Antonio Brown ruled out vs. Broncos

[cdumler7]

For the first part, it's also natural reaction to lower the head when tackling, yet no one seems to have any issues teaching kids to keep their heads up when tackling, or when a RB has the ball. I don't see any difference here. WR's have to be taught to keep their heads up.

Actually, I'm removing the gray area of the bang-bang play by allowing it to be reviewed. Call the call on the field, and then review it. You are going to get more right than you are wrong, as they already do when making reviews. It's pretty clear when a WR lowers his head, or when a defender is clearly targeting outside of a legal zone.

Like I said, there's no perfect answer, but they've already removed so much from the defenses side of the ball that eventually it's going to just be 2-hand touch. Even if you do everything perfectly as a defender, you can still get a flag. That being the case, it tells me that the rule should be looked at. Not to change the rule so much as to remove protection, but to give the defender the benefit of the doubt that when he does things 100% correctly, he doesn't get penalized.

So if the head comes down an inch does that mean it is a penalty? This is why I say even if you review it there is still gray area. I mean how much is needed for it to be considered moving the head down? How do you practice that type of situation that brown found him in during practice because you can't? You can practice keeping your head up tackling though on a tackling dummy. Big difference.

Like You said there is no perfect answer to fix everything in the NFL and I don't think Burfict had malicious intent on the play but to me that should always be a penalty. I don't think that rule is making it a 2-hand touch type game it is just making defensive players be a little more cautious of where they are hitting a receiver coming over the middle. I played WR in high school and college and to me those type of plays that is the protection I would want. Nothing quite like going over the middle and jumping for a ball knowing 2 guys are coming at you full speed ready to injure you.

 

[DanBengalfan]

I play pickup soccer and ultimate frisbee and I go jogging. I'm a slow ass athlete.

 

[Cincyfan78]

So if the head comes down an inch does that mean it is a penalty? This is why I say even if you review it there is still gray area. I mean how much is needed for it to be considered moving the head down? How do you practice that type of situation that brown found him in during practice because you can't? You can practice keeping your head up tackling though on a tackling dummy. Big difference.

Like You said there is no perfect answer to fix everything in the NFL and I don't think Burfict had malicious intent on the play but to me that should always be a penalty. I don't think that rule is making it a 2-hand touch type game it is just making defensive players be a little more cautious of where they are hitting a receiver coming over the middle. I played WR in high school and college and to me those type of plays that is the protection I would want. Nothing quite like going over the middle and jumping for a ball knowing 2 guys are coming at you full speed ready to injure you.

Anytime the head would come into the area defined as a legal target area, in which the contact is made.

So, if the WR lowers his head into his chest, and that is where the contact occurs, then it should not be a penalty.

If a WR lowers his head, and let's say the face-mask is in the chest area, but the contact is made above the shoulders with the head, then that is a penalty. Contact occured outside of the legal target zone.

Never played WR (other than in pickup games and a few times in practice), but to me you simply can't continue to penalize a guy who does everything right, just because at the last second a vulnerable target are is suddenly lowered into a legal hitting zone.

If you want to prevent injuries, you teach the defenders to hit the chest on down, and you teach the WR's to keep their heads up (just like you do with defenders tackling, and RB's running). The onus for protection should never just be on one side of the ball, or on one person.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I play pickup soccer and ultimate frisbee and I go jogging. I'm a slow ass athlete.

I play vintage base ball (yes, two words). 1860's rules and style. No glove. Gloves are for pussies.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

What you are asking though is for players to go against natural instinct. It is the human body's natural instinct to lower and go towards the fetal position when it looks like a collision is going to happen. The body is trying to protect the major organs like the heart, lungs, and such. Yes the head injury part of it stinks but it is just what the human body does. So I don't blame Brown for lowering his head in that situation. Everybody does it no matter how much you try to coach that out of the player.

Now I guess you can make it not be a penalty but to me it is such a boom/boom play that it would just another gray area of the NFL that everybody gets pissed about the officials deciding things in the game. I thought most fans were wanting less gray area yet here you are suggesting lets just add more to what is an already very confusing playbook.

So where is the grey area in Shazier launching himself, with the crown of the helmet, and hitting Benard directly in the face, and Bernard never had a chance to duck or move into any fetal position causing the incidental contact with the helmet? It was not incidental. Shazier launched himself, led with the crown of his helmet directly into the face of Bernard. The rule states that ANY PLAYER (not just a defenseless player) who gets hit by another player who led with the crown of their helmet, it is a personal foul. This also goes for RB's lowering their head into tacklers. If one player lowers his head, tackles with the crown of his helmet and especially if said crown makes direct contact with another players helmet, it is an immediate foul.

But somehow, Shazier was not penalized, and directly following the play, celebrating and making menacing gestures after knocking Bernard unconscious, he was not penalized for that shit show either.

Prior to that point, Cincinnati had 1 personal foul on Williams making contact on a defenseless WR. No head to head, play was bang bang, no one led with helmet, Williams just got there a tick too early so the defender was labeled defenseless. Okay, penalized. Proper call.

From there, you have a Steeler coach trying to yank the hair out of one of our players on the sidelines. Joey Porter talking shit on the sidelines to our players as they come by or make tackles on that side of the field. Then you have the Shazier incident that made everyone explode.

The only other penalties on Cincinnati were t he ones that ended the game. Burfict's hit that Steeler's players and former Steeler players are claiming was not dirty, then Jones getting flagged because Jey Porter is out on the middle of the field talking shit to Bengals players and pissing everyone off. Jones goes to shove Porter back and as he goes to shove Porter makes contact with a ref. Totally Jones fault for retaliating, but Porter should have never have been in the middle of that causing issues without getting flagged. Jones personal foul; should have been offset by Porter's should have been personal foul.

The two NON-calls for the Steeler's personal fouls led to 1 player being forced out of the game (Bernard), a turnover in the Steelers territory for the Bengals near the red zone when the score was 15-0, and an extra 15 yards for the chip shot FG to lose the game. They made sure Cincinnati got all the personal foul calls at the most critical points in the game.

 

[Cincyfan78]

So where is the grey area in Shazier launching himself, with the crown of the helmet, and hitting Benard directly in the face, and Bernard never had a chance to duck or move into any fetal position causing the incidental contact with the helmet? It was not incidental. Shazier launched himself, led with the crown of his helmet directly into the face of Bernard. The rule states that ANY PLAYER (not just a defenseless player) who gets hit by another player who led with the crown of their helmet, it is a personal foul. This also goes for RB's lowering their head into tacklers. If one player lowers his head, tackles with the crown of his helmet and especially if said crown makes direct contact with another players helmet, it is an immediate foul.

But somehow, Shazier was not penalized, and directly following the play, celebrating and making menacing gestures after knocking Bernard unconscious, he was not penalized for that shit show either.

Prior to that point, Cincinnati had 1 personal foul on Williams making contact on a defenseless WR. No head to head, play was bang bang, no one led with helmet, Williams just got there a tick too early so the defender was labeled defenseless. Okay, penalized. Proper call.

From there, you have a Steeler coach trying to yank the hair out of one of our players on the sidelines. Joey Porter talking shit on the sidelines to our players as they come by or make tackles on that side of the field. Then you have the Shazier incident that made everyone explode.

The only other penalties on Cincinnati were t he ones that ended the game. Burfict's hit that Steeler's players and former Steeler players are claiming was not dirty, then Jones getting flagged because Jey Porter is out on the middle of the field talking shit to Bengals players and pissing everyone off. Jones goes to shove Porter back and as he goes to shove Porter makes contact with a ref. Totally Jones fault for retaliating, but Porter should have never have been in the middle of that causing issues without getting flagged. Jones personal foul; should have been offset by Porter's should have been personal foul.

The two NON-calls for the Steeler's personal fouls led to 1 player being forced out of the game (Bernard), a turnover in the Steelers territory for the Bengals near the red zone when the score was 15-0, and an extra 15 yards for the chip shot FG to lose the game. They made sure Cincinnati got all the personal foul calls at the most critical points in the game.

Because, incorrectly, refs only focus on the defenseless part. If they deem him a "runner" they too often forget about the rest of the rule, as you pointed out.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Because, incorrectly, refs only focus on the defenseless part. If they deem him a "runner" they too often forget about the rest of the rule, as you pointed out.

I know, but typically when a guy makes a tackle, the head is not far from the shoulders, so most times helmet to helmet is incidental if both men meet standing. Shazier intentionally lowered the crown of his helmet and launched himself at Bernard though. The crown of the helmet made contact with Bernard's face and knocked him unconscious. There is no f'n grey area there, and no accidentally forgetting the rest of the rule when a guy is laying face down unconscious on the field with replay being forced to be seen 10 times due to the fumble. There was a ton of time for the refs to get that shit show accurate, and not one damn ref said a damn thing. A flag was never thrown and picked back up, NOTHING.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I know, but typically when a guy makes a tackle, the head is not far from the shoulders, so most times helmet to helmet is incidental if both men meet standing. Shazier intentionally lowered the crown of his helmet and launched himself at Bernard though. The crown of the helmet made contact with Bernard's face and knocked him unconscious. There is no f'n grey area there, and no accidentally forgetting the rest of the rule when a guy is laying face down unconscious on the field with replay being forced to be seen 10 times due to the fumble. There was a ton of time for the refs to get that shit show accurate, and not one damn ref said a damn thing. A flag was never thrown and picked back up, NOTHING.

Oh, I know. I agree.

I just think once they determined that he was not longer "defenseless" they forget to apply the other portion of the rule. Not just in this instance, but across the board.

The NFL needs FULL TIME refs. There are simply too many rules, and these guys are not even fully invested as NFL refs.

 

[BurrowDeep2Chase]

 

[cdumler7]

So where is the grey area in Shazier launching himself, with the crown of the helmet, and hitting Benard directly in the face, and Bernard never had a chance to duck or move into any fetal position causing the incidental contact with the helmet? It was not incidental. Shazier launched himself, led with the crown of his helmet directly into the face of Bernard. The rule states that ANY PLAYER (not just a defenseless player) who gets hit by another player who led with the crown of their helmet, it is a personal foul. This also goes for RB's lowering their head into tacklers. If one player lowers his head, tackles with the crown of his helmet and especially if said crown makes direct contact with another players helmet, it is an immediate foul.

But somehow, Shazier was not penalized, and directly following the play, celebrating and making menacing gestures after knocking Bernard unconscious, he was not penalized for that shit show either.

Prior to that point, Cincinnati had 1 personal foul on Williams making contact on a defenseless WR. No head to head, play was bang bang, no one led with helmet, Williams just got there a tick too early so the defender was labeled defenseless. Okay, penalized. Proper call.

From there, you have a Steeler coach trying to yank the hair out of one of our players on the sidelines. Joey Porter talking shit on the sidelines to our players as they come by or make tackles on that side of the field. Then you have the Shazier incident that made everyone explode.

The only other penalties on Cincinnati were t he ones that ended the game. Burfict's hit that Steeler's players and former Steeler players are claiming was not dirty, then Jones getting flagged because Jey Porter is out on the middle of the field talking shit to Bengals players and pissing everyone off. Jones goes to shove Porter back and as he goes to shove Porter makes contact with a ref. Totally Jones fault for retaliating, but Porter should have never have been in the middle of that causing issues without getting flagged. Jones personal foul; should have been offset by Porter's should have been personal foul.

The two NON-calls for the Steeler's personal fouls led to 1 player being forced out of the game (Bernard), a turnover in the Steelers territory for the Bengals near the red zone when the score was 15-0, and an extra 15 yards for the chip shot FG to lose the game. They made sure Cincinnati got all the personal foul calls at the most critical points in the game.

Oh believe me I think that should have been a penalty. They missed that one in my opinion and honestly I am one that thinks the Pittsburgh Steelers coaches should have been penalizes. I really think Joey Porter should be suspended for his actions even if he had permission to be on the field because a coach even if they don't start it to have that level of maturity to be right in the middle of things getting players all fired up is just wrong. Believe me they are talking on local Bronco radio about how the Steelers have shown to be one of the dirtier teams in the NFL for a while now. Heck we lost a player to injury because one of their OL launched himself at the head of a Bronco player after the play was over ending the season for that player yet all he got was a small fine.

You guys definitely have reason to be upset. I'm just more commenting towards I'm not sure Brown could have done anything in that situation and I don't think you can really change that rule expecting a WR to go against the very nature of what our bodies tell us to do in such a situation. Now we can debate whether it should be a penalty or not as I do think it should be but again I played WR so I error on the side of protecting the WR. I am not completely objective in the discussion and have no problem admitting that.

 

[alf8478]

So how would you change the rule then? Because the rule was put in to help try to protect from those kind of hits and honestly we have seen those type of hits less since the rule was created. Now obviously it still happens as like what we just saw with Burfict but that to me is still more of a these guys are like human missiles and sometimes it is impossible to control the body from just hitting like it does. I don't think Burfict or Brown could have done a ton in the situation. Brown's reaction to me looks like a guy that his body is making that instant reaction to somewhat curl up which pushes his head down into the shoulder of Burfict and Burfict looks like a guy that just somewhat misjudged where the receiver was going to be and his should just happened to be right where Brown's head ended up. Again though how do you change that rule? I mean if you eliminate the rule that is in place then most likely those type of hits happen more often.

Defensive players are going to have to aim for the waist. Right now they are aiming for the chest, and the WR ducks to protect himself resulting in a head shot.

I guess its either that or the Defensive player can't/won't be allowed to lower himself at all, instead he would have to stand straight up and collide with the offensive player, basically like running into a wal

 

[alf8478]

The hit was flag worthy based on the rule. I dont think it was dirty.

Like I've said before, Burfict is more reckless than dirty.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Defensive players are going to have to aim for the waist. Right now they are aiming for the chest, and the WR ducks to protect himself resulting in a head shot.

I guess its either that or the Defensive player can't/won't be allowed to lower himself at all, instead he would have to stand straight up and collide with the offensive player, basically like running into a wal

Right, and at what point does a protection rule end up, potentially, causing more harm than good?

The WR HAS to take some kind of proactive measure to protect themselves. It simply can't be on just the defender to protect the WR.

 

[Cincyfan78]

The hit was flag worthy based on the rule. I dont think it was dirty.

Like I've said before, Burfict is more reckless than dirty.

Yup.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Defensive players are going to have to aim for the waist. Right now they are aiming for the chest, and the WR ducks to protect himself resulting in a head shot.

I guess its either that or the Defensive player can't/won't be allowed to lower himself at all, instead he would have to stand straight up and collide with the offensive player, basically like running into a wal

Problem with aiming for the waist...now you have the defensive player lowering his upper body to make contact with an offensive player with his shoulder pad, but the head is attached straight on to the shoulders through the neck. How much incidental crown tackling are you going to do with the defensive player when they have to bend over that low to make a tackle forcing their line of sight to go south, and not seeing any adjustments by the offensive player?

If you stop these hits over the middle, then you just wind up having every offense run triple crossing routes because no defensive players wants to make contact with a WR over the middle of the field.

They can't protect them, it is too fast, too punishing, too much shit happens. Best way to protect the players, get rid of the plastic helmets and give them leather helmets again. That will force guys to not play so fast or hard. You lose a lot of excitement in the game, but you will have guys doing things the right way beyond that because it could mean death if they keep playing the same way.

 

[alf8478]

Or no helmets

 

[Cincyfan78]

Problem with aiming for the waist...now you have the defensive player lowering his upper body to make contact with an offensive player with his shoulder pad, but the head is attached straight on to the shoulders through the neck. How much incidental crown tackling are you going to do with the defensive player when they have to bend over that low to make a tackle forcing their line of sight to go south, and not seeing any adjustments by the offensive player?

If you stop these hits over the middle, then you just wind up having every offense run triple crossing routes because no defensive players wants to make contact with a WR over the middle of the field.

They can't protect them, it is too fast, too punishing, too much shit happens. Best way to protect the players, get rid of the plastic helmets and give them leather helmets again. That will force guys to not play so fast or hard. You lose a lot of excitement in the game, but you will have guys doing things the right way beyond that because it could mean death if they keep playing the same way.

That first part speaks directly to what I was saying before. How much protection can you afford one position/player before you end up taking it away from another player/position?

I understand that lowering the head by the WR is a reaction, but it's no different than any other reaction that athletes work to prevent in every sport around the world. The defender has to be given a clean target to hit/tackle without fear of being penalized to the point where they are now putting themselves at greater risk for injury because of the protection afforded to the WR.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I also think professional boxers should be forced to wear plastic helmets with a face mask to prevent injury. I mean, how are the boxers supposed to protect themselves from so much damage? They joined boxing to make millions but lord knows they didn't want to get hurt doing it. Millions of dollars shouldn't warrant such a cost on the players part for fame and fortune.

 

[DanBengalfan]

ultimate frisbee is going to be huge in 20 years. get your kids started now.

 

[Wamu]

So has that piece of shit Adam 'pacrat' Jones offered up a public apology for claiming Brown was faking that concussion? What a classless comment from a classless clown.