A.J. Jenkins

[clyde_carbon]

smith is a qb drafted by the old regime. well a few regimes ago. i think both prefer ck but realize he's a work in progress.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[I_am_1z]

Oh I definitely think CK is also Harbaugh's guy, but AT THIS POINT, I think he prefers Alex.

I personally agree with Baalke.

I get you now.

 

[Bemular]

Why am I not surprised that you won't address your incorrect numbers?

If I'm looking at the wrong players, which 15 guys were you looking at and why did you select them? I provided my criteria: guys who returned at least five of BOTH punts and kickoffs. You've apparently provided nothing more than imaginary numbers.

This shit is why I accuse you of being MW. This is exactly his game. Throw out numbers, get challenged, and respond by calling the questioner (usually me or Imac) ignorant and refuse to actually address the challenge.

Tell us where your numbers come from or just admit you're wrong. And btw, incorrect information is, by definition, not valid.

Since I'm not MW and because you clearly put alot of effort into your post, I revisited my #'s and you are correct! I made a terrible mistake. Here are the new #'s for the top 15 RS in the following offensive categories:

Ttl Off Att's------------------t6th (27)
Ttl Off Yds--------------------8th (288)
Off Yds/Off Att----------------5th (10.67)
Ttl Off 1st Dns---------------t5th (15)
% of Off 1st Dns/Off Att------t5th (55.56%)
Ttl Off TD's------------------t8th (0)

My error comes courtesy of incorrectly reading the information passed along to me by MW who pulled the original numbers around Thanksgiving.

Below are the #'s for the top 23 (something). I figure this should cover just about every cherry picking scenario you can think of:

Ttl Off Att's------------------t10th (27)
Ttl Off Yds--------------------10th (288)
Off Yds/Off Att----------------7th (10.67)
Ttl Off 1st Dns---------------t7th (15)
% of Off 1st Dns/Off Att------t5th (55.56%)
Ttl Off TD's------------------t11th (0)

As you can see, even broadening the scope to include 8 additional teams and some returners that probably should not be included, you can see clearly, at least as far as these offensive categories are concerned, Ginn is ranked squarely in the top 1/2 to upper 1/3 of production.

But once again I close with this disclaimer:

"The point of sharing this information isn't to draw the conclusion that Ginn is better than Williams or even that he is better than he is. But to at least provide some contrast and comparison to others in the league who were functioning in a similar role."

 

[TobyTyler]

my post said 'TEND to have' cause i know there are exceptions.

your post says ".......that at all" which says better teams don't have better stats period.

if we went to check all individual categories in the 2011 NFL stats, would you expect to see more players from play-off teams, or more from non-playoff teams? players on good teams tend to get better stats because they feed off good play from their 'mates.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I said I don't agree at all that players on better teams tend to have better stats. I often find it just the opposite especially in the passing and receiving categories. Steve DeBerg with the 2 and 14 49ers had some very gaudy numbers as did the receivers because they were throwing all the time since the were always behind.

 

[deep9er]

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I said I don't agree at all that players on better teams tend to have better stats. I often find it just the opposite especially in the passing and receiving categories. Steve DeBerg with the 2 and 14 49ers had some very gaudy numbers as did the receivers because they were throwing all the time since the were always behind.

i misunderstood but you repeat the same thing, whaaa?

umm..............not surprising you went directly to an exception, or IMO, an exception. but wouldn't have guessed your example would be DeBerg??!! you then narrowed it down to passing and receiving??!!

thats why i said 'tend' to, cause i know you can find exceptions. but note you were more definitive in saying the top stat guys aren't from good teams AT ALL.

anyways, better teams tend to have players with better stats - offense AND defense. we can look at every season ending individual catefory and i'm confident most of the top guys were from good teams. not all, but most.

 

[TobyTyler]

i misunderstood but you repeat the same thing, whaaa?

umm..............not surprising you went directly to an exception, or IMO, an exception. but wouldn't have guessed your example would be DeBerg??!! you then narrowed it down to passing and receiving??!!

thats why i said 'tend' to, cause i know you can find exceptions. but note you were more definitive in saying the top stat guys aren't from good teams AT ALL.

anyways, better teams tend to have players with better stats - offense AND defense. we can look at every season ending individual catefory and i'm confident most of the top guys were from good teams. not all, but most.

And you would still be wrong.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Since I'm not MW and because you clearly put alot of effort into your post, I revisited my #'s and you are correct! I made a terrible mistake. Here are the new #'s for the top 15 RS in the following offensive categories:

Ttl Off Att's------------------t6th (27)
Ttl Off Yds--------------------8th (288)
Off Yds/Off Att----------------5th (10.67)
Ttl Off 1st Dns---------------t5th (15)
% of Off 1st Dns/Off Att------t5th (55.56%)
Ttl Off TD's------------------t8th (0)

My error comes courtesy of incorrectly reading the information passed along to me by MW who pulled the original numbers around Thanksgiving.

Below are the #'s for the top 23 (something). I figure this should cover just about every cherry picking scenario you can think of:

Ttl Off Att's------------------t10th (27)
Ttl Off Yds--------------------10th (288)
Off Yds/Off Att----------------7th (10.67)
Ttl Off 1st Dns---------------t7th (15)
% of Off 1st Dns/Off Att------t5th (55.56%)
Ttl Off TD's------------------t11th (0)

As you can see, even broadening the scope to include 8 additional teams and some returners that probably should not be included, you can see clearly, at least as far as these offensive categories are concerned, Ginn is ranked squarely in the top 1/2 to upper 1/3 of production.

But once again I close with this disclaimer:

"The point of sharing this information isn't to draw the conclusion that Ginn is better than Williams or even that he is better than he is. But to at least provide some contrast and comparison to others in the league who were functioning in a similar role."

Wow. Acknowledging you were wrong. Kudos. Maybe you aren't MW after all.

 

[deep9er]

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I said I don't agree at all that players on better teams tend to have better stats. I often find it just the opposite especially in the passing and receiving categories. Steve DeBerg with the 2 and 14 49ers had some very gaudy numbers as did the receivers because they were throwing all the time since the were always behind.

ok, lets back up and go back to your disagreement post......from above, you're saying good teams don't have players with good stats, but its the poor teams that do.

here's the top 5 from the 2011 season except i'll list their teams:
1. passing yards: NO, NE, Det, NYG, and GB
2. rush yards: Jac, Bal, Atl, Phi;, Hou
3. Rec. Yards: Det, NE, NYG, Ari, Car
4. TD's: Phil, NE, Det, GB, Bal
so good teams have good stats and by extension, players on these teams have good stats. how many of these teams are play-off teams?

i also went to defense and found its not so clear for the top 5's, it DOES start to show my 'tendency' when you go top 10's. so it still indicates you're wrong. don't see why it would be much different going back more seasons?

now that i looked, it makes sense POOR teams would lead in one defensive category - number of tackles. but good teams do lead in other defensive categories.

 

[Bemular]

Wow. Acknowledging you were wrong. Kudos. Maybe you aren't MW after all.

No kudos necessary my brother; I'm a smart guy - the truth doesn't scare me.

The error was cosmetic and raised his un-weighted average from 5.5 to 6.2, still within the upper 1/2 of the top 15. More impressive however is his un-weighted average rank of 8.3 in the top 23. Thus, my original point remains undiminished.

 

[deep9er]

Wow. Acknowledging you were wrong. Kudos. Maybe you aren't MW after all.

kudo's is right, some will NEVER admit they're wrong.

change the subject, go to curse mode, whatever, but not admit even part of what they said is wrong. but then again, most long discussion are a result of not being on the same page.

 

[Bemular]

As for Ginn's hands, as said, I can't say for certain what is going on. Maybe they're just too small. Maybe he simply lacks concentration. For whatever reason, his hands are below average.

I don't know that I agree with this, but what or whom is your benchmark for "average hands" and upon what evidence are you basing this claim?


I agree Crabtree has struggled in the low zone. But those balls are often harder to catch. It is more crowded, and you are more likely to get hit. You have to be more aware of the defenders.

Yes, low-zone passes are among the more difficult to catch, but they are actually less crowded, not more crowded and the receiver rarely is in jeopardy of a big hit.

There are rarely any defenders to be aware of or worried about. The receiver has really only the pass, his body and the ground to contend with. It is because of these facts that the low-zone is one of the safest to throw a pass.


Smith often throws high on short slants, the ball that Crabtree has struggled with the most. I'm not excusing Crabtree. Clearly he needs to work in this area, and on his rapport with Smith. But to me, his struggles in that area speak to concentration more than Ginn's.

Couple thoughts on this. First, I'm not sure high throws to Crabtree isn't partly by design - above the core is best for Mike. Second, some of these high throws could be due to line-of-site issues, it's tough to say without reviewing the reel.

But this I do know, in 2009 Crabtree dropped more slants than any other route. Last season Crabtree caught 8 of 9 slants with one drop. (vs. StL1) Two drops if you include the one vs. N.O. The majority of Crabtree's drops came on the short stuff (Digs, Curls, Crosses, etc.) The high passes from Smith to Crabtree came outside the #'s with a couple seams tossed in as well.

The biggest problem I see now with Crabtree on slants is getting him YAC. As previously mentioned, Crabtree caught 8 of 9 slants but his YAC/Rec was a paltry 3.9.

Crabtree: (8 of 9 for 83yds; 31 YAC - 3.9 YAC/Rec)

By comparison here are Morgan's & Edwards #'s

Morgan: (3 of 3 for 57yds; 38 YAC - 12.7 YAC/Rec + 1TD)
Edwards: (4 of 9 for 58yds; 30 YAC - 7.5 YAC/Rec)

Essentially anything going toward the middle is short YAC stuff for Crabtree.

 

[Bemular]

kudo's is right, some will NEVER admit they're wrong.

change the subject, go to curse mode, whatever, but not admit even part of what they said is wrong. but then again, most long discussion are a result of not being on the same page.

That is kind of a sad commentary about the integrity of some posters when simple honesty is celebrated - it should be expected.

The error had zero impact on the point of Ginn's offensive production as a RS and thus I suppose I could have just let it stand but that would have been lying to you and everyone else and I do have a conscious. How can we expect honesty from others if we withold it ourselves? Hopefully when the opportunity arises, and it will, that level of integrity will be reciprocated.

 

[deep9er]

That is kind of a sad commentary about the integrity of some posters when simple honesty is celebrated - it should be expected.

The error had zero impact on the point of Ginn's offensive production as a RS and thus I suppose I could have just let it stand but that would have been lying to you and everyone else and I do have a conscious. How can we expect honesty from others if we withold it ourselves? Hopefully when the opportunity arises, and it will, that level of integrity will be reciprocated.

yes it is sad. didn't mean to exaggerate it, meant it for 'some' and not the majority here.

but again, some of these differing opinions are due to different pages. so both could be basically right, but not talking the same point.

 

[Bemular]

yes it is sad. didn't mean to exaggerate it, meant it for 'some' and not the majority here.

but again, some of these differing opinions are due to different pages. so both could be basically right, but not talking the same point.

You didn't exaggerate at all - I took 'some' to mean 'just a few' and I think most on here know who they are. Overall, I find the vast majority of posters here are both honest and intelligent.

 

[TobyTyler]

ok, lets back up and go back to your disagreement post......from above, you're saying good teams don't have players with good stats, but its the poor teams that do.

here's the top 5 from the 2011 season except i'll list their teams:
1. passing yards: NO, NE, Det, NYG, and GB
2. rush yards: Jac, Bal, Atl, Phi;, Hou
3. Rec. Yards: Det, NE, NYG, Ari, Car
4. TD's: Phil, NE, Det, GB, Bal
so good teams have good stats and by extension, players on these teams have good stats. how many of these teams are play-off teams?

i also went to defense and found its not so clear for the top 5's, it DOES start to show my 'tendency' when you go top 10's. so it still indicates you're wrong. don't see why it would be much different going back more seasons?

now that i looked, it makes sense POOR teams would lead in one defensive category - number of tackles. but good teams do lead in other defensive categories.

From the stats you posted above, it appears your argument has merit.

 

[deep9er]

From the stats you posted above, it appears your argument has merit.

haaaa, ok thats a good one.

 

[TobyTyler]

haaaa, ok thats a good one.

I don't get it.

 

[deep9er]

I don't get it.

thats ok, it didn't have a negative intent anyway.

mahalo for the exchange and lets move on.

 

[TobyTyler]

thats ok, it didn't have a negative intent anyway.

mahalo for the exchange and lets move on.

He mea iki. BTW, Owusu will have a better seaon than Jenkins. He's a much more polished player.

 

[deep9er]

He mea iki. BTW, Owusu will have a better seaon than Jenkins. He's a much more polished player.

this season?