A good question

[moxie]

I have a much more enjoyable story to tell my Dodger "friends".

1988 the Dodgers won their last WS. Since then : NO NL champions, NO WS rings.

Since 1988 the GIANTS have won two NL championships (without winning the WS) and two WS rings.

Read 'em and weep, bitch.

Agreed! And this is right around the time those little asshats start screaming, "Stop living in the past!" And then I start doing a dance, singing "REIGNING champs, mofo! REIGN-ING CHAMPS!!"

I really hate the Dodgers.

 

[calsnowskier]

Agreed! And this is right around the time those little asshats start screaming, "Stop living in the past!" And then I start doing a dance, singing "REIGNING champs, mofo! REIGN-ING CHAMPS!!"

I really hate the Dodgers.

This one irritates the hell out me. Trolls come in here (or post in a specific trash talking thread on the MLB main page) talking about us doing bad this season, and when the REAIGNING CHAMP card is played, they laugh at us living in the past.

This is why I don't really like trash talking. All logic is tossed out the window and it turns into whomever has the loudest voice.

Not sure where the enjoyment is in that...

 

[msgkings322]

Lets assume they were.

Sir Bam Bam was telling them to do "A" at the beginning of the year. The team was doing great.

Then all hell broke loose.

A few different things may have happened...

a) He told the players to continue doing "A", they did and the team continued to suck.

b) He told them to do "B", they did, but the team continued to suck.

c) He told them to do "A", but they ignored him and did "B", and the team sucked.

d) He told them to do "B", but they either continued doing "A", or did "C" instead, and the team continued to suck.

IMHO, the only acceptable option where no one deserves to head-roll is option b. He tried something but it didn't work. That's alright, it is life.

If he did not try to change anything, or if the players ignored him, he has gots ta go...

Oh he's gotta go, but I'm just saying don't think the new guy will make much difference.
If the hitting coach mattered that much then you'd see the 'good' ones take less talented hitters and make them more productive. And I don't think there's any evidence they do that.

Pitching coaches, on the other hand, do seem to have noticeable effects, and that's why the good ones tend to stay in their jobs a long time. To me the main effect is injury avoidance, the good ones know how to minimize that.

 

[msgkings322]

How about we trade Cain and Bum to Atlanta for a few players to be named later?

After the season, they send them both back to us. That will keep the rings out of LaLa land...

I'm all for it, but not sure Cain would be much help this year...

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh he's gotta go, but I'm just saying don't think the new guy will make much difference.
If the hitting coach mattered that much then you'd see the 'good' ones take less talented hitters and make them more productive. And I don't think there's any evidence they do that.

Pitching coaches, on the other hand, do seem to have noticeable effects, and that's why the good ones tend to stay in their jobs a long time. To me the main effect is injury avoidance, the good ones know how to minimize that.

I also agree that the move would be 99.4% symbolic.

We are only discussing the remaining 0.6% here.

 

[BigDDude]

Not so much a question as it is a possible issue, one that then leads to a question.


He's one of the best catchers in baseball, but could Buster Posey eventually move 90 feet down the third base line to man the hot corner for the San Francisco Giants? Manager Bruce Bochy told Andrew Baggarly of CSN Bay Area on Wednesday that he could see the 2012 National League MVP making a change at some point in the future.
From CSN Bay Area:

“I think he’d be a really good third baseman,” Bochy said. “We like him where he’s at now. And this is something (that would happen) if he took the time to learn it in the offseason and spring training. But he’s an athlete and he has the hands and the arm.”
​

It's not hard to see why the Giants might consider such a move. Posey is still only 26 years old, but San Francisco wants to get as many years out of his bat as possible. Relieving Posey from his catcher duties would cut down on the wear and tear of his body, as well as remove him from plays like the home plate collision with Scott Cousins in 2011 that resulted in a broken leg. What's more, a move to third would still give the Giants more positional value than a more conventional transition to first base for Posey.

Looking at Posey's frame and athleticism, it's not hard to imagine him ranging to his left for a ground ball. But such a move wouldn't happen this season and it probably wouldn't happen in 2014, either. Pablo Sandoval has third base locked down for San Francisco, but he could command big dollars in free agency after next season and moving Posey would excuse the Giants from having to write that check.
As Baggarly also points out, Sandoval could move to first and San Francisco would then have a trading chip in Brandon Belt. (Of course, a move toward the adoption of the DH in the National League could keep everyone in their roles, but it's hard to see MLB standardizing play between the two leagues in the next two seasons.)

Not many catchers have made the switch to third base in their careers. Johnny Bench is the most famous example as he dabbled a bit at third base throughout his career and even played 107 games there for 1982 Cincinnati Reds. The big difference between Bench's situation and Posey's possible move, of course, is that the Hall of Famer was well into his 30s when he logged all those games, not in his mid-20s like the Giants catcher.

Other famous names who played at least 100 games at both catcher and third (full list here) include Jimmie Foxx, Todd Zeile, Joe Torre, Phil Nevin, B.J. Surhoff and Brandon Inge.

 

[msgkings322]

Not so much a question as it is a possible issue, one that then leads to a question.


He's one of the best catchers in baseball, but could Buster Posey eventually move 90 feet down the third base line to man the hot corner for the San Francisco Giants? Manager Bruce Bochy told Andrew Baggarly of CSN Bay Area on Wednesday that he could see the 2012 National League MVP making a change at some point in the future.
From CSN Bay Area:

“I think he’d be a really good third baseman,” Bochy said. “We like him where he’s at now. And this is something (that would happen) if he took the time to learn it in the offseason and spring training. But he’s an athlete and he has the hands and the arm.”
​

It's not hard to see why the Giants might consider such a move. Posey is still only 26 years old, but San Francisco wants to get as many years out of his bat as possible. Relieving Posey from his catcher duties would cut down on the wear and tear of his body, as well as remove him from plays like the home plate collision with Scott Cousins in 2011 that resulted in a broken leg. What's more, a move to third would still give the Giants more positional value than a more conventional transition to first base for Posey.

Looking at Posey's frame and athleticism, it's not hard to imagine him ranging to his left for a ground ball. But such a move wouldn't happen this season and it probably wouldn't happen in 2014, either. Pablo Sandoval has third base locked down for San Francisco, but he could command big dollars in free agency after next season and moving Posey would excuse the Giants from having to write that check.
As Baggarly also points out, Sandoval could move to first and San Francisco would then have a trading chip in Brandon Belt. (Of course, a move toward the adoption of the DH in the National League could keep everyone in their roles, but it's hard to see MLB standardizing play between the two leagues in the next two seasons.)

Not many catchers have made the switch to third base in their careers. Johnny Bench is the most famous example as he dabbled a bit at third base throughout his career and even played 107 games there for 1982 Cincinnati Reds. The big difference between Bench's situation and Posey's possible move, of course, is that the Hall of Famer was well into his 30s when he logged all those games, not in his mid-20s like the Giants catcher.

Other famous names who played at least 100 games at both catcher and third (full list here) include Jimmie Foxx, Todd Zeile, Joe Torre, Phil Nevin, B.J. Surhoff and Brandon Inge.

Another catcher who moved to 3b: Pablo Sandoval

We've broght this up around here, with Belt's emergence the 3B move seems more likely than the 1B one for Posey. And for sure I could see us letting Panda walk after next year...he'll either continue to struggle with his weight and production like this year, or he'll come back so strong we won't want to pay him enough to keep him from DHing in the AL. Which is a shame, I love that guy.

 

[Stokes1931]

I also agree that the move would be 99.4% symbolic.

We are only discussing the remaining 0.6% here.

I looked up a few weeks ago the Giants' batting averages for the four years SBB has been hitting coach. (And yes, I realize that Noggin has his own share of whatever blame there is with his refusal to play small ball, etc.)

I don't have the stats now, and am too lazy to look them up again, but as I recall in the last four years, the Giants have been league average once in batting average, and significantly below average the other three years.

Blame it all on the hitting coach? Could be the Giants have a distinct dearth of talent in the hitting department. Could be the Giants have a distinctly bad approach to developing hitters. Could be the ebb and flow of baseball. Injuries certainly play their part, but EVERY team deals with injuries. Look at how many injuries the Dogs have this year, and they are not hitting .221 with RISP!

It appears though that this is a trend, and the epic sukkitude of the last 84 games has only magnified our hitting problems.

Not sure what the fix is, and it might not be a quick fix. But when the Giants are averaging 3.8 runs per game for the season, and 3.1 since the ASB, something has to change.

I am spitballing league averages from the 15th team.

2013- Giants are 27th in runs scored (3.79)--(League average = 4.07) (10th in average)
2012- Giants are 12th in runs scored (4.43)--(League average = 4.40) (5th in average)
2011- Giants are 29th in runs scored (3.52)--(League average = 4.36) (28th in average)
2010- Giants are 17th in runs scored (4.31)--(League average = 4.44) (15th in average)

That's an abysmal record. (Even with two WS rings, it still looks horrible to be ranked in the bottom 5 twice, and barely league average twice. And it does not appear to be improving.)

With guys getting on base, (our averages are higher than our runs scored averages), which seems to imply that we are getting guys on base, and not driving them in.

 

[msgkings322]

I looked up a few weeks ago the Giants' batting averages for the four years SBB has been hitting coach. (And yes, I realize that Noggin has his own share of whatever blame there is with his refusal to play small ball, etc.)

I don't have the stats now, and am too lazy to look them up again, but as I recall in the last four years, the Giants have been league average once in batting average, and significantly below average the other three years.

Blame it all on the hitting coach? Could be the Giants have a distinct dearth of talent in the hitting department. Could be the Giants have a distinctly bad approach to developing hitters. Could be the ebb and flow of baseball. Injuries certainly play their part, but EVERY team deals with injuries. Look at how many injuries the Dogs have this year, and they are not hitting .221 with RISP!

It appears though that this is a trend, and the epic sukkitude of the last 84 games has only magnified our hitting problems.

Not sure what the fix is, and it might not be a quick fix. But when the Giants are averaging 3.8 runs per game for the season, and 3.1 since the ASB, something has to change.

I am spitballing league averages from the 15th team.

2013- Giants are 27th in runs scored (3.79)--(League average = 4.07)
2012- Giants are 12th in runs scored (4.43)--(League average = 4.40)
2011- Giants are 29th in runs scored (3.52)--(League average = 4.36)
2010- Giants are 17th in runs scored (4.31)--(League average = 4.44)

That's an abysmal record. (Even with two WS rings, it still looks horrible to be ranked in the bottom 5 twice, and barely league average twice. And it does not appear to be improving.)

Ummmm...park effects?

And for the 2 WS years they were hitting fine....it's not even close to 'abysmal' in that park. The Giants will never be a top 5 hitting team with the same ballpark.
They stayed relatively healthy in 2010 and 2012, BamBam was there, and they won rings
Lots of injuries in 2013 and 2011, and they can't hit.

Look, I've already posted go ahead, fire BamBam, but if history had shown that a new hitting coach really affected players' stats that much the Giants woulda done it already.
And they were hitting fine for a good while as you noted.

 

[BigDDude]

Another catcher who moved to 3b: Pablo Sandoval

We've broght this up around here, with Belt's emergence the 3B move seems more likely than the 1B one for Posey. And for sure I could see us letting Panda walk after next year...he'll either continue to struggle with his weight and production like this year, or he'll come back so strong we won't want to pay him enough to keep him from DHing in the AL. Which is a shame, I love that guy.

Now that he has his chef brother with him all the time ( or so I hear ), maybe the weight issue is under control? However, I still think his future is being a D.H in the A.L so,........?

 

[calsnowskier]

Now that he has his chef brother with him all the time ( or so I hear ), maybe the weight issue is under control? However, I still think his future is being a D.H in the A.L so,........?

Which is really too bad. He has very good reaction time, his range is not bad and he has a rocket for an arm. His deficiencies in the field are his bone-headed plays and his WILD arm.

There are times that he ends up tripping over himself (or someone else) trying to get to the bag, or completely misses the bag because he forgets where he is on the field.

Like most Giants fans, I dread any ground ball to 3B. Not because I fear Panda will not get to it, but because I fear he WILL get to it. Just about every time he fields and throws to 1B, the ball is wild by at least 4 feet. Belt is beanpole, so he is able to make most of the plays, but not all of them. His throws are real adventures.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Ummmm...park effects?

And for the 2 WS years they were hitting fine....it's not even close to 'abysmal' in that park. The Giants will never be a top 5 hitting team with the same ballpark.

It depends on what "top 5 hitting" means. If you're looking at AVG, there's no reason not to have a top-5 team. What the park hurts are HR numbers from LHBs. If the Giants hitters would play to the strengths of the park, they'd be doing a lot better. Since 2000, I think the *only* guys who have routinely done so are Pagan, and to a lesser extent Scutaro. Scutaro is just a great situational hitter, and he uses the whole field. I won't say that Pagan never tries to hit a HR at AT&T, but he routinely hits into the RCF gap and the RF gap down the line, and uses triples alley perfectly. He is NOT always trying to pull the ball for a HR.

I'd *love* to have 4 guys with an AVG around .300, and OBP around .350, who hit 40+ doubles and at least 6 triples, even if they only have 8 HRs each.

 

[Stokes1931]

Ummmm...park effects?

And for the 2 WS years they were hitting fine....it's not even close to 'abysmal' in that park. The Giants will never be a top 5 hitting team with the same ballpark.
They stayed relatively healthy in 2010 and 2012, BamBam was there, and they won rings
Lots of injuries in 2013 and 2011, and they can't hit.

Look, I've already posted go ahead, fire BamBam, but if history had shown that a new hitting coach really affected players' stats that much the Giants woulda done it already.
And they were hitting fine for a good while as you noted.

Well, they do play 81 games a year away from the Phone Booth.

I would be ecstatic if the Giants finished 27th in scoring every year and went to the playoffs. But it ain't going to happen. Unless we find three more Kershaw/Bum clones.

I'd be very happy if the Giants' hitting was middle of the pack, as it was in 2010 and 2012, both WS years. That they have been significantly under average in 2011 and 2013 (yes, granted there were/are injuries), is trending the wrong way. And 2012 was fluky in that we had Milkman for 2/3 of the season.

With our pitching, if the Giants finish 10th to 20th in scoring, we'll be good. I don't know how much this falls on Bam Bam.

 

[SFAnthem]

Just beating this drum again, up to the Toronto series, the Giants were hitting .300 with RISP (110/366) with 21 homers, and were scoring 4.76 runs per game.

Since then, the Giants have been hitting .221 with RISP, averaging 3.31 runs per game.

Up to the Toronto series, the pitching was giving up 4.57 runs per game. Since then, they have averaged 4.39 runs per game.

The pitching has not been up to Giants' standards, but the hitting, especially the situational hitting, has been loathesome.

Melky's revenge? Dun dun dun!

 

[calsnowskier]

Which is really too bad. He has very good reaction time, his range is not bad and he has a rocket for an arm. His deficiencies in the field are his bone-headed plays and his WILD arm.

There are times that he ends up tripping over himself (or someone else) trying to get to the bag, or completely misses the bag because he forgets where he is on the field.

Like most Giants fans, I dread any ground ball to 3B. Not because I fear Panda will not get to it, but because I fear he WILL get to it. Just about every time he fields and throws to 1B, the ball is wild by at least 4 feet. Belt is beanpole, so he is able to make most of the plays, but not all of them. His throws are real adventures.

Just confirming that this was written BEFORE tonight's game...

 

[SFAnthem]

Even though the stats say the Giants have been average or so the past few years. Offensive woes have always been associated with the past few Giants teams.

I would point to historically elite pitching not being so as the main culprit.

 

[SFAnthem]

Better use that a lot here soon, might be out of date come October. Dodgers look legit, and they have the pitching 'horses' to do damage in short playoff series (Kershaw, Greinke, Ryu). Something Pittsburgh and Atlanta, for example, don't really have. They have pitching strength and depth but for 162 games not necessarily for 5 or 7. As we all know as Giants fans, in the playoffs the pitching rules.

I'll believe it when I see it.

How many number 1 seeds have won the recent World Series?

 

[msgkings322]

Well, they do play 81 games a year away from the Phone Booth.

I would be ecstatic if the Giants finished 27th in scoring every year and went to the playoffs. But it ain't going to happen. Unless we find three more Kershaw/Bum clones.

I'd be very happy if the Giants' hitting was middle of the pack, as it was in 2010 and 2012, both WS years. That they have been significantly under average in 2011 and 2013 (yes, granted there were/are injuries), is trending the wrong way. And 2012 was fluky in that we had Milkman for 2/3 of the season.

With our pitching, if the Giants finish 10th to 20th in scoring, we'll be good. I don't know how much this falls on Bam Bam.

I don't see a trend, I see alternating years of terrible and good enough offense.
It's the pitching that I'm actually worried about...Cain Bum Timmy Gaudin Vogey could be good, and it could also be the shitshow we had this year. We have to accept that we might have another year just like this one next year.

I'm guessing, aside from an impossible major change in personnel for next year, that our over under for wins in 2014 will be set around 79-80

 

[msgkings322]

I'll believe it when I see it.

How many number 1 seeds have won the recent World Series?

Depends on what you mean by 'recent'...short sample size anyway

And who said the Dodgers will be the #1 seed?

I'm not at all happy about it, but just on the metric of who has the best starting pitching for the playoffs, in the NL it's gotta be the Dodgers. It's still a luckfest so their chance of winning the NL pennant this year is probably 25-30% tops. But that's still higher than the odds on the other 4 contenders.

 

[msgkings322]

Even though the stats say the Giants have been average or so the past few years. Offensive woes have always been associated with the past few Giants teams.

I would point to historically elite pitching not being so as the main culprit.

Agreed, but even great pitching this year wouldn't have been able to drag this offensive offense to the playoffs, just like 2011. We'd have been on the right side of .500 though