaka. I do not want to hear anything coming from his mouth again unless it is the words "The D'backs have acquired an ace by the name of ____."

Instead of combining assets and going after the big splash, Towers again threw away prospects for mediocre pieces that will not bring the D'backs a championship. Pitching is everything. I mean absolutely everything. The D'backs were a pretty good offensive team last year, their pitching is what failed them. Not only has Towers not gotten an ace, the team is going into spring training with Cahill and McCarthy still in the rotation. Neither of these guys are any good. It is pathetic.

Maybe Archie Bradley will become a great pitcher, but to rely on him to become the team's ace this season is far too much pressure on a 21 year old. The D'backs are no closer to a championship than they were last year. Bronson Arroyo is a good pitcher but c'mon, does he make the team contenders? Not even close. Only a number one pitcher can do that. The Dodgers and Giants pitching destroys the Diamondbacks. It really is a shame. Kevin Towers' moves have been so bad the past two years it is inexcusable. People laud the Paul Goldschmidt extension and rightly so, but he was already on the team. What starting pitcher has Towers signed or traded for that has impacted the team positively? No one I can think of. All he has done is traded away young pitchers and gotten nothing in return. This guy gives out so many bad contracts. McCarthy makes over 10 million this year, Cahill makes 8 million, and Cody Ross makes 9.5 million. Over 27 million dollars committed to three players that should not even be on the team. Totally embarrassing. I cannot believe his contract was extended. I like Kirk Gibson, but Kevin Towers is an idiot.

 

[LASports96]

That's what Booger (Bolts) said.........

 

[Arizona_Sting]

I said a long time ago that I thought this offseason would be a complete failure if the D'backs failed to land a true ace somehow. Spring training is starting very soon and the D'backs still do not have a true ace. This offseason has now become a complete failure. Kevin Towers has let down the entire fan base and continues to spew his crap that they did the best they could on Tanaka. I do not want to hear anything coming from his mouth again unless it is the words "The D'backs have acquired an ace by the name of ____."

Instead of combining assets and going after the big splash, Towers again threw away prospects for mediocre pieces that will not bring the D'backs a championship. Pitching is everything. I mean absolutely everything. The D'backs were a pretty good offensive team last year, their pitching is what failed them. Not only has Towers not gotten an ace, the team is going into spring training with Cahill and McCarthy still in the rotation. Neither of these guys are any good. It is pathetic.

Maybe Archie Bradley will become a great pitcher, but to rely on him to become the team's ace this season is far too much pressure on a 21 year old. The D'backs are no closer to a championship than they were last year. Bronson Arroyo is a good pitcher but c'mon, does he make the team contenders? Not even close. Only a number one pitcher can do that. The Dodgers and Giants pitching destroys the Diamondbacks. It really is a shame. Kevin Towers' moves have been so bad the past two years it is inexcusable. People laud the Paul Goldschmidt extension and rightly so, but he was already on the team. What starting pitcher has Towers signed or traded for that has impacted the team positively? No one I can think of. All he has done is traded away young pitchers and gotten nothing in return. This guy gives out so many bad contracts. McCarthy makes over 10 million this year, Cahill makes 8 million, and Cody Ross makes 9.5 million. Over 27 million dollars committed to three players that should not even be on the team. Totally embarrassing. I cannot believe his contract was extended. I like Kirk Gibson, but Kevin Towers is an idiot.

I'm confused. Weren't you saying you liked the Arroyo signing? Btw, I completely agree with your post.

 

[tuffydahog]

I'm confused. Weren't you saying you liked the Arroyo signing? Btw, I completely agree with your post.

Yes I like the Arroyo signing, but for him as a number three pitcher to replace Cahill and/or McCarthy. Those guys are unfortunately still on the team. However, even though I like him, Arroyo as the big free agent acquisition to me is very disappointing because he is not an ace. The D'backs were linked to quite a few pitchers in trades this offseason and were not able to make any of them happen. I do not think the D'backs need to do anything offensively and in the field. Their glaring weakness is the starting rotation and that is the most important part of a team.

I just think about when the D'backs won the world series and how they needed the best pitchers in the league to do it. It is always that way. If you have great pitching, you always have a chance.

 

[Davis_Mike]

I love how some fans thinks aces grow on trees. Or that what few aces there are, that they are easily available.

Let me dispel the notion that you need great starting pitching to win the WS.

SP ERA
2013: Boston #11 (3.84)
2012: San Francisco #6 (3.73)
2011: St Louis #12 (3.81)
2010: San Francisco #3 (3.54)
2009: New York(Y) #13 (4.48)
2008: Philadelphia #13 (4.23)
2007: Boston #4 (4.21)
2006: St. Louis #20 (4.79)
2005: Chicago(W) #6 (3.75)
2004: Boston #12 (4.31)

Sure, having a great rotation makes it easier to get to the WS. But as the last 10 years have shown, having just a good rotation with a complete team can win you a WS. The year AZ won the WS, the SP only had an ERA of 3.88. Outside of Johnson, Schilling & sometimes Batista, the starting rotation was plain garbage. People forget the names of Anderson(22 starts & 5.20+ ERA), Ellis(17 starts & 5.70 ERA). Lopez(13 starts & 4.00 ERA), Reynoso(9 starts & 5.98 ERA), Witt(7 starts & 4.78 ERA) Bierbrodt(5 starts & 8.22 ERA), as well as few others with a start or two. While 2014's rotation will not be full of top end talent, it will be far more complete than 2001's rotation. If you take Ian Kennedy's stats out of the equation, minus the strike outs & complete games, 2013's SP rotation numbers are not much different from 2001's numbers as whole.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Davis, no one thinks aces grow on trees, but when KT said it was their "priority" to add a frontline starter I'm pretty sure we all had higher expectations than Bronson Arroyo.

 

[CatsTopPac]

I get what you are saying Davis, and I agree that it's not absolute. But you have to get good pitching to win the WS, even if the staff aren't world beaters during the season. In 2001, AZ had a 1.94 ERA to win the WS.

Last 10 years ERA during WS for the winning team:

2013. Bos------1.84
2012. SF-------1.46
2011. StL------3.86
2010. SF-------2.45
2009. NYY-----4.58
2008. Philly---2.86
2007. Bos-----2.50
2006. StL------2.05
2005. Chi Sox-2.63
2004. Bos------2.50

Obviously your point is valid because you still need a potent offense, and the staff (or starters) don't necessarily need to be the best in baseball to get to the WS. But not too many teams win the WS unless they can pitch really well. Only 2 teams have had a +3.00 ERA, and one above 4.00. Other than that, 6 out of the 10 have a 2.50 ERA or better, and 2 had a sub 2.00 ERA. Same with AZ in 2001. So ultimately (although not absolutely), strong pitching is going to need to be there to win the ring.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Davis, no one thinks aces grow on trees, but when KT said it was their "priority" to add a frontline starter I'm pretty sure we all had higher expectations than Bronson Arroyo.

It's okay to high expectations as long as those expectations are reasonable. You can't fault KT for trying. He tried to add a frontline SP. Nothing panned out. He is damned if does, damned if he doesn't in some fan's eyes. Had he traded Bradley for Price/Lee, many fans would have a shit fit. Look at how some fans reacted to trading redundant B to B+ level prospects for tangible assets that were a priority need. The hate the guy gets is ridiculous considering we haven't had a losing season since he became the GM. And the farm is still ranked just outside of the top 10. That is hard to do when you haven't had losing seasons recently. Most of the top 10 is filled with perennial losing teams outside of STL & Boston.

Fans need to quit the moaning. On paper, the team has improved in almost every facet since the end of the 2013 season.

 

[CatsTopPac]

we haven't had a losing season since he became the GM.

Yeah, I guess it just depends on how you look at it. AZ hasn't had a winning season since his first year as GM. .500 ball is .500 ball.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Same with AZ in 2001. So ultimately (although not absolutely), strong pitching is going to need to be there to win the ring.

There is a difference between strong starting pitching & great starting pitching, for which I was referring to. Also your numbers reflect total pitching staff & not just the starters.

And you also prove my point with the 2013 Red Sox. They performed well in the WS despite not having a great rotation.

Lester: 3.75 -A very good pitcher, but not an ace.
Lackey: 3.54 -A low-end #2/middle of the rotation guy.
Peavy: 4.04 -Now a middle of the rotation guy.
Buchholz: 1.74 -Only pitch part of the season but pitched well & only seen as a middle of the rotation guy.

These were the only SP(s) that started in the WS for Boston. During the regular season, they put middle of the road numbers. In the post season & WS, they pitched lights out. But a lot of that has to do with the way BP(s) get used in the post season.

My overall point is that a complete team with a good solid rotation is better than an incomplete team with a top end heavy rotation that lacks depth.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Yeah, I guess it just depends on how you look at it. AZ hasn't had a winning season since his first year as GM. .500 ball is .500 ball.

He has only been here 3 years. One NLW pennant & 2 .500 seasons in 3 seasons would be considered a success in 75% of the MLB markets.

Has it been a great run of success? No. But if put the whole picture into perspective, two historically bad seasons in a row prior to him taking over, he has definitely been successful as Arizona's GM.

Let me know how many other teams in the division have had 3 straight .500 or better season since KT joined the Dbacks.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Had AZ had a dependable closer in 2013 they would have won the NLW. The BP led the league with 29 blown saves. That was the difference between an 81-81 & an 95-77 season.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Had AZ had a dependable closer in 2013 they would have won the NLW. The BP led the league with 29 blown saves. That was the difference between an 81-81 & an 95-77 season.

Yeah, I'm really hoping Reed has a big year. He has some filthy stuff and if him and the rest of the bullpen can cut that number of blown saves in half then I like our chances of making the playoffs.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

He has only been here 3 years. One NLW pennant & 2 .500 seasons in 3 seasons would be considered a success in 75% of the MLB markets.

Has it been a great run of success? No. But if put the whole picture into perspective, two historically bad seasons in a row prior to him taking over, he has definitely been successful as Arizona's GM.

Let me know how many other teams in the division have had 3 straight .500 or better season since KT joined the Dbacks.

I give zero credit to KT for our 2011 season. He took over a very talented, young core and has slowly torn them apart. The main reason we did so well that year was because of Ian Kennedy's fluke year and Upton's MVP-like year.

It seems like just yesterday when we had 4 of the game's best pitching prospects. Now we have one.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Yeah, I'm really hoping Reed has a big year. He has some filthy stuff and if him and the rest of the bullpen can cut that number of blown saves in half then I like our chances of making the playoffs.

Adding Reed was needed. But the BP depth in the minor has been improved as well. With young arms in Stites & Barrett starting the season in the minors & Harris now likely to start the season in Reno, it gives this team many options when guys start underperforming in the BP.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

All that being said... I'm really looking forward to watching Archie Bradley's development. I am cautiously optimistic because we all know how hit or miss pitching prospects can be, but if he's a "hit" then we are going to have a very, very good pitcher for years to come.

 

[Davis_Mike]

I give zero credit to KT for our 2011 season. He took over a very talented, young core and has slowly torn them apart. The main reason we did so well that year was because of Ian Kennedy's fluke year and Upton's MVP-like year.

It seems like just yesterday when we had 4 of the game's best pitching prospects. Now we have one.

That young core had been in place for several seasons & outside of one postseason run, horribly under performed.

I give him credit because he filled out the roster with players who contributed to the team's success. Adding veteran guys who contributed like Bloomquist, Burroughs, & Blanco. Trading for guys like Hill & Zeigler mid-season & Hernandez before the season. Bringing up Glodschmidt when they did & not rushing him to majors earlier in the season. Without those moves, the team likely doesn't win the NLW.

 

[CatsTopPac]

There is a difference between strong starting pitching & great starting pitching, for which I was referring to. Also your numbers reflect total pitching staff & not just the starters.

And you also prove my point with the 2013 Red Sox. They performed well in the WS despite not having a great rotation.

Lester: 3.75 -A very good pitcher, but not an ace.
Lackey: 3.54 -A low-end #2/middle of the rotation guy.
Peavy: 4.04 -Now a middle of the rotation guy.
Buchholz: 1.74 -Only pitch part of the season but pitched well & only seen as a middle of the rotation guy.

These were the only SP(s) that started in the WS for Boston. During the regular season, they put middle of the road numbers. In the post season & WS, they pitched lights out. But a lot of that has to do with the way BP(s) get used in the post season.

My overall point is that a complete team with a good solid rotation is better than an incomplete team with a top end heavy rotation that lacks depth.

I was trying to prove your point. I was trying to essentially prove both your points. That's why I said that you don't need a bunch of aces during the reg season to win the WS. But you do need guys who can do it in the WS to win. So really both of you guys were correct, it's just that it's not an all or none debate. As you stated, most of the WS winning rotations were mediocre during the season. But it's also true that they need to be good enough to have the ability to step up and pitch great (along with the rest of the staff) to win the WS.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Let me know how many other teams in the division have had 3 straight .500 or better season since KT joined the Dbacks.

I can name one!!!!!!

 

[Davis_Mike]

I can name one!!!!!!

I am glad you took the bait.

The only team that managed to do as good or better than the Dbacks since KT arrived, did it by buying their team. KT managed to do it with half the payroll.