AJ Burnett - I'm intrigued by this.

[Etrius24]

Also... Burnett is not signed to a really long contract...So the Pirates commitment to him would be relatively short term... So Even if they have to pay 16-18 million of his remaining contract it is still a good value.. The Pirates have tried to land pitchers via free agency that would not come here...And these pitchers made a lot of money 8-12 million per... So to not give up any significant prospect and to only pay Burnett say 8 million a year... I think that is a major win for the Bucs.

Now if there was only some way to bring one more bat to this team...They could shock a few people...

 

[magnumo]

Would Burnett be a potential upgrade to the Pirates' almost universally maligned starting rotation?

Yes (as so many pundits and posters have pointed out). Most agree that the rotation would be upgraded if Burnett replaces Correia. Unfortunately, several pundits have reported that the acquisition of Burnett would move Karstens to the BP. If the Pirates do that, an upgrade seems much more unlikely.

"Burnett could be something special?"

No. Not likely.

As has been pointed out by so many, Burnett brings some positives and some negatives. Here's a link to another current article (from Biertempfel's blog in the Trib) which talks about both sides.

A scouting report on Burnett - Bucco Blog

Seems to me that the best we can hope for is that NH doesn't pay too much (in either salary or prospects) for Burnett, AND that Burnett IS able to improve over his performance of 2010 and 2011 despite his advancing age and decreasing stuff, AND that he becomes a positive rather than negative influence on his younger colleagues. (Seems to be a lot to hope for.)

And since Burnett is no longer comparable performance-wise to either Oswalt or Edwin Jackson, AND Jackson is much younger, it seems inappropriate to use reported Pirate offers to Jackson and Oswalt as justification for how much to pay Burnett. On this question, I'm in total agreement with NH. Burnett is not worth an annual salary similar to Oswalt's or Jackson's.

 

[Etrius24]

I would rather they had Oswalt or Jackson... But neither of those guys were going to come here....Neither were going to come here for what they would get somewhere else... Some place they would rather be.

We will have to wait and see just how Burnett pans out... We have time to talk about that and to argue about it... But he is an upgrade... and the money is there to pay him...

This is better than when they signed Burnitz or Randa or Morris... Burnett actually helps the team..

Now for the statement I said about Burnett being something special.. I mean it... If he pitches 190 innings... strikes out 175.. gives up less than a hit per inning.. I think that getting a pitcher that can do that without overpaying with a 6 year contract or giving up a lot in terms of prospects is special.... Plus I believe that being in the NL and getting out of Yankee stadium... Burnett pitching like that translates into a ERA around 4.00... maybe a tick higher...

Not an elite pitcher... but damned good.. This team desperately needs that pitcher to eat innings and to lead it... Coupled with Bedard the Rotation could really be special... and I am sticking with that statement.

Make fun of it if you want to...

 

[magnumo]

Another "interesting" post

Looks like another piece-by-piece analysis is in order:

I would rather they had Oswalt or Jackson...

Congratulations on that opinion (which matches everyone else's).

But neither of those guys were going to come here....

And you knew this before NH attempted to bring both in?

Neither were going to come here for what they would get somewhere else... Some place they would rather be.

Obvious to anyone and everyone? (Yep.)

We will have to wait and see just how Burnett pans out...

Obvious.

We have time to talk about that and to argue about it...

Obvious..... except that there is very little arguing going on (except by you).

But he is an upgrade...

That MAY be true if Burnett replaces Correia. However, it is definitely in question if he replaces Karstens. And the REAL question is "how much of an upgrade?"

and the money is there to pay him...

Not in question by anyone. However, the REAL question is, HOW MUCH money should the Pirates be willing to pay him?

This is better than when they signed Burnitz or Randa or Morris...

Classic "straw man." No one has said anything about those guys.

Burnett actually helps the team..

As you stated earlier in this post, "We will have to wait and see just how Burnett pans out..." (just a little bit of contradiction within the same post)

Now for the statement I said about Burnett being something special.. I mean it... If he pitches 190 innings... strikes out 175.. gives up less than a hit per inning.. I think that getting a pitcher that can do that without overpaying with a 6 year contract or giving up a lot in terms of prospects is special.... Plus I believe that being in the NL and getting out of Yankee stadium... Burnett pitching like that translates into a ERA around 4.00... maybe a tick higher...

- Your comment about a "6 year contract" is another "straw man" and irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.

- It remains to be seen how much the Pirates will need to give up to make this deal happen..... and that IS a relevant question.

- In my world, pitching to an "ERA around 4.00... maybe a tick higher" is definitely NOT "something special."

Not an elite pitcher... but damned good..

In my world, pitching to an "ERA around 4.00... maybe a tick higher" is definitely NOT "damned good" either.

This team desperately needs that pitcher to eat innings and to lead it... Coupled with Bedard the Rotation could really be special... and I am sticking with that statement.

- Would Burnett lead the staff? Clearly, that remains to be seen.

- It's obvious that the Pirates need pitching. However, a team which desperately needs a pitcher who had an ERA over 5.00 in 2010 and 2011 TO LEAD IT.....even if he achieves an "ERA around 4.00... maybe a tick higher" in 2012..... is a team (and a rotation) in a desperate situation indeed.

- "The rotation could really be special?" What does replacing Maholm with the fragile (but better when healthy) Bedard, and replacing Correia with Burnett (who MAY be an improvement, if he improves significantly beyond where he's been for the past couple years) actually do? Since the Pirates' rotation was rated by most as one of the weakest in MLB, it appears that the addition of Bedard and Burnett COULD improve the rotation to middle-of-the-pack, IF they both work out. However, it is highly questionable that the "rotation could really be special." Clearly, you have a much lower threshhold for calling something "special" than the rest of the world.

- It is not surprising that you would stick with that statement.

Make fun of it if you want to...

I made fun of nothing (although I could have). Instead, what I have done, in both that post and this one, is to refute your statements with facts and logic.

- Do I expect you to agree that you were wrong in any way? No..... you never do.

- Do I expect you to realize that your post is fraught with repetition, the obvious, straw men, off-the-wall hyperbole, contradiction, and other non-value-adding nonsense? No..... you never do.

Again, I will let others draw their own conclusions, and will not engage you further in this thread (unless, of course, you post some DIFFERENT wrong or wrong-headed stuff).

 

[magnumo]

It's now being reported that Cleveland is in the mix for Burnett, and that they're offering Travis Hafner as part of the deal. Hafner had a down year in 2008, but otherwise he has OPSed over .800 every year between 2003 and 2011..... clearly better performance than Garrett Jones. Hafner has a disadvantage of being about 4 years older than Jones (35 in mid-season vs. 31 for Jones), although that may not be a factor for the Yankees.

I would speculate that the Yankees might see Hafner as a potentially better lefty DH candidate than Jones..... and that could trump whatever the Bucs are offering.

Pirates still out front in A.J. Burnett sweepstakes

 

[stillmatic32]

Can you fellas just have an unspoken agreement to lay off one another? It would improve my Sports SportsHoopla Pirates Message Board experience greatly.

 

[Illinest]

It's now being reported that Cleveland is in the mix for Burnett, and that they're offering Travis Hafner as part of the deal. Hafner had a down year in 2008, but otherwise he has OPSed over .800 every year between 2003 and 2011..... clearly better performance than Garrett Jones. Hafner has a disadvantage of being about 4 years older than Jones (35 in mid-season vs. 31 for Jones), although that may not be a factor for the Yankees.

I would speculate that the Yankees might see Hafner as a potentially better lefty DH candidate than Jones..... and that could trump whatever the Bucs are offering.

Pirates still out front in A.J. Burnett sweepstakes

Ya know - we as fans tend to look at stuff like the Burnett rumors purely in terms of a baseball trade but I wonder if the Yankees are seeing more to it.
For example they're not limited by finances - rather they have a self-imposed cap because they want to limit vulnerability to the luxury tax.
Well have we considered the possibility that they might also want to target the poor teams and encourage us to increase our payroll? If the luxury tax threshold is indexed to any sort of an average payroll then you have to figure that by increasing our payroll by 10 million or so it'll allow them to spend more next year.
If on the other hand they increased a rich team's payroll then it might actually lower the threshold - if you follow my thinking.

 

[magnumo]

Can you fellas just have an unspoken agreement to lay off one another? It would improve my Sports SportsHoopla Pirates Message Board experience greatly.

I appreciate your question, stillmatic..... and I care about your experience on this board.

However, if my end of "lay off one another" consists of letting stand false statements, wrong-headed assertions, bad data, unbridled hyperbole, misleading ambiguity, self-contradiction, obvious "spin," and other non-value-adding nonsense, without any kind of response or challenge..... I can't agree to that. My view is that such stuff NEEDS to be challenged and refuted. While differences of opinion are inevitable, expected, and OK (especially when backed by understandable logic and data), my view is that readers deserve factual accuracy and credibility.

I respectfully suggest that you skip over such exchanges between Etrius and me..... or Etrius and others. To make it easier for you to skip such posts of mine, I will title them "Etrius Alert" in the future.

 

[thedddd]

Mags saw this yesterday:
[MEDIA=twitter]169523860461461504[/MEDIA]

Looks like Cleveland is out of the running with Hafner.

Per the reports today the Yankees/Pirates are at an impasse but I have a feeling the Pirates will end up with Burnett:
Burnett talks remain at impasse - Yardbarker

 

[magnumo]

Ya know - we as fans tend to look at stuff like the Burnett rumors purely in terms of a baseball trade but I wonder if the Yankees are seeing more to it.
For example they're not limited by finances - rather they have a self-imposed cap because they want to limit vulnerability to the luxury tax.
Well have we considered the possibility that they might also want to target the poor teams and encourage us to increase our payroll? If the luxury tax threshold is indexed to any sort of an average payroll then you have to figure that by increasing our payroll by 10 million or so it'll allow them to spend more next year.
If on the other hand they increased a rich team's payroll then it might actually lower the threshold - if you follow my thinking.

Thanks for that thinking. Definitely value-adding, at least for me..... hadn't thought of that angle.

Unfortunately, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are in the same ball-park, player payroll wise. Both sites I use for player payrolls (Cot's and CBS.Sports) indicate that both teams were between $40 and $50 mill last season.

Cot's Baseball Contracts (click on individual teams to compare)

MLB Salaries - CBSSports.com

Thus, your notion probably won't favor either Cleveland or Pittsburgh in a trade with the Yankees. On the other hand, maybe the Yanks would prefer to get Burnett out of the AL East (although that seems unlikely to be a factor). The offer of Hafner by the Indians has me thinking that NH will need to up the ante..... and Burnett might not be worth much of that.

 

[magnumo]

Mags saw this yesterday:
[MEDIA=twitter]169523860461461504[/MEDIA]

Looks like Cleveland is out of the running with Hafner.

Per the reports today the Yankees/Pirates are at an impasse but I have a feeling the Pirates will end up with Burnett:
Burnett talks remain at impasse - Yardbarker

Thanks much for those two links, thedddd.

Since both report that Hafner is off the table, that relieves my mind a bit. On the other hand, that un-named "4th team" (beyond the Bucs, Indians, and Angels) remains worrisome.

Wait a minute..... 10 days ago, I started out with a flat-out "no thanks" on Burnett. Then, by 5 days ago, the discussion brought me around to a position that Burnett would be OK, as long as he doesn't cost too much (in either salary or prospects). That remains my biggest worry..... that the Pirates will pay too much, due to the reported competition from other teams for Burnett's services.

 

[Darkstone42]

It seems that Neal is being plenty bullish about what he gives up, so I'm not concerned that we give up too much.

 

[sychmd]

doesnt seem like we should send any prospects with a decent ceiling for a 35 yo iffy player. we need to keep those prospects for our use or to really get a young stud by sending 3-5 good ceiling guys(like morris, alderson, zvr, cain) to a team that needs to promisingly replenish a relatively depleted system. we cant send usable players and potential good trade chips just to get back someone that will cost money and not be here in 2 years when we really have a pro roster and staff(if our cant misses are really cant misses). burnett isnt even a guarantee 15 win guy and gone in 11/2 years at the trade deadline to a contender if he is good and to the DL when he is sick of being on a losing team and has his money. this whole barajas being his good luck charm is interesting.
the other issue, since this is really just a tryout year for 2/3 of our squad and a let's take it to the next level for 8 of our guys, burnetts 200 innings are going to take away from an owens, lincoln, locke, morris, watson, wilson really showing what they got and becoming keepers or good trading chips for infileders/catchers we desperately need.

 

[Etrius24]

Mags

I gave you my opinion of Burnett and a possible trade... and you felt the need to go into a line by line dissection of the post...

You have a problem...

I was not arguing with anyone... We are talking about Burnett.

Even when other members here ask you not to do this... you refuse...

I am optimistic about Burnett coming here... I think it will work out well if it goes through....

Note this is the off season and hot stove baseball is supposed to be talking about what if... Now if you have a problem with shooting the breeze about the pirates... about talking about what if.... Why are you on here.

You can quote all the articles you want... But it still all boils down to a patchwork of best guesses....

 

[Etrius24]

And as for some of the other stuff...

How many actually thought Oswalt was coming to the Bucs? Seriously??? So if you want to make a point of trying to belittle me for saying that Oswalt was not coming here... I guess you win the Psychic phenomenon award for 2012 Mags.

The fact that almost no veteran pitcher wants to come to Pittsburgh is why they have to consider Burnett.

As for the reference to a 6 year 60 million dollar contract... It is not a straw man... It is the only other way they were going to get a veteran pitcher... Overpay and overcommit to a 30 something year old arm...With a expensive long term contract.

I was mentioning this and stating that at least the Pirates would not be stuck with an albatross contract... Burnett is short term... So even if you dislike the Dollar amount... it goes away rather quickly.... Instead of 6 years from now.

 

[magnumo]

ETRIUS ALERT

ETRIUS ALERT: Two more posts full of so much nonsense that I had to work very hard to keep my reply this "short:"

1. My piece-by-piece dissection of your post demonstrated conclusively that it added no value (which is typical).

2. You're the one with the problem: You have posted repeatedly that you don't care what others think and that you don't care about your reputation. And your posts clearly demonstrate your ongoing lack of respect for your readers. You repeatedly post a litany of non-value-adding stuff, including misleading and outright false assertions, ambiguities, self-contradictions, Captain Obvious statements, repetitions, self-justifying spin, and you ALWAYS play fast and loose with facts. Furthermore, you NEVER take responsiblity for anything wrong in your posts.

3. Here is perhaps the most "telling" statement from your last two posts: "Even when other members here ask you not to do this... you refuse... " (underlines added by me) That statement is false and misleading in more than one way:

-----Since you have been posting here, exactly ONE member (stillmatic32) has made such a request of me. Here is stillmatic's post (#66 in this thread) in its entirety: "Can you fellas just have an unspoken agreement to lay off one another? It would improve my Sports SportsHoopla Pirates Message Board experience greatly."

-----Clearly, stillmatic was talking to both YOU and me. Not surprisingly, I acknowledged and replied to stillmatic's post. You did not.

-----Several other posts (by more than one other poster) have aimed similar criticism specifically at you and your posts, but you have rejected those totally and completely. You have also missed or ignored numerous other subtle hints in posts made by yet other posters.

4. I saw much speculation written in many places (by professionals, bloggers, and discussion board denizens) about the starting pitchers which the Pirates might target, and many of those included Oswalt. Obviously, the Pirates themselves thought Oswalt might come here, since (as reported in many places) they targeted Oswalt and made repeated efforts to get in touch with him to make an offer.

5. Clearly, you don't understand the definition of "straw man."

6. I come here because I've been an avid Pirate fan for over 60 years. I come here because I wish to engage in high quality dialog about baseball and the Pirates, and I always want to learn from the shared opinions, information, facts, and logic posted by others. (I try to do my part in adding value by sharing links to info about the Bucs, along with my own thinking and the basis for my thinking.) My posts demonstrate conclusively that I enjoy "talking about what if" (as opposed to yet another false implication in your post).

7. Fortunately, except for you, this board meets my needs admirably. I can state without reservation that I have learned much from reading EVERY OTHER REGULAR POSTER on this board. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for you. You subtract a whole lot more value than you add. By the time a reader sorts through all the nonsense, bad information, misleading statements, repetition, denials, etc., which characterize your posts, there is essentially nothing left.

8. Finally, your last comment in post #74 is very illuminating about your mind set and method of operation. Here is the exact quote: "You can quote all the articles you want... But it still all boils down to a patchwork of best guesses...."

-----That statement illustrates your regard for "a patchwork of best guesses" (especially your own) over facts and logic.

-----That statement illustrates your disregard for quotes and links which describe the opinions of others and typically include the facts and logic which form the basis for those opinions. (Not surprising, since you frequently express disdain for links, quotes, and facts.)

-----The posts of others on this board consist of MUCH MORE than a patchwork of best guesses.

10. You don't care to listen, add value, or really discuss anything.

-----As Illinest stated so eloquently in another thread: "You dont discuss anything. You make proclamations and you argue."

-----In yet another thread, thecrow124 nailed it again with, "Now I remember why I stopped paying attention to what etrius said at the old boards. He never really said anything. And definitely nothing of value."

All you want to do is self-justify and blather on with impunity. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Etrius24]

MAGS ALERT

Well mags if this is what you want we can do it sure as anything.

Any good rotogeek can tell you that they all look at a bunch of numbers, they try to find a pattern and hope it helps them... But in the end it is a patchwork of guesses.... Rob Neyer told me that in an e-mail 12 years ago. Do you now want to comment on his mindset Mags? Because clearly from that quote it has told you all sorts of wonderful things and given you so much enlightment...

Fail Mags

Want to try some more?

 

[Etrius24]

Mags Alert

Well let's see... Considering the fact that since NH has been the GM... That the bucs have been completely unable to lure healthy free agent starting pitchers to sign with the bucs... Now before you go look for a list of all pitchers the bucs have inked...I will also add... no veteran starting pitchers that were in demand and where other teams were interested... Bedard had a lot of baggage and other teams were weary... This allowed the Bucs to step in and take a chance on him. I happen to think it is a very prudent calculated risk...but it is a risk nonetheless.

So you criticize me for saying that Oswalt and Jackson were not going to come here... as you did in post #76 :

"4. I saw much speculation written in many places (by professionals, bloggers, and discussion board denizens) about the starting pitchers which the Pirates might target, and many of those included Oswalt. Obviously, the Pirates themselves thought Oswalt might come here, since (as reported in many places) they targeted Oswalt and made repeated efforts to get in touch with him to make an offer."

Let's examine your logic! You said: Obviously the Pirates thought Oswalt might come here ( Pittsburgh ) Since they targeted him and made repeat efforts.

Okay

Anyone here can tell you that as young men they approached numerous young ladies with thoughts of hanky panky in their minds... And if people here are willing to admit it... I bet they struck out as I did many, many times... Just because the Pirates approached Oswalt and " targeted" ( your term from post #76 ) does not mean Oswalt at any time ever wanted to come to the Pirates.... Which is exactly like the young men in Bars all across America wanting that girl across the room... Wanting her does not make her want YOU! I can ask you to kiss my ass... This does not mean there is a snowballs chance in hell it will happen or is realistic.

Also as other people have pointed out in other threads recently...The Pirates have not had much luck getting free agent help... And that players will not come here unless they are overpaid significantly! ...What is wrong mags... will you not criticize them for stating the obvious... That the pirates have been for a while something of a joke of a team and no veteran free agent with real options is going to pick the Pirates when there is a large market team interested... They can have a chance to play in front of capacity crowds... and the chance to get to the post season ..Things that are not likely to happen in Pittsburgh.

These alerts are fun... Great idea Mags

 

[magnumo]

ETRIUS ALERT

ETRIUS ALERT:

Yet 2 more posts completely without value and not worthy of response. My previous replies to the same stuff stand.

You just keep digging your hole deeper with your nonsense..... and the more you post, the more obvious that becomes to the community.

I WILL commend you on adding "Mags Alert" at the beginning of your posts.

 

[thedddd]

Per reports the paperwork will be submitted to Selig's office today. It needs his approval due to the money involved.

It will be interesting to see who the Yankees get in the deal and who was the closest on the guesses.

Also I see no reason why Selig won't approve the deal but it is the Pirates and Yankees he can do something stupid and make it even harder for the Pirates to compete (sorry my rant).